I'm worried about in-state recruiting.

[Stuhoo 81,357]

He should have magically absorbed the "Indiana basketball fairy dust" during his one year of high school ball at LaLu!

[HoosierHoops1 5,024]

Hanner wasn't in Indiana long (or playing bball long period), he was originally in NC and teammates with Jurkin.

Just his Senior year

[Old Friend 8,389]

I'm never going to read all that nonsense.  So I'll retry my post to you.  

 

If you really think Bob Knight's teams were more successful than Tom Crean's teams because of where the players were from....you're not paying attention.

 

Better?  Understand now?  But I bet you refuse to.  Same old "friend".

I disagree with you and you're clearly condescending; but I'll try the same tactic.  You really believe there was no method or rationale of Knight's focusing on Indiana and the surrounding states for 29 years?    Do you think he was afraid to fly or something?   Or maybe he knew he didn't have to leave the area?

 

And I'm the one not paying attention??  How many times did Knight talk about kids understanding Indiana Basketball and all of the traditions and expectations around it when they came to play there?   How many times did he talk about recruiting kids who understood how to play basketball?  (That's a quote)   He meant exactly what I said earlier.  The game vs. the sport.  The phrase "high basketball IQ" was invented for Knight.  It just didn't exist then; but that's what he recruited, and he didn't have to leave the area to build great teams with players who had it, and Crean doesn't either.  He could easily have gone to New York or DC's playgrounds and recruited better athletes, but he chose to stay here.  And you don't think there was a reason?  Good Lord....you're questioning MY understanding, Josh?   It's not about refusing anything....   I understand perfectly that coaching matters, and very few have been as critical of Crean as I have.   I also understand the list of kids from Indiana alone Crean has missed on.  Take a look and then tell me what you think we'd have been had we kept 1/3rd of them.  Why do we need Stanford Robinson, for example?

 

You really don't think part of the problem in the last 15 years has been kids not understanding expectations or what it means to play at Indiana?   You don't think Bracey Wright, some all star from Texas, or Marshall Strickland from Maryland, or the parade of kids Davis and Crean have brought in here don't have something to do with the downfall and lack of success in the program?  Really?   

 

You think it's coincidence that the two most successful teams we've had at Indiana in the last 15 years (2002 and 2013) were led by kids like Jeffries, Coverdale, Fife, Odle, Zeller, and Hulls?    Yes...I know there were good or even great players from other places..Oladipo and Moye in particular....but look at what followed the departure of those kids.   (Again, it's about focus on the area.  Not a complete blanket statement of all kids should be from here)  And yes, I also understand Yogi.  It has to be more than one kid and it has to be a focus on how you play and how much you help other kids get better.  Wright and Strickland replace Coverdale, Fife, Jeffries, etc...and Indiana finishes below .500, tanking for 4 years.   And we know what's happened the last 2 years.  I know we got Blackmon, but look at the kids we've missed on the last 3 years making us settle for kids who have no clue where they are and don't care....like Vonleh or Hoetzel.   Look, I like Johnson.  I just don't ever want to hear a kid say he doesn't understand where he is.   Got it?   Same tactic.  Understand?   Or will you refuse, as you asked me?

 

I think you're wrong if you believe we don't need a local focus, and I think your statement of "never going to read all of that nonsense" is lazy.   It's nonsense because you don't agree with it, right?   Is your comfort zone really that difficult to break?  If you're happy with the way things are going, God bless you.   Not sure why you and a couple of others keep bringing up old business.   Is there a reason?   Explain what you mean by "same old 'Friend."   I'd really like to know what that means.  You said it...explain it.  Do I have to agree with you or somehow categorize myself as the unwashed?  (Heck, you said "I bet you refuse to....same old 'friend," so you didn't even give me a chance before you made that comment.   Interesting, indeed)  Is my opinion somehow not welcome because you disagree with it or don't see things the same way?   Did I ruin your neighborhood because I have strong opinions that aren't popular sometimes?   Are you trying to make me leave or convince people of something?   Do you only want to read stuff you agree with?   What's the fun in that?   Seriously.  What did that mean?

