Recruiting Momentum

[shortspacequickness 1,034]

Maybe, but aren't Crean and Knight cordial? I could be making stuff up, but I thought I read that they communicate every once in a while. People may put it on Crean, but he really has no say in whether RMK comes back. That is ALL on Knight. Kind of unfair if people in the fanbase hate on Crean for that.

Knight was overcome with emotion after the IU-Georgia game in Brooklyn. John Hulls was on his first staff at Indiana, and here he is watching Jordan in 2012.

 

Knight and Crean are cordial due to their relationship with LaRussa. In 2008, before the former player golf outing at Cook, there was talk that Knight and Crean discussed being coach at Indiana. Closed door meeting. Never have confirmed that, though. Kind of a wink-wink deal.

[shortspacequickness 1,034]

Crean was "good enough" for slick Leonard etc. in the sense that their top 2 choices said no. (Crean can fulfill the minimum requirements it takes to fill this role)

I know a decent amount about basketball.

I would say his failures to operate a monster of a CBB program has more to do with his inability to win big outside of assembly, his failure to consolidate a splintered fanbase, the fact that he makes IU look dumb every time he is outside the coaches box clapping, his failure to get Bob Knight to return, and the roster and coaching turnover, than it has to do with a iu having a loyal and proud fanbase.

Hahahahahahahaha

 

1. Most teams play better at home than on the road. Winning away from Assembly? We only won the first ever top 5 matchup at Breslin. Won at top 10 Ohio State. Won at top 10 Michigan. What do you want? Even with this team, we have done the work that was needed on the road already and we still have two more winnable road games left. Funny how all these guys coach circles around Crean yet we are the only team to win at Nebraska and Illinois.

 

2. The fan base will never be united. Ever. Maybe when Knight passes and the dream dies.

 

3. Way to play right into what I have referenced over and over. Clapping outside the coaches box is a strike against Crean? Damn, wouldn't want to be the next coach. He might tie his shoes too tight for this fan base.

 

4. Not his job to get RMK back. He has done all he can do.

 

5. Roster and coaching turnover... turns out, when you have great human beings who are talented... other programs want them, too. Pro leagues want them. I'm not sure if IU fans know what that is, since we have a whopping 4 players in the NBA. Wonder who brought that Zeller kid and that Oladipo guy to IU. Must have been IU's rich and storied tradition and all of its brilliant fans.

[Alford Bailey 12,386]

Dude, keep this up. I want this thread to beat Thomas Bryants.

[JSHoosier 20,241]

These are absolutely ludicrous comments. But they are certainly acceptable as we all have an opinion to share. Where I disagree with most here is that the vast majority of Indiana fans think they know basketball but many truly don't have a clue. There is a huge difference between knowing the game and knowing how to operate a monster of a college basketball program. Anybody can recognize poor play. That's easy to do. Coaching at Indiana isn't the cakewalk some here like to think it is. To think Stevens would walk in here and run the B1G from the jump is such fantasy... it's absolutely pathetic that our fans want to be Butler.

 

On second thought, you're absolutely right that he gets little respect. That's the problem. IU supporters can voice their opinions all they want... the problem is they are blinded opinions. The problem is they often are terribly inaccurate and idiotic thought processes because fans are blinded by recency bias and other variables.

 

It would be a lot easier to take the potshots at Crean more seriously if he wasn't so respected and admired in the basketball community. I'm talking about the people that actually matter--not fans. I, for one, feel lucky to have this man as our coach. It's funny how fans don't recognize that a lot of good coaches can't believe the heat he is getting. They don't see what respect people have for Crean. We hear all the stories about how he rubs people the wrong way. Newsflash, he's a D1 coach--it happens. Knight was no different.

 

If Crean is good enough for Slick Leonard, Ralph Willard, Eddie Fogler, etc.,  he's good enough for me. And he's good enough for Indiana.

Stevens would have resources here he didn't have at Butler, and his 6 years at Butler were more successful than Crean's entire career.  Hell, that 2 year run was better than Crean's entire career.  Sure he uses analytics in his coaching, but he's also a heck of a basketball coach and he's about as much of a sure thing as there is IMO.

