Morgan Ellison to miss rest of spring season

[Josh]

57 minutes ago, Joe DeLow said:

If she was sleeping then yea. He doesn’t need to be around. Look for him to be at Ohio State, Michigan State or an SEC school next year.


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Amazing how you had your mind staunchly made up....until you actually heard some facts of the incident...

[LamarCheeks]

This is always what puzzles me in these situations: He was the star of the football team. He could've had all the consensual sex he wanted. Why did he have to assault someone? Or try to initiate sex when she was sleeping? ... It's the same with Cosby. He was the No. 1 star in the world. Why drug women? 

[Walking Boot of Doom]

1 hour ago, Joe DeLow said:

If she is sleeping then she has a legitimate inability to consent. She can consent while drunk. It is just a dumb decision due to to her dumb decision to get drunk.


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And it was Morgan Ellison's dumb decision to get drunk and engage in sexual activity with another drunk woman. As you said, there are consequences to the dumb decisions you make. Being raped isn't a decision.

You're taking a very hard stance with very little evidence or support of your stance. Those with way more information that you decided to take action that very heavily impacts the life of a young student athlete, a consequence I am certain they understand the gravity of.

It is he said, she said, and a group of individuals decided that what she said was supported strongly enough to remove someone from their school. Going to college and being a student athlete is a privilege. The panel clearly decided that Ellison had violated the terms of that privilege.

Personally, good riddance. Hope he receives counseling and help, and I hope she receives the help she needs as well. Removing Ellison is a good first step.  

[Walking Boot of Doom]

To Joe -

Ask yourself, what does this woman have to gain by lying about any of this? Literally nothing. Stop and ask yourself these questions, and it becomes clear why believing the victims is so important. Due process is needed in the courts. 

[mdn82]

This is always what puzzles me in these situations: He was the star of the football team. He could've had all the consensual sex he wanted. Why did he have to assault someone? Or try to initiate sex when she was sleeping? ... It's the same with Cosby. He was the No. 1 star in the world. Why drug women? 

Some people just get off on weird **** and just don’t deserve to be in society.


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[Brass Cannon]

19 minutes ago, Josh said:

Amazing how you had your mind staunchly made up....until you actually heard some facts of the incident...

That had been available all along

[Naturalhoosier]

32 minutes ago, Walking Boot of Doom said:

To Joe -

Ask yourself, what does this woman have to gain by lying about any of this? Literally nothing. Stop and ask yourself these questions, and it becomes clear why believing the victims is so important. Due process is needed in the courts. 

Personal vendetta?  There are a host of reasons.  To quote MDN, some people get off on weird ****.  This works in both directions. 

 

Not staying my personal opinion in one form or another just saying there are reasons. 

[Kepner]

56 minutes ago, LamarCheeks said:

This is always what puzzles me in these situations: He was the star of the football team. He could've had all the consensual sex he wanted. Why did he have to assault someone? Or try to initiate sex when she was sleeping? ... It's the same with Cosby. He was the No. 1 star in the world. Why drug women? 

Rape and sexual assault is not about sex. Like you said, they could have all the consensual sex they wanted.  It’s about power and control.

This is from Psychology Today:

“All about power

Despite its name, sexual abuse is more about power than it is about sex. Although the touch may be sexual, the words seductive or intimidating, and the violation physical, when someone rapes, assaults, or harasses, the motivation stems from the perpetrator’s need for dominance and control. In heterosexual and same-sex encounters, sex is the tool used to gain power over another person”

 

[Hoosierfan2017]

1 hour ago, Walking Boot of Doom said:

To Joe -

Ask yourself, what does this woman have to gain by lying about any of this? Literally nothing. Stop and ask yourself these questions, and it becomes clear why believing the victims is so important. Due process is needed in the courts. 

This isn't true at all. There are several reasons why a woman would make a false rape accusation. 

Guy hooks up with girl, guy ghosts her, girl feels used and looks for revenge. 

Girl hooks up with guy when she has a boyfriend, boyfriend finds out, girl needs a way out of it. 

Believing women by default is an incredibly dangerous philosophy. I hope you're never falsely accused of a crime. 