[Old Friend 8,389]

I guess because I forgot to put "tic" next to MSB's birthplace that is grounds for criticism of all of the counters to extensive rambling.

Oooh...Knight got lazy. there's a solid defense of why he did things the right way and Crean doesn't!

Are you really criticizing Bryant, Rojo, and Sheehey! Holy crap.

Hanner played his high school ball in Indiana. Does he count as an Indiana kid?

Knight's recruiting methods and what happened in the mid-1990's are facts.   Revisionist history doesn't change things.  The defense is factual.  You don't have to like it.

 

Bryant hasn't played one minute of college basketball.   I am not and did not criticize him, but using him as a proof source is hardly reasonable.   Same reason I'm not using Morgan or Obunoby.

 

Johnson said he didn't understand the traditions of Indiana Basketball when he got here.  Another fact, and yes...I am criticizing that.   Sorry it bugs you.  All I meant about him was I don't ever want to hear that from another Indiana recruit.  Not when the coach said he took the job "because it's Indiana."    We're special or we're not.  And if kids don't understand the traditions, we're not, and that's not acceptable.

 

Sheehey was a great role player.  When it was time for him to shine as a #1 option, his team finished 8th in the Big Ten and missed the post season.  Another fact.  With a lottery pick big man and a McDonald's All American point guard.   Sheehey, without Zeller, Hulls, Watford, and Oladipo is a very ordinary basketball player.  You remember him fondly because of a few highlights and the teams he was on.   He had a chance to be a senior leader, and didn't fare very well.  Love the kid, but if you're looking at him as some beacon of proof, you need to look at the whole story rather than selective memory.   You can either accept that or you can't.  Again, I don't care; but don't pretend I'm wrong simply because you look at it through a different and more forgiving lens.    

[Old Friend 8,389]

I'll make one more point and then I'll leave the debate for others.   If you look at the last 6 Final Fours, they tell a story which makes my point.   Indiana is not Duke or Kentucky.   We're not able right now to recruit on a national level the way they are.   That's obvious, and I don't think it's disputed.   Those two schools have made 6 Final Four appearances in 6 years...25% (6 of 24 teams).  Understood.  That's not who Indiana is.

 

Look at the other teams.   In 2015, Michigan State and Wisconsin both recruit heavily in their own areas, and both are in the top 3 of the Big Ten every year.  Michigan State recruits 90% of its kids from Michigan, Illinois, Indiana, and Ohio; and has since Izzo's been there.  His top priorities - and he's said as much - are Michigan and Indiana.

 

In 2014, UConn had 9 kids from the northeast on their roster and most of their key players.   Florida had 11 from the southeast.  UK was there..and so was Wisconsin.  Same story.

 

2013 :  Louisville had 9 kids from the southeast, and a couple of international kids. Pitino's system is different than most, but he still stays close, and he recruits the area heavily.  Syracuse was very heavy (12 kids) northeast and always is.  Then you have Michigan and Wichita State.  Both very heavy midwestern recruiting bases, and Michigan in particular had only Hardaway and Stauskas from anywhere outside Michigan, Indiana, and Ohio.

 

2012 :  UK was there, Kansas was there with kids from all over, and at the time, they recruited the way Duke can now.  Understood.  Then, Ohio State and Louisville.  18 in-area kids between the two schools.

 

2011 :  UConn - most of the roster from the northeast.  UK again.  Butler - no need to tell you where those kids were from, right?  VCU - 12 kids from the southeast - even at a system school.  Kind of shows my point.  You don't need to leave an area to get the kids you need.

 

2010 :  Duke again.  West Virginia - 11 in-area kids.  Butler and Michigan State.  No explanation necessary.

 

In the last 6 seasons, apart from Duke and UK, there were 18 teams in the final four.   Of those 18, 16 of them focused on recruiting in the general geographic area of the school, and one which didn't - Louisville - recruits internationally to a specific system and way of playing.  Pitino's his own guy...I get it.  Indiana has more tradition than ALL of them.   I think it's important for kids to come here understanding of those traditions and the rivalries, expectations, etc.  I think it matters.  Some may disagree which is fine; but I guess I don't see where I'm so far off in believing Crean needs to focus locally and go outside the area only to get top talent.   Why do we need Stanford Robinson, Tim Priller, and Jeremiah April?   I still don't understand that.

