IUBB vs Elon - Tuesday, 12/20/22 @ 7:00 on BTN

[Chris007 43,886]

3 minutes ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:

I think Geronimo does deserve more minutes.  I'm in that crowd for sure.  Where he gets them is the problem.  TJD is going to play a lot.  Race is going to play a lot.  Reneau maybe should be playing more.  Kopp is going to play a lot.  Galloway is the guy I think could have a cut in minutes but he's a positional need, especially now that X has gone down.   It's unfortunate because i think he is better than what we are getting out of him.  This isn't surprising to me in the sense we have some unhappy guys with PT.   All these guys feel like they deserve minutes.  Some of them actually do.  Not easy.

I have not seen anything this season that says Geronimo should play more. He still can't handle the ball and play the 3, he's too small for the 4. He's said he's going to transfer 2 seasons in a row. I'm playing others instead. and if he's late for the bus one more time leave him.

[Uspshoosier 45,571]

39 minutes ago, Chris007 said:

With the rest of the season being conference games our SOS is only going to go up correct? Should finish in the top 20?

Yeah SOS should definitely be top 20.   Non con can still change but anything under 100 is a solid non con Sos.   Last year IU non con was 198 or around there and Sos was 31 

[Certified Sunshine Pumper 9,058]

1 hour ago, Stuhoo said:

In my opinion there are three guards/wings that truly get into their man on the defensive end and force turnovers:

1. Xavier Johnson
2. Trey Galloway, and
3. CJ Gunn

Moreover, while Gunn is shooting a low percentage currently, that quick release + form is a jumper is destined to go in a lot.

Defensive intensity, length, distance shooter,  can finish at the rim, and low turnovers - especially for a freshman. And to me he does the one thing that Woody repeatedly says makes it all possible; he plays damn hard and does so consistently.

For me? Bates is a far better player than he was last year, but he doesn't get to the rim and his defensive recognition and intensity really sucks. 

Play CJ Gunn.

You surely aren't saying play Gunn over Bates? Tamar is shooting 42% from 3 to CJs 13%. 

If Gunn gets mins..  it'll be "JGs mins" and Kopp playing the 4, some... and maybe even TG.. which doesn't bother me. We aren't skilled enough when JG plays the 4, hell we aren't skilled enough with Race at the 4. 

[Certified Sunshine Pumper 9,058]

16 minutes ago, Chris007 said:

I have not seen anything this season that says Geronimo should play more. He still can't handle the ball and play the 3, he's too small for the 4. He's said he's going to transfer 2 seasons in a row. I'm playing others instead. and if he's late for the bus one more time leave him.

I agree with everything but the fact JG is too small for the 4. Can't agree there. Wilson from KU is no bigger, probably less muscle, honestly. 

[Chris007 43,886]

4 minutes ago, btownqb said:

You surely aren't saying play Gunn over Bates? Tamar is shooting 42% from 3 to CJs 13%. 

If Gunn gets mins..  it'll be "JGs mins" and Kopp playing the 4, some... and maybe even TG.. which doesn't bother me. We aren't skilled enough when JG plays the 4, hell we aren't skilled enough with Race at the 4. 

My only complaint with Tamar is good teams just abuse him on defense. His defense hasn't gotten any better from last year. 

[Stuhoo 80,442]

7 minutes ago, btownqb said:

You surely aren't saying play Gunn over Bates? Tamar is shooting 42% from 3 to CJs 13%. 

If Gunn gets mins..  it'll be "JGs mins" and Kopp playing the 4, some... and maybe even TG.. which doesn't bother me. We aren't skilled enough when JG plays the 4, hell we aren't skilled enough with Race at the 4. 

I am, at least in part.

Of the three guys on the roster that (I believe) can provide a distance shooting threat, only Gunn and Kopp defend, and only Gunn can finish at the rim.

I appreciate that Bates is shooting it extremely well, but his defensive effort and recognition drive me nuts. I'm not saying Bates should get the Leal-mopup treatment, but I'd like to see CJ get more minutes than Bates.

[Certified Sunshine Pumper 9,058]

6 minutes ago, Chris007 said:

My only complaint with Tamar is good teams just abuse him on defense. His defense hasn't gotten any better from last year. 

Meh. Don't agree. 

[Certified Sunshine Pumper 9,058]

13 minutes ago, Stuhoo said:

I am, at least in part.

Of the three guys on the roster that (I believe) can provide a distance shooting threat, only Gunn and Kopp defend, and only Gunn can finish at the rim.

I appreciate that Bates is shooting it extremely well, but his defensive effort and recognition drive me nuts. I'm not saying Bates should get the Leal-mopup treatment, but I'd like to see CJ get more minutes than Bates.