 

Crean's good enough for you, we know.  Some people don't think a guy that only won the CUSA once and never did better than tied for 4th in the Big East is good enough.  If that's good enough for you that's your choice, I side with the ones that say it's not.

[Alford Bailey 12,386]

He sure does know a lot..... :rtfm:

[southernindianahoosier 422]

Hahahahahahahaha

1. Most teams play better at home than on the road. Winning away from Assembly? We only won the first ever top 5 matchup at Breslin. Won at top 10 Ohio State. Won at top 10 Michigan. What do you want? Even with this team, we have done the work that was needed on the road already and we still have two more winnable road games left. Funny how all these guys coach circles around Crean yet we are the only team to win at Nebraska and Illinois.

2. The fan base will never be united. Ever. Maybe when Knight passes and the dream dies.

3. Way to play right into what I have referenced over and over. Clapping outside the coaches box is a strike against Crean? Damn, wouldn't want to be the next coach. He might tie his shoes too tight for this fan base.

4. Not his job to get RMK back. He has done all he can do.

5. Roster and coaching turnover... turns out, when you have great human beings who are talented... other programs want them, too. Pro leagues want them. I'm not sure if IU fans know what that is, since we have a whopping 4 players in the NBA. Wonder who brought that Zeller kid and that Oladipo guy to IU. Must have been IU's rich and storied tradition and all of its brilliant fans.

#3- How do his manic-psychotic clapping mannerisms help out IU positively in any way? Please explain. Do they make his team play more poised and confident? (Joke)

I was at the IU-UofL game when Crean received a warning for going outside the coaches box and Louisville fans at the garden went wild, meanwhile I was embarrassed. When you have X-number of Louisville fans laughing at your coach for acting like a high school coach in one of the biggest bball venues in the world it helps change your perspective.

[shortspacequickness 1,034]

#3- How do his manic-psychotic clapping mannerisms help out IU positively in any way? Please explain. Do they make his team play more poised and confident? (Joke)

I was at the IU-UofL game when Crean received a warning for going outside the coaches box and Louisville fans at the garden went wild, meanwhile I was embarrassed. When you have X-number of Louisville fans laughing at your coach for acting like a high school coach in one of the biggest bball venues in the world it helps change your perspective.

When your criticism is based on a coach clapping, I just can't take your opinion seriously... sorry...

 

It's too bad those people laughed at our coach. I'm sure it hurt your feelings and caused you pain which again I am sorry for. I wish Stevens could make it all better but that just isn't going to happen at this point in time.

 

And JS, just as easily as you guys dismiss Crean's Final Four for having Dwyane Wade... Stevens happened upon a late bloomer named Hawyard, and had another pro on that team. Shouldn't that accomplishment have an asterisk just like Crean's? I'm not knocking Brad Stevens. I just have to laugh at the fantasy. He's the head coach of the Boston Celtics. He isn't going to run back to Bloomington... if he coaches in college again, it will be at Butler. So all of the debate is pointless.

 

And what Crean did at Marquette just doesn't matter... he's in the thick of his Indiana career now. He's just getting started. He kind of had to turn the program when he got here. Then he got kicked in the nuts by a couple guys really blossoming. Coaches have to manage those things but sometimes there are extenuating circumstances.... some choose to ignore those, others acknowledge them. One is ignorant and one isn't but it doesn't really matter because we can all look at it however we like.

[Alabaster Thunder 306]

#3- How do his manic-psychotic clapping mannerisms help out IU positively in any way? Please explain. Do they make his team play more poised and confident? (Joke)

I was at the IU-UofL game when Crean received a warning for going outside the coaches box and Louisville fans at the garden went wild, meanwhile I was embarrassed. When you have X-number of Louisville fans laughing at your coach for acting like a high school coach in one of the biggest bball venues in the world it helps change your perspective.

Speaking of coaches going outside their designated boxes...

[CottageGrove 563]

#3- How do his manic-psychotic clapping mannerisms help out IU positively in any way? Please explain. Do they make his team play more poised and confident? (Joke)

I was at the IU-UofL game when Crean received a warning for going outside the coaches box and Louisville fans at the garden went wild, meanwhile I was embarrassed. When you have X-number of Louisville fans laughing at your coach for acting like a high school coach in one of the biggest bball venues in the world it helps change your perspective.