[HoosierAloha 30,068]

Can Yogi take any of the blame...? He's been a leader of this program, from Indiana, and he's finished 8th and 7th without Zeller, Oladipo, Watford, and Hulls.

How about Davis and Patterson? They understood the tradition so much they got kicked off the team...

I'll take an Oladipo and Watford all day everyday. Sheehey played his role perfectly. He was never built to be the type of player to lead a horrible outside shooting team. Can I say that or no because he was from out of state? Give me a Vonleh too. At least he wanted to spend his year of college ball at IU.

IU isn't the program it used to be and the landscape of college basketball has changed. (It pains me type that) Maybe with a different coach IU can return to picking the best instate high school players and win championships.

[Stuhoo 81,357]

I'll make one more point and then I'll leave the debate for others.   If you look at the last 6 Final Fours, they tell a story which makes my point.   Indiana is not Duke or Kentucky.   We're not able right now to recruit on a national level the way they are.   That's obvious, and I don't think it's disputed.   Those two schools have made 6 Final Four appearances in 6 years...25% (6 of 24 teams).  Understood.  That's not who Indiana is.

 

Look at the other teams.   In 2015, Michigan State and Wisconsin both recruit heavily in their own areas, and both are in the top 3 of the Big Ten every year.  Michigan State recruits 90% of its kids from Michigan, Illinois, Indiana, and Ohio; and has since Izzo's been there.  His top priorities - and he's said as much - are Michigan and Indiana.

 

In 2014, UConn had 9 kids from the northeast on their roster and most of their key players.   Florida had 11 from the southeast.  UK was there..and so was Wisconsin.  Same story.

 

2013 :  Louisville had 9 kids from the southeast, and a couple of international kids. Pitino's system is different than most, but he still stays close, and he recruits the area heavily.  Syracuse was very heavy (12 kids) northeast and always is.  Then you have Michigan and Wichita State.  Both very heavy midwestern recruiting bases, and Michigan in particular had only Hardaway and Stauskas from anywhere outside Michigan, Indiana, and Ohio.

 

2012 :  UK was there, Kansas was there with kids from all over, and at the time, they recruited the way Duke can now.  Understood.  Then, Ohio State and Louisville.  18 in-area kids between the two schools.

 

2011 :  UConn - most of the roster from the northeast.  UK again.  Butler - no need to tell you where those kids were from, right?  VCU - 12 kids from the southeast - even at a system school.  Kind of shows my point.  You don't need to leave an area to get the kids you need.

 

2010 :  Duke again.  West Virginia - 11 in-area kids.  Butler and Michigan State.  No explanation necessary.

 

In the last 6 seasons, apart from Duke and UK, there were 18 teams in the final four.   Of those 18, 16 of them focused on recruiting in the general geographic area of the school, and one which didn't - Louisville - recruits internationally to a specific system and way of playing.  Pitino's his own guy...I get it.  Indiana has more tradition than ALL of them.   I think it's important for kids to come here understanding of those traditions and the rivalries, expectations, etc.  I think it matters.  Some may disagree which is fine; but I guess I don't see where I'm so far off in believing Crean needs to focus locally and go outside the area only to get top talent.   Why do we need Stanford Robinson, Tim Priller, and Jeremiah April?   I still don't understand that.

 

I think you are missing the point many here are making: the reason that IU has not had the success of Wisky and MSU is NOT largely because of recruiting, talent level, or whether the current players "get" what makes Indiana tick.

 

It is largely because Izzo and Ryan (and Stevens, and Knight) are superb instructors of basketball, and superb in-game basketball coaches. Can Tom Crean coach up a group of players to the highest level of success? I hope so.

[Josh 12,649]

What is lazy?  Not wanting to read a post that's 10,000 words too long about that poster's long established stereotype?  In America, brevity is king.

