IU Vs Gtown (Post Game Thread)

[HoosierAloha 30,092]

This can't inbound crap is getting old as hell.

Just a few years ago we were top 10 in PPP ATO. I'm guessing it was either Cody or coach Chaeney drawing up the plays. I mean if it's in favor of coach Crean it's not true. The players have changed but the coach remains the same.

[Bowhunter 2,892]

I'm not saying he should go, I'm saying he probably will. I DIDN'T think Noah OR Cody was ready either, but you can't take a chance on losing money to an injury.

[HoosierHoops1 5,024]

We lost 4 really strong bigs in the last 2 years (3 went pro and 1 transferred)  that could have been on this team. If any of the 4 had stayed our team improves dramatically. I'm not sure many coaches would have had contingencies for none of the 4 playing this season.

[8bucks 6,935]

when we win, the same five people have a conversation on here for about a week, and when we lose a different five people have a conversation on here...

a great deal of program momentum is self fulfilling prophesy...the fan base can help create momentum in one direction or another.

I do not think that Roy Williams is a good coach but he has had a ton of success. This can largely be attributed to the fact that he generally has had support at Kansas and at UNC. Now he may be losing that support at UNC, it will be interesting to see how the flaws he has always had will now be focused on going forward.

I think the same can be said about Crean, but for whatever reason our fan base has always assumed we have a birthright on basketball knowledge and I firmly believe that we have undercut our own coaches twice now. Neither Davis or Crean is an amazing coach, but both have some real strengths that have gotten swallowed up by fan criticism.

If we are going to criticize coaching can we do better than blanket statements and ad hominem attacks?

Last year he played too many people, this year it is too few. Last year people felt like players didn't have to earn their time on the floor. This year we assume that a freshmen guy on the end of the bench was the obvious answer to stopping a senior Five Star center who wasn't actually the reason that Georgetown won.

GT won because we let DSR get hot and because we missed quick shots during their first run in the second half and because we turned it over down the stretch. Josh Smith was a factor but GT did not need to be close enough for it to have mattered. Zeisloft, Hartman, Perea, Robinson, and Holt gave us nothing...if they even give us half their average contribution we win the game by 10 or 12 easily.

Roy Williams may be an average coach but instead of blaming fans why not look at some of the reasons he has had support.

Roy at Kansas coached 15 years. His teams won the Big 12 9 times out of his last 13 years. Roy had 4 teams make the FF two lost in the championship game. Add to that consistent appearances in the NCAA every year he could. He also took over a team under probation though not as bad off as IU.

Tom coached at Marquette for 9 years and won 1 conference championship (conf USA). He had one team make a FF.

Shucks Doesn't it seem logical to wonder why it is easier to support one guy over the other?

[Alford Bailey 12,804]

I think April is actually skilled. Its amazing that Jeff Howard got so much run but this guy cant.

Jeff Howard had GREAT hair! You cant not play a guy with that hair.

[Alford Bailey 12,804]

So... Indiana wins the 1st half by 10 and Georgetown wins the 2nd half by 10 and JT3 somehow proves he's the better coach.

 

Only once did I gripe specifically at a coaching move. The rest was at execution.

Execution by the other team......who made adjustments........while we stood around wondering how to attack a zone AGAIN in the Crean era.

[mchenry34 107]

Roy Williams may be an average coach but instead of blaming fans why not look at some of the reasons he has had support.

Roy at Kansas coached 15 years. His teams won the Big 12 9 times out of his last 13 years. Roy had 4 teams make the FF two lost in the championship game. Add to that consistent appearances in the NCAA every year he could. He also took over a team under probation though not as bad off as IU.

Tom coached at Marquette for 9 years and won 1 conference championship (conf USA). He had one team make a FF.

Shucks Doesn't it seem logical to wonder why it is easier to support one guy over the other?

shucks, My point is, Crean is very nearly on par with Williams when it comes to coaching ability...as a coach, when I watch the teams play the Williams does not have schemes or set plays that take advantage of any particular strength of his team, he even seems to have the same solution that Crean does when things are not going well, which is to speed up.  The results being quite different is actually a part of the point that I am making...Williams did not earn the support he got, it was handed to him. Truth is he has NCAA violations to his name and is apparently willing to look the other way academically in a way that I cannot imagine Crean doing. Program Momentum is a very real part of an equation for success. It is possible to have a talented coach who is a decent recruiter etc...who has lost momentum for some reason or another and loses his job because of it.

 

If fans can be part of the solution as I believe they were in rebuilding, they can be part of the problem of a stalled out program as well...which is what I believe we are looking at right now. A good (not great coach) who has made a few mistakes  (I think the the 2012 and 2013 classes show that he compromised on character a bit because he believed that he had the culture in place to take care of those issues, also reaching on scholarships a couple times that handcuffed him in the spring and with some very important recruits in state, and taking a couple of kids too early which boxed him in, possibly a couple of moments where he needed to ditch the coach speak and take responsibility himself)...that led to his program stalling out with the fans who have made it hard to recover.

