Thinking Back

[moyemayhem 1,704]

The Miami Heat did well without a post player.

 

There was that one guy...

[cchoneycut 53]

Thinking back to these past few years with Noah & Cody, us avid fans always complained about minimal usage of our stud big men. Due to this year not having an established big man, maybe this was Crean's idea lineup? A small, quick, shooting lineup with a rebounder underneath. Although, obviously we want Hanner to be very efficient, if he can just grab rebounds we will be more than OK.

At Marquette, when Crean went to the Final Four I read in certain topics (too young to know personally) that he had a small lineup. I am very optimistic about this season.

Feel free to correct me & leave your personal thoughts.

But at the same time we have never had a great rebounding guard or wing for that matter. Vic was an exception at times but that's it. It's all about how Crean plays and he has never had rebounding guards. Michigan depends on their guards to get rebounds, we don't really do that. Shoot we got out rebounded by UIndy last night.

[shortspacequickness 1,034]

I guess my point is that Indiana has to do a better job rebounding, without question, but that it can/should be done... if it isn't there's a problem. Got to get into the lower bodies of the opposition. They have to be physically hit on every play down the floor.

 

It takes freshmen some time to understand that this is an every play every game league. Crean's teams typically are competitive no matter what in rebounding. He does an excellent job of teaching rebounding. I know that. But... it doesn't matter what is taught, the players have to have the mentality to go get the ball. I think Hanner has that, Devin has it, Emmitt seems to have a knack... Troy HAS to rebound for IU, but I don't think he lives for it like Devin does. One person who has to step up and be the big time guy that will fight is James. He can't play passively on that end.

 

However, losing Devin really hurts........ he could have been a 7-8 per night guy.

 

Personally, I don't see the worth in getting worried about being outrebounded by Indianapolis. It's an obvious complaint. Basketball isn't a perfect game. Sometimes the other team shoots 36 threes.

 

I have been impressed with Hanner's aggressiveness on the defensive glass.

[WayneFleekHoosier 50,716]

The Miami Heat did well without a post player. A rim defender is always nice to have, but they can be a liability if team has shooters and can run the court effectively.

What about this guy lol!

[attachment=1346:ImageUploadedByBtownBanners1415746059.310997.jpg]

[ALASKA HOOSIER 11,309]

why does it always come down to size?

[rebelhoosier848891 9,588]

Great discussion gentleman----last night proved we need better rebounding than we had last night.

 

But ---Troy and Stan will be back soon and both can be good rebounders and Holt has to rise to the occasion which I believe he will.  Remember Holt has the freakish wingspan that made him a top rebounder and shot blocker in high school and AAU.  We don't have time to bring him along slowly---I think he is Hanner's backup as soon as his suspension is over!

 

I predict Holt will be tough by end of the year and hopefully helps us make a run in the Big Tourney and NCAA's--yes I still think we get there---our backcourt is going to be dynamite and carry us to a lot of W's.

[Bryan Medema 1,488]

I'll do my best to find some statistics to back myself up, but historically speaking Big Men tend to have a greater influence on regular season play versus tournament settings. The typically slower pace of regular season games (brought on by the arduous grind of a marathon seasons versus the "win-or-go-home" up-tempo mentality of tournament games) tends to favor big men who can use the reduced tempo, paired with more lax calls (officials in the NCAA tournament tend to call games with a  positive bias towards guards) to their advantage. Applied to our team this year, we're in trouble. The best way for the current team to overcome their size based handicap is to be incredibly well conditioned (something they've surely worked towards with recent...problems) and rely on guard depth as it allows for us to continue to maintain a high-tempo style. If we can squeak into the tournament, our overt strength at guard can give us a greater advantage than some of the higher-rated B1G teams. 

 

All told I think that Crean is more comfortable with a small lineup that emphasizes slashing and spot shooting rather than post play. If we can maintain a high-tempo attack (through depth, conditioning and the 3-ball) we can steal some games and hopefully find the tourney. From there, the application of a seasons worth of practice and the bias towards guard play might help us win a few games. 

[HoosierHoops1 5,024]

why does it always come down to size?

It does to people who don't know about proper positioning...

[shortspacequickness 1,034]

I'll do my best to find some statistics to back myself up, but historically speaking Big Men tend to have a greater influence on regular season play versus tournament settings. The typically slower pace of regular season games (brought on by the arduous grind of a marathon seasons versus the "win-or-go-home" up-tempo mentality of tournament games) tends to favor big men who can use the reduced tempo, paired with more lax calls (officials in the NCAA tournament tend to call games with a  positive bias towards guards) to their advantage. Applied to our team this year, we're in trouble. The best way for the current team to overcome their size based handicap is to be incredibly well conditioned (something they've surely worked towards with recent...problems) and rely on guard depth as it allows for us to continue to maintain a high-tempo style. If we can squeak into the tournament, our overt strength at guard can give us a greater advantage than some of the higher-rated B1G teams. 

 

All told I think that Crean is more comfortable with a small lineup that emphasizes slashing and spot shooting rather than post play. If we can maintain a high-tempo attack (through depth, conditioning and the 3-ball) we can steal some games and hopefully find the tourney. From there, the application of a seasons worth of practice and the bias towards guard play might help us win a few games. 

Great points...

