Myth: You don’t need a go to guy to compete for Nat’l titles.

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich]

I know there are some out there who believe team ball is the only way. No one should ever go outside the team ball and go get their own. That’s bad basketball or selfish and will hurt the team. But to compete for national titles, you have to have at least 1 guy on the team who can go score or create, on or off the ball. And by off ball, I’m talking guys like JJ Redick. Duke might have not won a title with him, but Duke was good when he was there and I’d love for Indiana to be on that level with a guy like that playing for us. Now I think we have 1 guy on the roster who could turn into a go to guy in Trayce Jackson-Davis. I’m hoping he works on his jumpshot and offense over the summer and becomes a guy who can go get his own when we need it. I also believe Lander can be that guy which we really need from the guard spot because we don’t have one right now. Now to those who say they aren’t needed to compete for titles, let’s look at some teams who have won titles who play team ball.

Last year Virginia has Guy, Jerome Hunter.

2018, Nova had Brunson, DiVincenzo, Spellman, Paschall.

2017, UNC has Jackson, Meeks, Berry, Pinson.

2016, Nova has Brunson, Hart, Jenkins, Ochefu.

2015, Duke has Okafor, Jokes, Cook, Winslow.

2014, UConn has Napier and Boatright.

2013(not that the title counts), Louisville had Russ Smith and Siva.

2012, UK had Davis and MKG.

2011, UConn had Kemba.

2010, Duke has Singler and Kelley.

2009, UNC had Lawson and Hansbrough

2008, Kansas has Brandon Rush.

2006 and 2007, Florida... they pulled it off as a team without one guy really sticking out.

2005, UNC has May, McCants and Felton.

2004, UConn had Ben Gordon.

2003, Cuse has Melo

2002, Maryland had Dixon and Blake

 

Now some other guys who raised the level of teams like Buddy Hield at Oklahoma, Stephen Curry at Davidson, Cody Zeller at Indiana, Burke and Hardaway at Michigan, Kaminsky and Dekker at Wisconsin, Winston at Michigan State, Cowan and Smith at Maryland etc etc.

 

I want to see TJD and Lander belonging in this type of group and those two have that kind of talent themselves. You just need a really good team and them a couple guys who can raise the bar when needed. I think we can compete for a Big Ten title next season and those two will be a huge reason why. If the right moves and changes are made this off season, we could make a run to the E8 at least next March.

 

 

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[mdn82]

I really don’t know what to say to all of this. Honestly you just don’t understand what people are saying. Nobody has ever said a player can’t get his in a team ball environment. That’s you making that assumption. Of course you need alpha players to win. This just goes to show the difference in understanding and why we are where we are. We as fans here who are old enough to know want a system in place that gets the team playing cohesively on a regular basis. Teams you have listed have done that. Coach K, Bennett, and Wright don’t have plays that’s say go get yours. They run sets. They run plays to get their best players in a position to succeed. You can twist what people have been telling you, but this is all they want.

 

Edit: even iso plays there are screens to create mismatches. But whatevs

 

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[Brass Cannon]

Nobody is arguing this to my knowledge. 
 

Myth: You actually don’t need to water to live

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich]

I really don’t know what to say to all of this. Honestly you just don’t understand what people are saying. Nobody has ever said a player can’t get his in a team ball environment. That’s you making that assumption. Of course you need alpha players to win. This just goes to show the difference in understanding and why we are where we are. We as fans here who are old enough to know want a system in place that gets the team playing cohesively on a regular basis. Teams you have listed have done that. Coach K, Bennett, and Wright don’t have plays that’s say go get yours. They run sets. They run plays to get their best players in a position to succeed. You can twist what people have been telling you, but this is all they want.


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If you don’t think Bennett was letting Guy, Jerome and Hunter do their own when needed then you just didn’t care to pay attention. When you have guys like that, you have to. It’s normally when they are at their best. Brunson could take anyone in the country off the bounce in an isolation. Or UNC would just throw the ball to Hansbrough and get out of the way. They weren’t set plays. They were just that good. Those are the guys you have to have. Where a coach just says to throw it to them and get out of the way. Yes, there are people who believe you don’t need those guys to compete at a nationally high level, but you do. Whether it be UNC, Nova, Duke, MSU, Wisconsin, Butler, Cuse, Kansas or whoever.