 

I'd rather have opposing fans make fun of my coach's clapping than 15-seconds-in-a-restaurant jokes. But hey, different strokes...

 

And I'm really not trying to get into this fight at all. Just thought it could use a little levity. 

[CottageGrove 563]

Speaking of coaches going outside their designated boxes...

 

You beat me to it. And with a better joke! Damn you!

[mdn82 25,510]

Stevens would have resources here he didn't have at Butler, and his 6 years at Butler were more successful than Crean's entire career.  Hell, that 2 year run was better than Crean's entire career.  Sure he uses analytics in his coaching, but he's also a heck of a basketball coach and he's about as much of a sure thing as there is IMO.

 

Crean's good enough for you, we know.  Some people don't think a guy that only won the CUSA once and never did better than tied for 4th in the Big East is good enough.  If that's good enough for you that's your choice, I side with the ones that say it's not.

 

Stevens is hands down better in almost every aspect of coaching compared to Crean (IMO).  I am not convinced he is a better recruiter until he does it.  Its kind of similar to the argument of Crean is not better than "Insert name" until he shows it.  Then that argument has some variation of a putdown for clapping or childish stuff which is just idiotic.  I am convinced his resume and stature would no doubt help him.  He would be more than fine.  But, would he be able to grind on the recruiting trail like a Crean, Calipari, or Miller?  He doesn't like recruiting.  The kids he is recruiting for would be up against OSU, UL, UK, MSU, UM in the area alone.  Again, I think he would get his, but it is not a slam dunk like his coaching.  

[ALASKA HOOSIER 11,276]

he said, "BOX"!

[southernindianahoosier 422]

When your criticism is based on a coach clapping, I just can't take your opinion seriously... sorry...

It's too bad those people laughed at our coach. I'm sure it hurt your feelings and caused you pain which again I am sorry for. I wish Stevens could make it all better but that just isn't going to happen at this point in time.

And JS, just as easily as you guys dismiss Crean's Final Four for having Dwyane Wade... Stevens happened upon a late bloomer named Hawyard, and had another pro on that team. Shouldn't that accomplishment have an asterisk just like Crean's? I'm not knocking Brad Stevens. I just have to laugh at the fantasy. He's the head coach of the Boston Celtics. He isn't going to run back to Bloomington... if he coaches in college again, it will be at Butler. So all of the debate is pointless.

And what Crean did at Marquette just doesn't matter... he's in the thick of his Indiana career now. He's just getting started. He kind of had to turn the program when he got here. Then he got kicked in the nuts by a couple guys really blossoming. Coaches have to manage those things but sometimes there are extenuating circumstances.... some choose to ignore those, others acknowledge them. One is ignorant and one isn't but it doesn't really matter because we can all look at it however we like.

How can you not acknowledge this his actions on the sideline should not be considered in any coach evaluation? You should watch other CBB coaches as ask yourself, do they command respect? Are they confident? Poised? Or do they act nervous? Sporadic? Inconsistent? Uninterested?

These things matter. Especially when you take your team into battle and you are considered the leader.

He got kicked in the nuts from a couple guys really blossoming? You have got to be kidding me. He gets paid 3+MILLION to manage and know his roster well enough to stay consistent.

[mdn82 25,510]

I'd rather have opposing fans make fun of my coach's clapping than 15-seconds-in-a-restaurant jokes. But hey, different strokes...

 

And I'm really not trying to get into this fight at all. Just thought it could use a little levity. 

Honestly I have never heard of a coach that wasn't ridiculed for some aspect of appearance or mannerisms.  Its funny to me that people chuckle like 4th grade females every time Crean's clapping is brought up like its the ultimate putdown.

 

Coach K - Rat face

Keady - Combover

Calipari - Every expletive in the book

Pitino - 15 seconds of fame

Boeheim - How many times has he been on tv picking his nose?

