The Season Is Finally Over, Now Where Does This Program Go?

[Bailey7878]

That’s great. Unfortunately, here we are. Archie isn’t mediocre just because the program has bottomed up in the past two decades. It’s going to take a lot of work to build Indiana back up to where everyone expects.


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If I were grading him for the first two years I would give him a C-. That needs to be up to a B after next year imo.

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[Bailey7878]

Agreed, on the mediocrity pertaining to coaching! Proof is in the pudding, see Ohio State last 3 mins at Assembly Hall! We missed on Holtmann!


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You mean fred missed. Are you really surprised though?

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[DChoosier]

35 minutes ago, Feathery said:

Most? I see 2 with wins in the NCAA, Hopkins and Holtmann. Archie is on schedule. If he made the NCAAT this season he would have been ahead of schedule. 

These are only opinions, of course, but I don’t see how you think he is on schedule.  Due to the injuries I’d give him a C so far with the sincere hope that he aces the next 20 years.  I just have a tough time agreeing a coach that started with Romeo and Morgan, has not instilled his supposed “tough guy” mentality after two years, loses 12/13, watches Smith “dog it” in first halves but starts him in the second and has multiple games in which players openly admit they did not bring it...including a virtual play-in game against OSU, is on schedule.  

[Feathery]

16 minutes ago, 8bucks said:

Being “on schedule” might be accurate on the macro level but since we look at things in the micro level it is good to get this macro reminder. That being said, there are legitimate concerns that developed this year on the micro level.

That mid season slide, questions about his ability to coach a one and done, currently stalled recruiting, challenges getting players to play with effort, 3pt and FF shooting, and limited examples of player development (that differentiate us from other teams our level) are all red flags that give concern that Archie may have trouble becoming a top tier coach at IU.

I am hopeful Archie can get it done here and that we can somehow build a strong team (like Purdue did this year) with unheralded players. But there are many legitimate concerns after 2 years. Most of these concerns are just unresolved questions at this point. Some are acting as if Archie is definitely bad in these areas and we just don’t have enough information to conclude yet.

I would feel a lot better if we had fallen a little short but had competed hard every game. I would also feel better had our recruiting momentum not stalled. I still have hope but i would have hoped our list of doubts about our coach would have shrunk but the way this year went that list got bigger for me.


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Good post. 

I don’t think recruiting has stalled at all. We are bringing in a 5* McD All American and another top Indiana kid. I’m bullish on Franklin after watching him play. He is much better than previous IU commits and players who were ranked higher, Ron Patterson and Jeremy Hollowell. Stalled would be bringing in a few 3*’s. The class isn’t finished yet, but I hope we get some veteran transfers to help with “getting old”  

I listened to a interesting take on one and dones by Seth Greenberg. His take on one and dones are you don’t take them as a developing team, unless you can get several at once. He pointed out several examples of it not working. That is creates locker room issues bc of jealousy. Nobody is there who is going through what the one and done is going through. So it makes it tough. This wasn’t something that I had really thought about before. 

[8bucks]

Good post. 
I don’t think recruiting has stalled at all. We are bringing in a 5* McD All American and another top Indiana kid. I’m bullish on Franklin after watching him play. He is much better than previous IU commits and players who were ranked higher, Ron Patterson and Jeremy Hollowell. Stalled would be bringing in a few 3*’s. The class isn’t finished yet, but I hope we get some veteran transfers to help with “getting old”  
I listened to a interesting take on one and dones by Seth Greenberg. His take on one and dones are you don’t take them as a developing team, unless you can get several at once. He pointed out several examples of it not working. That is creates locker room issues bc of jealousy. Nobody is there who is going through what the one and done is going through. So it makes it tough. This wasn’t something that I had really thought about before. 

I like both Franklin and TJD but they committed back in the fall. Since then recruiting “seems” to have stalled. No one knows what traction we really have behind the scenes with kids and it is possible that the staff is being patient. However, there is a legitimate concern now that since the fall our recruiting has stalled.