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[mdn82]

Nobody is arguing this to my knowledge. 
 
Myth: You actually don’t need to water to live

The funny thing is he is still trying to argue semantics to beat something home that literally has zero use.


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[biteoftheapple]

Look at IU's last 3 banner teams. All 3 had a man to get his own, May, Alford, Thomas...but all 3 teams played within the framework of the team concept. The players understood their own role and played to their, and the team stenghths

 

 

[Hovadipo]

The guy that hates Virginia’s system and doesn’t care to watch it is now going to explain to everyone exactly how Virginia’s system works?

 

I have a hunch that this may play better on xavier.com than it does here. 

[Hovadipo]

Myth: this thread is worth reading

[Hovadipo]

Myth: BtownBanners will benefit from this knowledge being passed along.

[Hovadipo]

“Thith thread ith a myth”

-Mike Tyson

[mdn82]

Not a myth: we love Hova!


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[Old Friend]

I'm struggling to understand how someone....ANYone can think "team ball" means you don't have high level players within a successful team system.  The abject density it takes to formulate that opinion is shocking to me.  

Every single team which has ever won anything had guys. And usually, they have a guy who steps up in big moments, a-la Keith Smart in the 2nd half in the final; but he wasn't "the guy" on that team.  Alford was.  Thomas after him.   Indiana has guys now.  Indiana does not have upper classmen "guys."  Indiana does not necessarily play a championship caliber brand of basketball all the time, but Indiana has guys and more guys coming.

Having good players does not mean those guys are going to win in an isolation/ball dominant system.  The last player I remember winning a title that way was Carmelo Anthony, and Syracuse's defense that year was among the best in the country by any measure.  Yes...team defense.  So even that example from 17 years ago is a reach.  Do you think the teams you listed above did NOT play as a unit?  Did NOT utilize team concepts on both ends of the floor?   Do you think you can win in today's college basketball without playing well as a team?

Among the coaches listed above, you have Bill Self, Mike Krysiewski, Roy Williams, Billy Donovan, Jay Wright, Rick Pitino, and Jim Calhoun.  Stop me when ANY of those guys focused on an individual or isolation game to win.  A couple were more defensively focused, but ALL utilize ball movement; secondary break; and either a lot of talent or a lot of experience.    None....I repeat NONE have successful experience in the NBA which IS an isolation game to a degree.

How does having "guys" equate to the opposite of "team ball?"   Seriously....to come up with that argument is an incredibly ignorant reach.  And if you're arguing that Archie is trying to play "team ball" without guys, I offer you the three 5-star recruits in 3 seasons, and the multiple 4-star guys as well.

You're looking for, and have BEEN looking for immediate results from a guy and a system that takes time.   This is year three.  It's been and will finish better than year two, which was better than year one.  Is it a finished product yet?  Nope.  So what exactly is your point?

[Stuhoo]

Tony Bennett in a huddle:

"Guys, let's clear out for Ty Jerome, 'cause he's gonna get his own" 

lololololololololollololololololololollololololololololollololololololololollololololololololol

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich]

Tony Bennett in a huddle:
"Guys, let's clear out for Ty Jerome, 'cause he's gonna get his own" 
lololololololololollololololololololollololololololololollololololololololollololololololololol

He didn’t have to. Bennett can’t do that this season but last season he gave quite a bit of control to his Big 3. He’s considered a strict coach when it comes to the system the play but smart coaches know when they have something. Bo Ryan did the same with Kaminsky and Dekker. Just like Knight handed the keys over to Zeke, which was clearly a great decision.