 

Seriously in some aspects these are great mixed in with good coaches.  Does anyone give a rats ass Coach K looks like Splinter during a game?  Does his ability to hone his rat like appearance somehow minimize his coaching ability?  Yet at the same time Crean clapping is the ultimate putdown.  The dude is an average in game coach at best.  He is above average in recruiting.  He will be here for at least a few more years and potentially longer the way his 2017 class is lining up.  Yet half of the conversations about his coaching bring up clapping.  That is the most idiotic part of being a part of this community.  On a daily basis I wish I could reach through a computer when people bring that stupid shit up like it means something.  If people truly wanted to talk about his coaching, people would oblige.  When they put him down like it strengthens their argument it just makes them look like a larger idiot.  

[Big Bad Wolf 101]

When your criticism is based on a coach clapping, I just can't take your opinion seriously... sorry...

It's too bad those people laughed at our coach. I'm sure it hurt your feelings and caused you pain which again I am sorry for. I wish Stevens could make it all better but that just isn't going to happen at this point in time.

And JS, just as easily as you guys dismiss Crean's Final Four for having Dwyane Wade... Stevens happened upon a late bloomer named Hawyard, and had another pro on that team. Shouldn't that accomplishment have an asterisk just like Crean's? I'm not knocking Brad Stevens. I just have to laugh at the fantasy. He's the head coach of the Boston Celtics. He isn't going to run back to Bloomington... if he coaches in college again, it will be at Butler. So all of the debate is pointless.

And what Crean did at Marquette just doesn't matter... he's in the thick of his Indiana career now. He's just getting started. He kind of had to turn the program when he got here. Then he got kicked in the nuts by a couple guys really blossoming. Coaches have to manage those things but sometimes there are extenuating circumstances.... some choose to ignore those, others acknowledge them. One is ignorant and one isn't but it doesn't really matter because we can all look at it however we like.

Stop the excuses. The man has been here 7 years. How long does it take to build a strong program? He should be rolling now. He's not the only coach to have kids go pro or transfer. But he sure seems to be the only one who can't recover from it.

You do realize that this thread is about recruiting. It's not like he has top classes coming in 2015, 16 or 17. We can't get the top kids in our own state anymore let alone nationally. It's not going to get better.

[JSHoosier 20,241]

When your criticism is based on a coach clapping, I just can't take your opinion seriously... sorry...

 

It's too bad those people laughed at our coach. I'm sure it hurt your feelings and caused you pain which again I am sorry for. I wish Stevens could make it all better but that just isn't going to happen at this point in time.

 

And JS, just as easily as you guys dismiss Crean's Final Four for having Dwyane Wade... Stevens happened upon a late bloomer named Hawyard, and had another pro on that team. Shouldn't that accomplishment have an asterisk just like Crean's? I'm not knocking Brad Stevens. I just have to laugh at the fantasy. He's the head coach of the Boston Celtics. He isn't going to run back to Bloomington... if he coaches in college again, it will be at Butler. So all of the debate is pointless.

 

And what Crean did at Marquette just doesn't matter... he's in the thick of his Indiana career now. He's just getting started. He kind of had to turn the program when he got here. Then he got kicked in the nuts by a couple guys really blossoming. Coaches have to manage those things but sometimes there are extenuating circumstances.... some choose to ignore those, others acknowledge them. One is ignorant and one isn't but it doesn't really matter because we can all look at it however we like.

Yes, Stevens had Hayward.  Then without Hayward he turned around and did it again.  Yes, he had another NBA player on that team.  Crean had Wade and two other NBA players.  About all I've said about Crean's Final Four is that it was a fluke, and at this point his coaching record says it is.  Mike Davis had a fluke Final Four run too.

 

Whether you like it or not, and in your case the answer is 'or not', it does matter.  Why?  Because at some point a coach's resume is reflective of his ability.  And so far his resume doesn't suggest that he's much of a coach.  For that to not be true, you have to make me believe that 15 years isn't enough to judge a coach's ability on.  If it's not, what is?  Keeping in mind that of the coach's he's paid to be among he's accomplished less in the same time frame than every single one and in some cases he's not even close.  People want to say Calipari isn't much of a coach, but his resume was better before he got to UK than the entirety of Crean's.  That's why I talk about his track record, because at some point it's reflective of ability and his says he's not the guy to take us where we should expect to be.