Man. To each their own!

[DChoosier 8,312]

4 hours ago, IU Scott said:

Look at the schedule this week and everybody is playing these kind of games. You can't play 11 non conference games against top 50 teams.

There is a whole lot of runway between a top 50 team and 343rd ranked Elon. Yes, teams schedule mis-matches but I looked at a half dozen top tier teams and, as you stated they all have scheduled “cupcakes” for the holiday season, but 5/6 are not playing sub-300 teams. We play some very sugary cupcakes.

“Cupcakes” cover a really wide range (150’sh - 363) and I’m not in favor of scheduling cupcakes like Elon (343) and Bethune Cookman (347) and Jackson State (301) as you don’t learn anything.  Our schedule has improved but would still like to swap the 3 teams above for schools in the 100-150 range (Indiana State, as an example, is 108).

[DChoosier 8,312]

47 minutes ago, Chris007 said:

I have not seen anything this season that says Geronimo should play more. He still can't handle the ball and play the 3, he's too small for the 4. He's said he's going to transfer 2 seasons in a row. I'm playing others instead. and if he's late for the bus one more time leave him.

I was hoping JG would stay this year because of his athletic ability, potential and he played hard when he got minutes.  But…here we are and he has already threatened to leave twice, he has not developed the skills to be a three and whose minutes would he take at the 4 (Race, Malik?)?  I will be very surprised if he comes back next year and wouldn’t be totally shocked if he left during this Xmas break.

[Certified Sunshine Pumper 9,058]

9 minutes ago, DChoosier said:

There is a whole lot of runway between a top 50 team and 343rd ranked Elon. Yes, teams schedule mis-matches but I looked at a half dozen top tier teams and, as you stated they all have scheduled “cupcakes” for the holiday season, but 5/6 are not playing sub-300 teams. We play some very sugary cupcakes.

“Cupcakes” cover a really wide range (150’sh - 363) and I’m not in favor of scheduling cupcakes like Elon (343) and Bethune Cookman (347) and Jackson State (301) as you don’t learn anything.  Our schedule has improved but would still like to swap the 3 teams above for schools in the 100-150 range (Indiana State, as an example, is 108).

Why wouldn't we learn anything? That's not true at all.  That was a great game for our young guys. 

[DChoosier 8,312]

4 minutes ago, btownqb said:

Why wouldn't we learn anything? That's not true at all.  That was a great game for our young guys. 

We learned they can play against crappy competition ( just like guys like Damezi looked good).

We learned that we can let guys get past us on D but still recover and block their shots.

We learned we can go inside against smaller guys.

ie…I don’t think those games are helpful but…..I’m sure you will disagree :)

[Hoosierfan2017 21,229]

8 minutes ago, DChoosier said:

I was hoping JG would stay this year because of his athletic ability, potential and he played hard when he got minutes.  But…here we are and he has already threatened to leave twice, he has not developed the skills to be a three and whose minutes would he take at the 4 (Race, Malik?)?  I will be very surprised if he comes back next year and wouldn’t be totally shocked if he left during this Xmas break.

The way he’s threatened to leave twice really rubs me the wrong way. Like, dude, if you want to go then go. You aren’t good enough for us to beg you to stay. If you want more minutes, develop perimeter skills. There’s a gaping hole at the 3. If you can’t play there, that’s on you. 

[Chris007 43,886]

1 minute ago, DChoosier said:

We learned they can play against crappy competition ( just like guys like Damezi looked good).

We learned that we can let guys get past us on D but still recover and block their shots.

We learned we can go inside against smaller guys.

ie…I don’t think those games are helpful but…..I’m sure you will disagree :)

I learned that Gunn & Duncomb looked like they belong. I learned that Banks will be ok. I also learned that I think the future is going to be fine without TJD, Race, X and Miller. I know that's a lot but I'm a quick learner

[Certified Sunshine Pumper 9,058]

4 minutes ago, DChoosier said:

We learned they can play against crappy competition ( just like guys like Damezi looked good).

We learned that we can let guys get past us on D but still recover and block their shots.

We learned we can go inside against smaller guys.

ie…I don’t think those games are helpful but…..I’m sure you will disagree :)

Of course I do. There's a ton from last night that they can learn from... and they could do that without the pressures of losing a game. Seems very simple. :)

[JSHoosier 20,085]

3 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

The way he’s threatened to leave twice really rubs me the wrong way. Like, dude, if you want to go then go. You aren’t good enough for us to beg you to stay. If you want more minutes, develop perimeter skills. There’s a gaping hole at the 3. If you can’t play there, that’s on you. 