 

What is lazy?  Only seeing where a player is from to base opinions on that player and the future success of his teams?  If that's not lazy, it shows a lack of understanding for the game of basketball.  Whichever you like.

 

Have a great day gocolts   :P

[chitown hoosier 743]

I'll make one more point and then I'll leave the debate for others. If you look at the last 6 Final Fours, they tell a story which makes my point. Indiana is not Duke or Kentucky. We're not able right now to recruit on a national level the way they are. That's obvious, and I don't think it's disputed. Those two schools have made 6 Final Four appearances in 6 years...25% (6 of 24 teams). Understood. That's not who Indiana is.

Look at the other teams. In 2015, Michigan State and Wisconsin both recruit heavily in their own areas, and both are in the top 3 of the Big Ten every year. Michigan State recruits 90% of its kids from Michigan, Illinois, Indiana, and Ohio; and has since Izzo's been there. His top priorities - and he's said as much - are Michigan and Indiana.

In 2014, UConn had 9 kids from the northeast on their roster and most of their key players. Florida had 11 from the southeast. UK was there..and so was Wisconsin. Same story.

2013 : Louisville had 9 kids from the southeast, and a couple of international kids. Pitino's system is different than most, but he still stays close, and he recruits the area heavily. Syracuse was very heavy (12 kids) northeast and always is. Then you have Michigan and Wichita State. Both very heavy midwestern recruiting bases, and Michigan in particular had only Hardaway and Stauskas from anywhere outside Michigan, Indiana, and Ohio.

2012 : UK was there, Kansas was there with kids from all over, and at the time, they recruited the way Duke can now. Understood. Then, Ohio State and Louisville. 18 in-area kids between the two schools.

2011 : UConn - most of the roster from the northeast. UK again. Butler - no need to tell you where those kids were from, right? VCU - 12 kids from the southeast - even at a system school. Kind of shows my point. You don't need to leave an area to get the kids you need.

2010 : Duke again. West Virginia - 11 in-area kids. Butler and Michigan State. No explanation necessary.

In the last 6 seasons, apart from Duke and UK, there were 18 teams in the final four. Of those 18, 16 of them focused on recruiting in the general geographic area of the school, and one which didn't - Louisville - recruits internationally to a specific system and way of playing. Pitino's his own guy...I get it. Indiana has more tradition than ALL of them. I think it's important for kids to come here understanding of those traditions and the rivalries, expectations, etc. I think it matters. Some may disagree which is fine; but I guess I don't see where I'm so far off in believing Crean needs to focus locally and go outside the area only to get top talent. Why do we need Stanford Robinson, Tim Priller, and Jeremiah April? I still don't understand that.

You're contradicting yourself right now. These past champions either recruited all over or were heavily focused on the east coast. You can bring up wisconsins butlers Michigan states all you want but the simple fact is that they didn't win it all. No one remembers the runners up.

[GnarlyTimGarl 1,433]

You're contradicting yourself right now. These past champions either recruited all over or were heavily focused on the east coast. You can bring up wisconsins butlers Michigan states all you want but the simple fact is that they didn't win it all. No one remembers the runners up.

Perhaps, but the runners-up are remembered a whole lot more than Sweet 16's.

 

Regardless, I appreciate the lively debate between posters. A lot of solid info is being presented and puts me in the mood for basketball season a lot more than watching strength and conditioning videos.

[Alford Bailey 12,393]

Old Friend makes a fair point. Simply no reason to travel across the country to get the likes of Stan, Priller and April. That level of talent is all day within a short drive of Btown. Of course that is assuming CTC has any kind of relationship with in state coaches.

[Stuhoo 81,357]

Stan was a pretty high level recruit.

There was no reason to bring in April without knowing whether he had the requisite work ethic.

April was a flat out miss. It happens.