[JSHoosier 20,241]

Stevens is hands down better in almost every aspect of coaching compared to Crean (IMO).  I am not convinced he is a better recruiter until he does it.  Its kind of similar to the argument of Crean is not better than "Insert name" until he shows it.  Then that argument has some variation of a putdown for clapping or childish stuff which is just idiotic.  I am convinced his resume and stature would no doubt help him.  He would be more than fine.  But, would he be able to grind on the recruiting trail like a Crean, Calipari, or Miller?  He doesn't like recruiting.  The kids he is recruiting for would be up against OSU, UL, UK, MSU, UM in the area alone.  Again, I think he would get his, but it is not a slam dunk like his coaching.  

We don't know how he could recruit until he got here.  The same was true for Crean.

[southernindianahoosier 422]

Stop the excuses. The man has been here 7 years. How long does it take to build a strong program? He should be rolling now. He's not the only coach to have kids go pro or transfer. But he sure seems to be the only one who can't recover from it.

You do realize that this thread is about recruiting. It's not like he has top classes coming in 2015, 16 or 17. We can't get the top kids in our own state anymore let alone nationally. It's not going to get better.

Agreed.

I think tom would be better at a school where he isn't under pressure to get top recruits every year. Then he would play to his proven strengths which he can constantly find and develop players from the bottom 50-150. He then can churn out the DWade and Dipos Every 3 years.

Crean doesn't have to lose for IU to win. His strengths don't seem to fit here at IU.

[mdn82 25,510]

We don't know how he could recruit until he got here.  The same was true for Crean.

I think Crean had shown his knack for finding under the radar players with upside.  He also showed same as here he took huge leaps of faith on upside bigs only to be disappointed.  Crean was a very successful recruiter under Izzo, so I wasn't really worried about his sales pitch.  I can honestly say there is very little from his tenure that has surprised me outside of his player's discipline issues.  

[shortspacequickness 1,034]

Yes, Stevens had Hayward. Then without Hayward he turned around and did it again. Yes, he had another NBA player on that team. Crean had Wade and two other NBA players. About all I've said about Crean's Final Four is that it was a fluke, and at this point his coaching record says it is. Mike Davis had a fluke Final Four run too.

Whether you like it or not, and in your case the answer is 'or not', it does matter. Why? Because at some point a coach's resume is reflective of his ability. And so far his resume doesn't suggest that he's much of a coach. For that to not be true, you have to make me believe that 15 years isn't enough to judge a coach's ability on. If it's not, what is? Keeping in mind that of the coach's he's paid to be among he's accomplished less in the same time frame than every single one and in some cases he's not even close. People want to say Calipari isn't much of a coach, but his resume was better before he got to UK than the entirety of Crean's. That's why I talk about his track record, because at some point it's reflective of ability and his says he's not the guy to take us where we should expect to be.

It's deeper than records. Indiana is the vehicle like you said re: Stevens. Crean has actually been in the Big Ten and knows the league like a veteran should. He has a style of play that is appealing, fun to play in, and successful. He has a demonstrated ability to recruit the kind of basketball players IU hasn't seen since the early 90's. That's a lifetime now. He develops players and is known in basketball circles for having legendary practices. They're precision. His in game tactical management is not elite. But it doesn't have to be. Those decisions are often arbitrary, and players on the floor have a much higher importance in whether those decisions actually bare out. I, personally, choose to see where Indiana can go with Crean and not where Crean has been with Marquette. I'm truly not the blind loyalist. I just have first hand knowledge of this coach's leadership and I can't ignore that. IU would be foolish to let him go at this juncture. Down the line it is a much different conversation if Indiana fails to consistently be a top 10-15 team. But now? We'd look like idiots considering we just won a Big Ten title.

He has a challenging situation in front of him and the process is being eased by his ability to develop a certain attitude within this team, a certain style of play. But it is a challenge nonetheless, and we'll see if he can outrun the mob. I am betting he can and will due to this freshmen class of Holt, Blackmon, Johnson.