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[Loaded Chicken Sandwich]

I'm struggling to understand how someone....ANYone can think "team ball" means you don't have high level players within a successful team system.  The abject density it takes to formulate that opinion is shocking to me.  
Every single team which has ever won anything had guys. And usually, they have a guy who steps up in big moments, a-la Keith Smart in the 2nd half in the final; but he wasn't "the guy" on that team.  Alford was.  Thomas after him.   Indiana has guys now.  Indiana does not have upper classmen "guys."  Indiana does not necessarily play a championship caliber brand of basketball all the time, but Indiana has guys and more guys coming.
Having good players does not mean those guys are going to win in an isolation/ball dominant system.  The last player I remember winning a title that way was Carmelo Anthony, and Syracuse's defense that year was among the best in the country by any measure.  Yes...team defense.  So even that example from 17 years ago is a reach.  Do you think the teams you listed above did NOT play as a unit?  Did NOT utilize team concepts on both ends of the floor?   Do you think you can win in today's college basketball without playing well as a team?
Among the coaches listed above, you have Bill Self, Mike Krysiewski, Roy Williams, Billy Donovan, Jay Wright, Rick Pitino, and Jim Calhoun.  Stop me when ANY of those guys focused on an individual or isolation game to win.  A couple were more defensively focused, but ALL utilize ball movement; secondary break; and either a lot of talent or a lot of experience.    None....I repeat NONE have successful experience in the NBA which IS an isolation game to a degree.
How does having "guys" equate to the opposite of "team ball?"   Seriously....to come up with that argument is an incredibly ignorant reach.  And if you're arguing that Archie is trying to play "team ball" without guys, I offer you the three 5-star recruits in 3 seasons, and the multiple 4-star guys as well.
You're looking for, and have BEEN looking for immediate results from a guy and a system that takes time.   This is year three.  It's been and will finish better than year two, which was better than year one.  Is it a finished product yet?  Nope.  So what exactly is your point?

Well you’ve argued against having guys who are great at playing iso. Because you think of Devonte Green rather than Jimmer.


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[Stuhoo]

The system is designed to get shots to players in position to succeed.

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich]

The system is designed to get shots to players in position to succeed.

Correct. But there were times last season where he let those 3 do what they had to outside of that system and it worked. Because those 3 were that good.


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[Loaded Chicken Sandwich]

The guy that hates Virginia’s system and doesn’t care to watch it is now going to explain to everyone exactly how Virginia’s system works?
 
I have a hunch that this may play better on xavier.com than it does here. 

But you’re right. I don’t like their system. It’s too slow. But look at how 3 very good players who could go iso when needed boosted them to a title. And Bennett loosened the leash on those 3 last season.


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[Uspshoosier]

The system is designed to get shots to players in position to succeed.

I posted an article last year on Virginia’s offense. They actually played at a slower pace in the tournament last year. The year before after they lost to UMBC, Bennett talked to an old teammate that was a coach and he recommended going from their Blocker Mover offense with the personal they had. (That’s the offense his dad invented and an offense that Archie has tried some this year) to a ball screen continuity offense(Virginia calls it Flow). Talent is still the key but he still had an offensive system in place called Flow that they ran. Virginia ran Flow 23 times against Oklahoma in the second round last year and scored 29 pts. They ran blocker-mover 4 times in same half and didn’t score.


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[Loaded Chicken Sandwich]

I posted an article last year on Virginia’s offense. They actually played at a slower pace in the tournament last year. The year before after they lost to UMBC, Bennett talked to an old teammate that was a coach and he recommended going from their Blocker Mover offense with the personal they had. (That’s the offense his dad invented and an offense that Archie has tried some this year) to a ball screen continuity offense(Virginia calls it Flow). Talent is still the key but he still had an offensive system in place called Flow that they ran. Virginia ran Flow 23 times against Oklahoma in the second round last year and scored 29 pts. They ran blocker-mover 4 times in same half and didn’t score.


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It’s not that they don’t have a system. I’m saying you have to have both if you really want to compete at the highest level. You need the system and dudes who can go score when you need it. Sometimes the system just won’t do it at a specific time. We had it with Yogi. His senior year, sometimes had to go outside the system and do it himself.


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