[JSHoosier 21,487]

shucks, My point is, Crean is very nearly on par with Williams when it comes to coaching ability...as a coach, when I watch the teams play the Williams does not have schemes or set plays that take advantage of any particular strength of his team, he even seems to have the same solution that Crean does when things are not going well, which is to speed up.  The results being quite different is actually a part of the point that I am making...Williams did not earn the support he got, it was handed to him. Truth is he has NCAA violations to his name and is apparently willing to look the other way academically in a way that I cannot imagine Crean doing. Program Momentum is a very real part of an equation for success. It is possible to have a talented coach who is a decent recruiter etc...who has lost momentum for some reason or another and loses his job because of it.

 

If fans can be part of the solution as I believe they were in rebuilding, they can be part of the problem of a stalled out program as well...which is what I believe we are looking at right now. A good (not great coach) who has made a few mistakes  (I think the the 2012 and 2013 classes show that he compromised on character a bit because he believed that he had the culture in place to take care of those issues, also reaching on scholarships a couple times that handcuffed him in the spring and with some very important recruits in state, and taking a couple of kids too early which boxed him in, possibly a couple of moments where he needed to ditch the coach speak and take responsibility himself)...that led to his program stalling out with the fans who have made it hard to recover.

In your opinion he is, his resume and coaching history however says no he is not and it's not even close.

[HoosierTrav 8,085]

Jeff Howard had GREAT hair! You cant not play a guy with that hair.

ANY man brave enough to feather his salad deserves significant harwood time. Something has to be beautiful on a court full of ugly.

[8bucks 6,935]

shucks, My point is, Crean is very nearly on par with Williams when it comes to coaching ability...as a coach, when I watch the teams play the Williams does not have schemes or set plays that take advantage of any particular strength of his team, he even seems to have the same solution that Crean does when things are not going well, which is to speed up. The results being quite different is actually a part of the point that I am making...Williams did not earn the support he got, it was handed to him. Truth is he has NCAA violations to his name and is apparently willing to look the other way academically in a way that I cannot imagine Crean doing. Program Momentum is a very real part of an equation for success. It is possible to have a talented coach who is a decent recruiter etc...who has lost momentum for some reason or another and loses his job because of it.

If fans can be part of the solution as I believe they were in rebuilding, they can be part of the problem of a stalled out program as well...which is what I believe we are looking at right now. A good (not great coach) who has made a few mistakes (I think the the 2012 and 2013 classes show that he compromised on character a bit because he believed that he had the culture in place to take care of those issues, also reaching on scholarships a couple times that handcuffed him in the spring and with some very important recruits in state, and taking a couple of kids too early which boxed him in, possibly a couple of moments where he needed to ditch the coach speak and take responsibility himself)...that led to his program stalling out with the fans who have made it hard to recover.

Glad you caught the shucks part. I think we are seeing things completely different on this.

I do not think Roy has been handed anything Crean had not been handed. As you said the support was there through the rebuild and the waned recently. The question is why? Interestingly we both point to results and as you astutely pointed out, Crean reached on a couple of recruiting classes that have been a big cause of why we have "stalled out" as you called it.

On this we agree, but here we start to differ. If you look back at ol Roys time at Kansas he never stalled out. This he never lost the support. Creans program has stalled and he is going to catch heat for that. But let's assume we do as you say and get behind him despite that. When I look forward another likely stall is coming in the fall of 2016 after we lose Yogi, JBj, Nick, HP and possibly Troy.

That is something that Crean has had throughout his career. A few peaks followed by stalled out rebuilds. Guys like Roy keep producing year after year after year. So now someone will come along and point out the scandal at UNC and try to discredit my post. I used Roy as an example because you initially did not because he is some shining star of how to build a program.

[bleedhoosier 3,627]

^ I concur with the above.. that is exactly my fear with Crean. If we find a big or Perea keeps up the pace he is on and we have Davis and Holt come back in strong we will have a legit team next year in my opinion. Then, we lose jbj, yogi, williams, perea.. feels like the reverse problem. We may end up with a decent front court rotation but a lack of overall guard play.

[FKfootball 1,046]

How well did Creans Marquette teams defend? I would be interested to know that.

[mchenry34 107]

Glad you caught the shucks part. I think we are seeing things completely different on this.

I do not think Roy has been handed anything Crean had not been handed. As you said the support was there through the rebuild and the waned recently. The question is why? Interestingly we both point to results and as you astutely pointed out, Crean reached on a couple of recruiting classes that have been a big cause of why we have "stalled out" as you called it.