[Alford Bailey 12,393]

Sure, we can go east and get talent equal to our local Indiana kids. No argument there. But, if we could land a local kid, same talent level, at a cheaper recruiting cost AND that kid DOESN'T go to OSU, MSU or UM that is a win for IU. I could care less if a top kid goes to Duke or UK. We rarely play them. When we lose the same kid to a conference rival that hurts. More focus on Indiana helps us and forces conference rivals (mostly UM, MSU and OSU who have done very well in our state) to go somewhere else and at a higher cost. Just makes sense.

[Old Friend 8,389]

Stan was a pretty high level recruit.

There was no reason to bring in April without knowing whether he had the requisite work ethic.

April was a flat out miss. It happens.

He's also from Arizona.  Why are we recruiting kids from Arizona who aren't top level, 5 star talents?

[Old Friend 8,389]

What is lazy?  Not wanting to read a post that's 10,000 words too long about that poster's long established stereotype?  In America, brevity is king.

 

What is lazy?  Only seeing where a player is from to base opinions on that player and the future success of his teams?  If that's not lazy, it shows a lack of understanding for the game of basketball.  Whichever you like.

 

Have a great day gocolts   :P

If you don't understand why this is important, I can't help you.  You're blind and deaf if you don't think there's a reason many top coaches recruit Indiana and the surrounding states heavily.   Your little emoticon is cute.  You're still lazy.

[Stuhoo 81,357]

Sure, we can go east and get talent equal to our local Indiana kids. No argument there. But, if we could land a local kid, same talent level, at a cheaper recruiting cost AND that kid DOESN'T go to OSU, MSU or UM that is a win for IU. I could care less if a top kid goes to Duke or UK. We rarely play them. When we lose the same kid to a conference rival that hurts. More focus on Indiana helps us and forces conference rivals (mostly UM, MSU and OSU who have done very well in our state) to go somewhere else and at a higher cost. Just makes sense.

 

Absolutely, and I believe the staff tries to do exactly that; fill in the 3 star recruits with kids from the three/four state area. They don't always succeed, but they try. That's why we got Etherington, Hartman, Devin Davis, Dumes, Abel, Zeisloft, VJones, Pritch, Capo, many, many walk-ons (some of whom were offered D1 schollys elswhere) and others.

 

The staff thought that April had potential, more so than a kid like Zach McRoberts or Derek Smits, and had a wide open scholly very late in the game. Complete miss. They also thought that Hoetzel and Bawa had more potential. Nope - wrong and wrong, and you pissed off a local high school coach of kids like Bryson and Brenton Scott who didn't get a chance to be recruited by IU. MSB? Nice kid and a wide open scholly. Ooops - missed again.

 

They also thought that Emmitt Holt, Will Sheehey, and Victor Oladipo had more potential than similarly rated in-state kids. Winners! This year they feel the same way about OG (who, by the way, is a zero star recruit). Where's the GoColts outrage about bringing him in? Oh right, he hasn't failed yet.

 

 

I don't care for the strawman arguments; pre-supposing an untrue negative conclusion and then riffing off of it.

[Old Friend 8,389]

I think you are missing the point many here are making: the reason that IU has not had the success of Wisky and MSU is NOT largely because of recruiting, talent level, or whether the current players "get" what makes Indiana tick.

 

It is largely because Izzo and Ryan (and Stevens, and Knight) are superb instructors of basketball, and superb in-game basketball coaches. Can Tom Crean coach up a group of players to the highest level of success? I hope so.

I'm not missing the point.  I disagree with you and I'm not sure you or Josh understand my point, and I'm sure he's made no effort to do so.  He seems more interested in personal stuff.    Izzo, Ryan, Knight, and Stevens all recruited their own area and specifically the midwest.   Those kids understand the culture and the way the game is played to success in this area the same as the kids who go play at Syracuse, Georgetown, etc.  Teams who stay home and keep kids close - other than Duke or UK - generally have consistent success.    Whether they're midwest schools or not.   There is a way basketball is played in different regions of the country and different ways teams succeed.