[Brass Cannon]

2 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

This isn't true at all. There are several reasons why a woman would make a false rape accusation. 

And yet it happens so rarely

[Hoosierfan2017]

1 minute ago, Brass Cannon said:

And yet it happens so rarely

I would much rather have a guilty man be set free than an innocent man be imprisoned. 

[Brass Cannon]

3 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

I would much rather have a guilty man be set free than an innocent man be imprisoned. 

Which has nothing to do with your gymnastics to justify doubting victims 

every crime has false accusers. By your logic we should lock up nobody. 

[Hoosierfan2017]

7 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said:

Which has nothing to do with your gymnastics to justify doubting victims 

every crime has false accusers. By your logic we should lock up nobody. 

The burden of proof is on the accuser, not the accused. 

[Stuhoo]

2 hours ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

The burden of proof is on the accuser, not the accused. 

 

In an administrative matter, the burden can often be on the accused! (i.e.; a fired employee at will)

In a civil matter the accuser is the purported victim and has the burden, but the burden is only "preponderance of the evidence"

In a criminal matter, the burden is on the government (that's the accuser of a crime). MUCH higher deprivation of freedom/level of punishment, and a MUCH higher burden of proof; "beyond a reasonable doubt."

IU Law School in the house, baybeeee!!!

[Hoosierfan2017]

10 minutes ago, Stuhoo said:

 

In an administrative matter, the burden can often be on the accused! (i.e.; a fired employee at will)

Inn a civil matter the accuser is the victim and has the burden, but the burden is "preponderance of the evidence"

In a criminal matter, the burden is on the government (that's the accuser of a crime). MUCH higher deprivation of freedom/level of punishment, and a MUCH higher burden of proof; "beyond a reasonable doubt."

IU Law School in the house, baybeeee!!!

What is your opinion on how involved schools should be in sexual assault allegations? While I can understand the argument behind schools being allowed to police their students, sexual assault is much more serious than investigating something like plagiarism or drinking in the dorms. You also have your schools that try covering sexual assault up (cough cough, MSU). If you take it out of their hands it seems like it'd be better for everyone. 

[Brass Cannon]

22 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

The burden of proof is on the accuser, not the accused. 

So every accusation should be thrown out because it could be false gotcha

[Hoosierfan2017]

2 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said:

So every accusation should be thrown out because it could be false gotcha

I really don't know where you're getting these things from, because it's certainly not from my comments. I think accusations should be investigated by the police. That's their job. Sexual assault, especially when it's he said/she said, is very tough to investigate. Who better to investigate than professionals who investigate crimes for a living?

[Brass Cannon]

Just now, Hoosierfan2017 said:

I really don't know where you're getting these things from, because it's certainly not from my comments. I think accusations should be investigated by the police. That's their job. Sexual assault, especially when it's he said/she said, is very tough to investigate. Who better to investigate than professionals who investigate crimes for a living?

That has nothing to do with whether or not somebody is believed. A court of law doesn’t have to prove something for it to be believed. 

The police more often than not decline to investigate rape. It’s a system designed prove the accused innocent regardless. 

So no belief should not be based on a flawed broken system. 

[Stuhoo]

23 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

What is your opinion on how involved schools should be in sexual assault allegations? While I can understand the argument behind schools being allowed to police their students, sexual assault is much more serious than investigating something like plagiarism or drinking in the dorms. You also have your schools that try covering sexual assault up (cough cough, MSU). If you take it out of their hands it seems like it'd be better for everyone. 

 

My take is that:

• Every situation is different.
• The school should involve law enforcement as early as possible.
• The attorneys representing the school want to learn as much as humanly possible, but not at the expense of creating conflicting witness statements or interfering with law enforcement.
• Because of those criteria, the school's attorneys usually (and IMO, appropriately) try to create a 'time-out bubble' for the accused while the facts sort out.

These are not opinions formed at IU law school; they are formed from real world experience with these types of issues.  By the way...Of the criteria I cited, the first bullet point is by far the most important to remember.

 

[VO5]

48 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said:

And yet it happens so rarely

If you’re looking at stats, sure. Often times these statistics are misleading, because the “truth” doesn’t come out in all of them. How many people want others to know they falsely imprisoned someone?