On this we agree, but here we start to differ. If you look back at ol Roys time at Kansas he never stalled out. This he never lost the support. Creans program has stalled and he is going to catch heat for that. But let's assume we do as you say and get behind him despite that. When I look forward another likely stall is coming in the fall of 2016 after we lose Yogi, JBj, Nick, HP and possibly Troy.

That is something that Crean has had throughout his career. A few peaks followed by stalled out rebuilds. Guys like Roy keep producing year after year after year. So now someone will come along and point out the scandal at UNC and try to discredit my post. I used Roy as an example because you initially did not because he is some shining star of how to build a program.

Fair enough...I guess I just don't have that much hope that hiring someone new will unite the fan base and help us to avoid this problem. Perhaps I am being too pessimistic, but I have only seen IU hire Davis, Sampson, and Crean in basketball, and only seen them hire Cameron, Dinardo, Hoepner, Lynch, and Wilson in football. The only hires among those that turned out with any success were then also fired or in the case of Crean on the hot seat. 

 

Perhaps Stevens could do it...but I don't think he would come.

 

The only other possibility I see of uniting the fan base is a group of alumni...Fife as head coach, Lewis, Cheaney, and maybe Bailey as main assistants, and a guy like Guyton or Mike Roberts as the assistant that stays on campus. That group will have been around a lot of good coaching in there time in basketball.

 

OR I think if Crean did somehow get full support again he would have better success.

[Hutch89 2,946]

It's much easier to succeed with SUPPORT.   In all paths of life. 
 

[8bucks 6,935]

Fair enough...I guess I just don't have that much hope that hiring someone new will unite the fan base and help us to avoid this problem. Perhaps I am being too pessimistic, but I have only seen IU hire Davis, Sampson, and Crean in basketball, and only seen them hire Cameron, Dinardo, Hoepner, Lynch, and Wilson in football. The only hires among those that turned out with any success were then also fired or in the case of Crean on the hot seat.

Perhaps Stevens could do it...but I don't think he would come.

The only other possibility I see of uniting the fan base is a group of alumni...Fife as head coach, Lewis, Cheaney, and maybe Bailey as main assistants, and a guy like Guyton or Mike Roberts as the assistant that stays on campus. That group will have been around a lot of good coaching in there time in basketball.

OR I think if Crean did somehow get full support again he would have better success.

Our fan base splintered when RMK was fired. There are some from that camp that want the old ways but the game and environment has changed so much even RMK could not rekindle those times if he were the coach now. I am one who longs for those days but recognize the game has moved and a lot of what I loved about those times is gone.

I think Crean has captured most of what we in Indiana value off the court despite the run of trouble over the last year. His kids graduate, many early, if they stay. It's the peaks and valleys in wins that is hurting him the most. His peaks are not high enough and not long enough and his valleys are too low.

I really think had the 12 class not been such a huge miss he could have sustained the peak longer but man that class really killed momentum.

Back during the RMK days, the fans base actually began to splinter before his firing. As his winning dropped off supporters grew more tired of him. The miss on the Charlie miller class and the transfer of Luke Recker really weakened a lot of his remaining support. Though at the time of his firing many like me who were beginning to doubt thought that the firing was garbage and then that further entrenched more support for him and a lot against IU.

There is a challenge here at IU unlike many other places but the opportunity here is unlike many either. Win here and you may not get the old RMK support back but there is enough other support to make it worthwhile.

Gotta win more consistently though. This is not a naive assumption that we have to be in the FF every year. But there are plenty of ways to increase wins from Creans history such that we have an occasional run at a championship (every 3-4 years) and generally always competing for the BT championship and lastly always in the NCAA. There are enough other teams that are closer to these results for us to settle for less.

[Hodge 1]

If Crean leaves April on the bench, he'll never get "ready". At least it was 5 more fouls to use on the big guy.

[Hodge 1]

True max was just running up an down the court.so why not put April out there

[WayneFleekHoosier 49,749]

speaking of Max.  I stand by my comments of loving his long term potential as a scorer!  BUT, why did he pass up so many open 3's and then pump fake a guy that was coming over late, then drive right into traffic.  3 or 4 occasions he did this.  Just shoot the stinking ball.

[mchenry34 107]

speaking of Max.  I stand by my comments of loving his long term potential as a scorer!  BUT, why did he pass up so many open 3's and then pump fake a guy that was coming over late, then drive right into traffic.  3 or 4 occasions he did this.  Just shoot the stinking ball.

my guess is that he has been told to calm the gunslinging when coming in straight off the bench, especially in big games. I have been happy with his rebounding and I think that he is pretty savvy getting in the lane. Can be a nice piece moving forward.

[HoosierHoops1 5,024]

Execution by the other team......who made adjustments........while we stood around wondering how to attack a zone AGAIN in the Crean era.

What did you want us to adjust at the half?