Yeah, at that point just leave.  I'm with Chris, of he's late for the bus again then leave him.  He's averaging the same minutes (slightly more) as last year but rebounding worse and shooting sucks.

[str8baller 5,207]

2 hours ago, Uspshoosier said:

 

IU’s NET Sos is 45 with a non con SOS of 55.   That’s with the 300 + cupcakes on the schedule.

 

(I reread this and it sounds like I’m arguing with you. I think we both mostly agree here, but I’ll leave the comment below since I already typed it out this way on my phone…lol) 
 

Averaging out great and really bad opponents is fine for your computer ranking.* But that’s not how it works in real life to prepare and improve your team. 
 

Playing a 300+ team is basically a wasted night in terms of development, because you don’t get pushed at all. That time isn’t off-set in real life by going to Kansas and getting killed. 
 

Yes, we get more money. But that’s a poor excuse to handicap your team. We have more money than Purdue, and the worst team they’ve played so far is about 260 in Kenpom. We’ve played 6 teams worse than that. That’ll change a little as PU is about to play 2 awful teams, but by this point they’ve already played 11 mostly solid opponents and are hitting on all cylinders with a fairly young backcourt.  
 

 

*I’m fine using NET for discussion since the committee does, but it’s fairly useless as a predictor unless they release their formula to be examined. For comparison our SoS is 163 in Kenpom which is 2nd worst in the top 20. 

[DChoosier 8,312]

21 minutes ago, Chris007 said:

I learned that Gunn & Duncomb looked like they belong. I learned that Banks will be ok. I also learned that I think the future is going to be fine without TJD, Race, X and Miller. I know that's a lot but I'm a quick learner

I agree you are a quick learner :)

but….my opinion of Gunn and Duncomb didn’t change at all last night. I thought they belonged prior to last night and still think that way. I’m  not for turning those sub 300 games into top 50 games but do think it would be beneficial to see those guys against Indiana State, as an example, instead of 300 plus teams. Lander had a cupcake game last year with 9 points, 6 boards, 2-2 FT,  and 6 assists which proved…..nothing.

[IU Scott 2,375]

58 minutes ago, DChoosier said:

We learned they can play against crappy competition ( just like guys like Damezi looked good).

We learned that we can let guys get past us on D but still recover and block their shots.

We learned we can go inside against smaller guys.

ie…I don’t think those games are helpful but…..I’m sure you will disagree :)

It gives guys like Gunn and Banks some confidence that they can actually contribute. When they get back chance to play against the better teams they will be more ready to play

[Uspshoosier 45,571]

34 minutes ago, str8baller said:

(I reread this and it sounds like I’m arguing with you. I think we both mostly agree here, but I’ll leave the comment below since I already typed it out this way on my phone…lol) 
 

Averaging out great and really bad opponents is fine for your computer ranking.* But that’s not how it works in real life to prepare and improve your team. 
 

Playing a 300+ team is basically a wasted night in terms of development, because you don’t get pushed at all. That time isn’t off-set in real life by going to Kansas and getting killed. 
 

Yes, we get more money. But that’s a poor excuse to handicap your team. We have more money than Purdue, and the worst team they’ve played so far is about 260 in Kenpom. We’ve played 6 teams worse than that. That’ll change a little as PU is about to play 2 awful teams, but by this point they’ve already played 11 mostly solid opponents and are hitting on all cylinders with a fairly young backcourt.  
 

 

*I’m fine using NET for discussion since the committee does, but it’s fairly useless as a predictor unless they release their formula to be examined. For comparison our SoS is 163 in Kenpom which is 2nd worst in the top 20. 

Yeah I’m not saying it’s right or wrong to schedule that way just pointing out that coaches will take the less resistant path to the NCAA tourney.   Coaches with less job security need to win games and still make the tourney.   Coaches like Self, Izzo, Cal can afford to take a gamble with their schedule but most can’t and won’t.    Money thing was an issue when Miller first was hired.   He was amazed at the budget for the buy games especially at a place like IU.   Should be public record what teams get for each game to come play at places.    Big difference between the 300 + and they upper mid majors.   IU wasn’t willing to fork out the extra money then and I’m not sure about now.     With the NET  it really doesn’t matter if it’s a good indicator or not that’s what the committee uses and that’s the only 1 coaches should pay attention to.    Coaches are going to do what’s best for their program that puts them in the best position to make the tourney because at the end of the day that’s what it’s all about.   Would I like to see them play better teams instead of some of these teams absolutely but I also know the other side of it and understand why they don’t.   My guess is you will see IU’s schedule the same for the years to come until they make multiple tourneys in a row and have deep runs then maybe you will see a change in the schedule