 

For example, in New York and on the east coast, the game tends to be very ball-centric. (and other than Syracuse for a year or two, that part of the country has lacked in major team success for a long time)  Kids tend to do things off the dribble and there are plenty of individual super stars.   In the midwest, it's more of a team game focused on ball movement and fundamentals.  Out west, they run a lot.   Kids around here simply understand the fundamental game (making other players better, passing angles, post passing, they're generally better cutters and tend to understand spacing better).   Regardless of whether or not Robinson  was a high level recruit, he didn't fit and didn't succeed.   I think it matters, you don't.  That's fine.  Not sure why some feel it has to lead to a personal thing.   

[Stuhoo 81,357]

If you don't understand why this is important, I can't help you.  You're blind and deaf if you don't think there's a reason many top coaches recruit Indiana and the surrounding states heavily.   Your little emoticon is cute.  You're still lazy.

 

So tell me, GC; make a stand:

 

OG Anunoby is a straight A student, has great athleticism, apparently is a very willing defender, and is a low rated recruit; not just out of the top 100, but out of the top 200 on most services.

He will likely need at least one year to earn any substantial minutes in the rotation.

 

He is also from (shudder) Jefferson City, Missouri.

 

I am glad the staff identified him and convinced him to come on board. Are you on record stating that offering and signing him was a flat out bad decision?

[Old Friend 8,389]

Absolutely, and I believe the staff tries to do exactly that; fill in the 3 star recruits with kids from the three/four state area. They don't always succeed, but they try. That's why we got Etherington, Hartman, Devin Davis, Dumes, Abel, Zeisloft, VJones, Pritch, Capo, many, many walk-ons (some of whom were offered D1 schollys elswhere) and others.

 

The staff thought that April had potential, more so than a kid like Zach McRoberts or Derek Smits, and had a wide open scholly very late in the game. Complete miss. They also thought that Hoetzel and Bawa had more potential. Nope - wrong and wrong, and you pissed off a local high school coach of kids like Bryson and Brenton Scott who didn't get a chance to be recruited by IU. MSB? Nice kid and a wide open scholly. Ooops - missed again.

 

They also thought that Emmitt Holt, Will Sheehey, and Victor Oladipo had more potential than similarly rated in-state kids. Winners! This year they feel the same way about OG (who, by the way, is a zero star recruit). Where's the GoColts outrage about bringing him in? Oh right, he hasn't failed yet.

 

 

I don't care for the strawman arguments; pre-supposing an untrue negative conclusion and then riffing off of it.

You should re-name yourself "kiddie pool."    I'm not thrilled about OG either.  We'll see how he does. I didn't use him and I didn't use Morgan because it's not fair to do that yet, same as it's not fair to use Bryant yet.   Maybe all will be great.  Maybe they won't.   Time will tell; but no matter which way it goes, there's no denying the last 15 years since IU took recruiting focus away from the local area..   This season's success will prove very little, no matter how successful Indiana is.  I still disagree with taking focus away from the area.

 

I'm interested in long term success of the team rather than any one individual player.  You don't understand what I'm saying, or at least haven't applied it; and that's fine.   But you have zero backing to your argument because what Indiana has done is not winning consistently and hasn't for 15 years - and I'm sure you've heard what great recruiters Crean and Davis are/were.   Getting kids to say yes and building consistently good teams are very different things.   Crean can't do that, and I think part of the reason is a shotgun approach to recruiting.   Disagree if you want, Oladipo aside.   Like I said before, Sheehey was not good at all when he had the chance to lead the team.  He was fine as a role player.  Let's not over glorify what he accomplished, because he didn't do much when it was his team.   Holt's best finish is 7th in the Big Ten.   He is also a role player who will benefit from a great group of talent around him this season, but what's he done to prove your point?   He played 11 minutes a game last season, averages 3 points and 2 rebounds, and he's an example of why I'm wrong?   Yeah, he'll do better, but we couldn't find an Emmitt Holt somewhere around here?  3 points and 2 rebounds over 11 minutes is irreplaceable?    Really?

[bnkepner 1,509]

He's also from Arizona.  Why are we recruiting kids from Arizona who aren't top level, 5 star talents?

Jeremiah April was from Illinois. He had been playing at a prep school in Arizona when we recruited him.