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[Feathery]

4 minutes ago, DChoosier said:

These are only opinions, of course, but I don’t see how you think he is on schedule.  Due to the injuries I’d give him a C so far with the sincere hope that he aces the next 20 years.  I just have a tough time agreeing a coach that started with Romeo and Morgan, has not instilled his supposed “tough guy” mentality after two years, loses 12/13, watches Smith “dog it” in first halves but starts him in the second and has multiple games in which players openly admit they did not bring it...including a virtual play-in game against OSU, is on schedule.  

Yep, they are opinions. My expectations for any coach coming in (Same for Crean a decade ago) was and still is:

Year 1: Stabilize the program. Recruit well. Build lasting recruiting ties within the state.

Year 2: stack a 2nd recruiting class and increase the win total. 

Year 3: make the NCAA tournament, stack a 3rd class. 

Year 4: Make the 2nd weekend, Stack a 4th class. 

How the moving parts happen, I don’t care.  Is there room for improvement? Sure. No coach is perfect and there will be growth opportunities for Archie. But overall, he is on schedule and needs to continue that trajectory.  Now if we stall and don’t make the NCAA next year, then I’ll be with you on being concerned. 

 

[Rookie33]

2 win away from being the top coach of 2nd year coaches. Considering the injuries and losing streak, this gives me some needed optimism.

And the competition in the B1G was a tad better/harder than the others ahead of CAM....


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[Hillsdale87]

I like both Franklin and TJD but they committed back in the fall. Since then recruiting “seems” to have stalled. No one knows what traction we really have behind the scenes with kids and it is possible that the staff is being patient. However, there is a legitimate concern now that since the fall our recruiting has stalled.


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We've missed on one target since then and none of our other targets have committed anywhere. Recruiting is generally slow in all of college basketball during the season. Seems a bit premature to make any judgments. Let's see who Archie gets this spring before saying anything about recruiting momentum


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[Feathery]

6 minutes ago, 8bucks said:

I like both Franklin and TJD but they committed back in the fall. Since then recruiting “seems” to have stalled. No one knows what traction we really have behind the scenes with kids and it is possible that the staff is being patient. However, there is a legitimate concern now that since the fall our recruiting has stalled.


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I think they are being patient. I’ve got some friends who want IU to pass on Leal. I think you need to take him, as he is a hometown kid who gets it. He will put his heart and soul into being a Hoosier. To me that goes along way for developing the kind of culture Archie wants. He might not be a top 50 kid nationally, but last I looked he is a top 75/100, 4 year kid. 

[8bucks]

We didn’t have another scholarship until Moore put his name in the portal yesterday. We missed out one 1 kid, Brooks. That’s not stalling. We are looking at bringing in grad transfers at this point. Which is a smart move, considering what I think the Big Ten will look next year. 

My point isn’t that recruiting has stalled but that there are a lot of new questions right now regarding whether or not Archie is the guy or not. True missing on one recruit does not definitively equal stalled but it does currently add more doubt.

That was the point of my post. That while the macro measure of where we are after 2 years may suggest we are on schedule there are several micro concerns surrounding Archie and the program. I am hopeful that we start to see things that answer some of these questions or resolve the doubt but for now they are fair concerns.

For example, if we go and pick up some legitimate recruits or grad transfers (especially ones that are likely to play a big role) then that will he’ll resolve my concerns that recruiting has stalled. Brink would be a good get but probably not at the TJD or even Franklin level.


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[DChoosier]

4 minutes ago, Feathery said:

I think they are being patient. I’ve got some friends who want IU to pass on Leal. I think you need to take him, as he is a hometown kid who gets it. He will put his heart and soul into being a Hoosier. To me that goes along way for developing the kind of culture Archie wants. He might not be a top 50 kid nationally, but last I looked he is a top 75/100, 4 year kid. 

I’m with you on this if he projects (I have no idea) to be at least a decent backup. In another thread I mentioned hearing a Brian Snow podcast in which he said none of the last three Indiana native 5 stars (TJD, Brooks, Romeo) grew up being IU fans. Culturally/program/locker room I think the program needs some players that bleed IU.

