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I've consistently said when Archie's recruits are upper classmen, it's reasonable to expect "winning," but how is that defined?   You define it with the record you indicated above, and I don't think that's unfair.  I also don't think it tells the whole story.   
It doesn't show, for example that Indiana beat Florida State, which ended up being the best win in the Big Ten this season for ANY team.  It doesn't show that Indiana basically took a crap in a few games (Arkansas, Rutgers, both Purdue games, and the end of the Maryland and Illinois games as examples) which easily could have turned that record from 20-12/ 9-11 to at least 23-9 / 11-9 and a finish at 5th/6th place or so.   I think that would have been a reasonable ceiling for this particular team.  
It doesn't show Indiana as being ranked #34 in Sagarin or since December 3rd having the #1 toughest schedule in the country.  It doesn't take into account the 8 wins vs that Sagarin top 50 teams.  Only 13 teams in the country had more.  It also doesn't take into account that senior you mentioned and his robbing his team of at least 5 possessions EVERY damned game.  And he did.  Inarguably.
Next year and the year following will tell the story, as will the 2021 recruiting class.   I think Indiana is a hell of a lot closer than their final record indicated, but if "you are who your record says you are," then I can see the other side of that argument.

Record shows they had 0 losses outside NET 43. 8 of their 12 losses on the road to top 39 teams. 2 of their 4 home losses to teams that tied for first in the B1G( both winnable games). And they had 9 top 60 wins. But like you have said before people only see what they want to see. For me I think they are closer then some think but that’s just my opinion. I’m looking forward to next year


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1 hour ago, Old Friend said:

I've consistently said when Archie's recruits are upper classmen, it's reasonable to expect "winning," but how is that defined?   You define it with the record you indicated above, and I don't think that's unfair.  I also don't think it tells the whole story.   

It doesn't show, for example that Indiana beat Florida State, which ended up being the best win in the Big Ten this season for ANY team.  It doesn't show that Indiana basically took a crap in a few games (Arkansas, Rutgers, both Purdue games, and the end of the Maryland and Illinois games as examples) which easily could have turned that record from 20-12/ 9-11 to at least 23-9 / 11-9 and a finish at 5th/6th place or so.   I think that would have been a reasonable ceiling for this particular team.  

It doesn't show Indiana as being ranked #34 in Sagarin or since December 3rd having the #1 toughest schedule in the country.  It doesn't take into account the 8 wins vs that Sagarin top 50 teams.  Only 13 teams in the country had more.  It also doesn't take into account that senior you mentioned and his robbing his team of at least 5 possessions EVERY damned game.  And he did.  Inarguably.

Next year and the year following will tell the story, as will the 2021 recruiting class.   I think Indiana is a hell of a lot closer than their final record indicated, but if "you are who your record says you are," then I can see the other side of that argument.

Actually we agree on pretty much every point.

I agree the record does not tell the whole story and, although it was not clear, my reference of the 9-11 conf record was not how I meant to define the season. What I meant by mentioning 9-11 was after three years I can see why there is some restlessness and think we are getting beyond saying people have “right now” attitudes because he is going into his fourth (not first or second) season. 

I’m looking forward to next year, especially if we can consistently play (ie show up) the way we did the last 4 regular season games. Although we went 1-3 it was a four game stretch of playing hard, with less TO’s, better defense, the offense getting a lot of good shots (but missing a ton of bunnies),  fewer 30 foot hedges by our big men, seeing that Race and Hunter “belong”, etc. ie...it was encouraging in spite of the record. 
I think the “changing of the guard” from a player leadership perspective will be a big positive but am still a bit concerned about our offense on the perimeter. Would sure like to see a couple of consistent outside threats to help open up TJD underneath.

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14 hours ago, DChoosier said:

Actually we agree on pretty much every point.

I agree the record does not tell the whole story and, although it was not clear, my reference of the 9-11 conf record was not how I meant to define the season. What I meant by mentioning 9-11 was after three years I can see why there is some restlessness and think we are getting beyond saying people have “right now” attitudes because he is going into his fourth (not first or second) season. 

I’m looking forward to next year, especially if we can consistently play (ie show up) the way we did the last 4 regular season games. Although we went 1-3 it was a four game stretch of playing hard, with less TO’s, better defense, the offense getting a lot of good shots (but missing a ton of bunnies),  fewer 30 foot hedges by our big men, seeing that Race and Hunter “belong”, etc. ie...it was encouraging in spite of the record. 
I think the “changing of the guard” from a player leadership perspective will be a big positive but am still a bit concerned about our offense on the perimeter. Would sure like to see a couple of consistent outside threats to help open up TJD underneath.

1)  The blitzing of ball screens by our bigs was the absolute worst.  Michigan, with a rookie coach, just abused that.   I was really upset about that as well, and completely agree with you.  Very happy that adjustment was made, but disappointed that it had to be.

2)   We are getting plenty of perimeter help.    Leal can flat stroke it.  Lander is a really solid shooter.  Geronimo can shoot it.  And I'm also betting Phinisee, Franklin, and especially Hunter really show their ability to shoot it as well.   That Hunter has 3 more years left excites the hell out of me.   Did you know Indiana was actually 12 made three's away from being in the top 100 in the country by %?  I saw that the other day and it floored me.

3)  Missed shots were a huge problem all season.  Good Lord, had Indiana made just a few of them, the record would have been 3-4 games better at least.

Sometimes the eyeball test is different than the numbers, and I think that's the case here.  In any case, the team has improved every year under Archie and recruiting is just fine.   I'm bullish, even if we're not "there" yet.

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