[Feathery]

11 minutes ago, 8bucks said:

My point isn’t that recruiting has stalled but that there are a lot of new questions right now regarding whether or not Archie is the guy or not. True missing on one recruit does not definitively equal stalled but it does currently add more doubt.

That was the point of my post. That while the macro measure of where we are after 2 years may suggest we are on schedule there are several micro concerns surrounding Archie and the program. I am hopeful that we start to see things that answer some of these questions or resolve the doubt but for now they are fair concerns.

For example, if we go and pick up some legitimate recruits or grad transfers (especially ones that are likely to play a big role) then that will he’ll resolve my concerns that recruiting has stalled. Brink would be a good get but probably not at the TJD or even Franklin level.


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I agree that there are questions. I guess what I keep debating people in is that it’s premature to make that decision or be concerned. Archie is going to get 4-5 years regardless of what the fans worry about. So I’m taking a wait and see approach. 

[8bucks]

I agree that there are questions. I guess what I keep debating people in is that it’s premature to make that decision or be concerned. Archie is going to get 4-5 years regardless of what the fans worry about. So I’m taking a wait and see approach. 

I agree but Archie has to progress next year and answer some of these questions. If the list of questions grows or next year is worse then I don’t think he will get to 4-5 years.

Some of the questions aren’t that hard to answer. As you mentioned with Leal, that might be another Franklin like pick up and if he gets some more commits ranked somewhere between him and where Hunter was I think that will be a healthy strategy over the long haul.


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[MoyeNeeded]

1 hour ago, Bailey7878 said:

You mean fred missed. Are you really surprised though?

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Holtmann wasn't interested in the job.

[Feathery]

21 minutes ago, 8bucks said:

I agree but Archie has to progress next year and answer some of these questions. If the list of questions grows or next year is worse then I don’t think he will get to 4-5 years.

Some of the questions aren’t that hard to answer. As you mentioned with Leal, that might be another Franklin like pick up and if he gets some more commits ranked somewhere between him and where Hunter was I think that will be a healthy strategy over the long haul.


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He will make year 4 regardless of results next year. His seat could be hot by fans but he isn’t going anywhere until after year 4 at the soonest. By then all the questions will he answered.

[Bailey7878]

He will make year 4 regardless of results next year. His seat could be hot by fans but he isn’t going anywhere until after year 4 at the soonest. By then all the questions will he answered.

Case closed.

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[jonz44]

2 hours ago, DChoosier said:

I’m with you on this if he projects (I have no idea) to be at least a decent backup. In another thread I mentioned hearing a Brian Snow podcast in which he said none of the last three Indiana native 5 stars (TJD, Brooks, Romeo) grew up being IU fans. Culturally/program/locker room I think the program needs some players that bleed IU.

Players don't have to grow up being IU fans to be willing to come here and put their heart and soul into helping build a winning program. They just need a burning desire to succeed. 

[DChoosier]

1 minute ago, jonz44 said:

Players don't have to grow up being IU fans to be willing to come here and put their heart and soul into helping build a winning program. They just need a burning desire to succeed. 

I’m not saying they all (or even most) have to grow up loving IU but having a couple would be nice.

[jonz44]

4 minutes ago, DChoosier said:

I’m not saying they all (or even most) have to grow up loving IU but having a couple would be nice.

Do you think that most recruits are sold on the school's history or the history of the coach and their relationship with him? I feel it's the latter. When I look at our teams history the last 20 years or so it seems the majority of our most passionate players have come from out of state. I think recruiting has changed and became so national now that if you're going to be elite you have to go national. 

[8bucks]

Do you think that most recruits are sold on the school's history or the history of the coach and their relationship with him? I feel it's the latter. When I look at our teams history the last 20 years or so it seems the majority of our most passionate players have come from out of state. I think recruiting has changed and became so national now that if you're going to be elite you have to go national. 

We still have a lot of fans that would have grown up passionately dreaming of playing for IU. Unfortunately, we are all in our 40s and 50s now.

I have been promoting the IU idea to my kids for nearly 30 years and outside of a couple of teams we have not had anything for kids to be passionate about.

Sad but true state of the program.


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