[drewheck 749]

We can shoot people out of the paint and make it easier on offense for hanner but on defense we will get murdered down low we will have to double team a lot but with our guys being so quick we can get steals out of the post

[BGleas 8,955]

This is one of the biggest reasons I'm not sold on Crean as the long term guy at IU. I don't want a coach who's system can't figure out how to best utilize a talent like Noah Vonleh. I don't want a coach who can't figure how to incorporate or alter his system to fit his roster. What happens when the next stud Indiana back to the basket player comes up? Are we going to argue Crean shouldn't take him?

I want a coach who can change and alter his system based on the talent he has.

Coach K has had stud bigs, stud wings, stud point guards and he's won with all of them. He's had teams run/gun and he's had teams play slow/defensive and he's won both ways.

Look at Cal, at Memphis he was the point guard coach with DeJuan Wagner, Rose and Tyreke Evans. While he's still had great guards at UK, he's also had Cousins, Davis, Noel and Randle and now Towns, Lyles, Lee and the other big kid from the '13 class. He's adapted to all of them.

While I agree Crean is probably best with a big like Hanner, I'm not sure I want a coach that's limited like that.

Thinking back to these past few years with Noah & Cody, us avid fans always complained about minimal usage of our stud big men. Due to this year not having an established big man, maybe this was Crean's idea lineup? A small, quick, shooting lineup with a rebounder underneath. Although, obviously we want Hanner to be very efficient, if he can just grab rebounds we will be more than OK.

At Marquette, when Crean went to the Final Four I read in certain topics (too young to know personally) that he had a small lineup. I am very optimistic about this season.

Feel free to correct me & leave your personal thoughts.

[drewheck 749]

This is one of the biggest reasons I'm not sold on Crean as the long term guy at IU. I don't want a coach who's system can't figure out how to best utilize a talent like Noah Vonleh. I don't want a coach who can't figure how to incorporate or alter his system to fit his roster. What happens when the next stud Indiana back to the basket player comes up? Are we going to argue Crean shouldn't take him?

I want a coach who can change and alter his system based on the talent he has.

Coach K has had stud bigs, stud wings, stud point guards and he's won with all of them. He's had teams run/gun and he's had teams play slow/defensive and he's won both ways.

Look at Cal, at Memphis he was the point guard coach with DeJuan Wagner, Rose and Tyreke Evans. While he's still had great guards at UK, he's also had Cousins, Davis, Noel and Randle and now Towns, Lyles, Lee and the other big kid from the '13 class. He's adapted to all of them.

While I agree Crean is probably best with a big like Hanner, I'm not sure I want a coach that's limited like that.

I agree we under utilize bugs but last year all we really had was yogi and Noah and Noah got double and triple teamed last year of he were here this year he would get the ball almost every time down the court for us to use a good big man we have to have shooters

[WayneFleekHoosier 50,716]

I agree we under utilize bugs but last year all we really had was yogi and Noah and Noah got double and triple teamed last year of he were here this year he would get the ball almost every time down the court for us to use a good big man we have to have shooters

agree. Noah got abused and the BIG refs let it happen. Probably should have shot 100 more FTs if the refs called the fouls on the wrists.

We needed a third option badly last year and BETTER chemistry. No one ever really stepped up. Stan had moments but couldn't shoot. Same for Troy. Gordon was a role player type. Sheehey was bad early. Came on later. It seemed we had the talent last year but I think the selfishness, chemistry issued trumped the talent. Ball stuck in people's hands. Never a team with the willingness to win as a team. It was a me first NBA mindset for many.

[drewheck 749]

agree. Noah got abused and the BIG refs let it happen. Probably should have shot 100 more FTs if the refs called the fouls on the wrists.

We needed a third option badly last year and BETTER chemistry. No one ever really stepped up. Stan had moments but couldn't shoot. Same for Troy. Gordon was a role player type. Sheehey was bad early. Came on later. It seemed we had the talent last year but I think the selfishness, chemistry issued trumped the talent. Ball stuck in people's hands. Never a team with the willingness to win as a team. It was a me first NBA mindset for many.

exactly

[rebelhoosier848891 9,588]

Excellent discussion---We don't have Noah this year--but I actually think we have more scoring options.  Hanner is looking like he will be solid---we just need to have a solid backup for him which I believe will end up being Holt. If we can just keep from getting killed on the boards and play some solid post D---we can make up for deficiencies with our great guards.

 

If I had to choose between great guards or a great post player(s)---I will go with the guards anytime. Teams with good guard play advance in the tourney---not necessarily so for bigs.

[BGleas 8,955]

Definitely agree, we needed a third option, better chemistry, and we needed some shooters around Yogi, Noah and whoever that third option would have been. 

 

On the points about Noah, I have my own opinion on that, but I don't think it needs to be rehashed, and really isn't the point of my original comment. My point was that we always see posts like "Crean doesn't do well with traditional bigs" or "Crean's system doesn't work with post-up bigs". If that is true, then that's not a complete coach to me. Any coach that can't utilize his talent or shape his system to fit his talent, is a very limited coach IMO. 

 

The real thing that has made me question Crean wasn't necessarily the losing last year, it was IMO his refusal to alter his system to fit the talent we had. The insistence to play fast with a team that was horrible at playing under control and handling the ball. Running the dribble drive when you had horrible ball handlers, no shooters, and your best two players were your point guard and center? Why are Stan, Troy and Evan drilling 25 seconds of the shot clock off with their heads down, while Noah basically stands there and watches and never touches the ball? Put your best talent in a position to be successful. 

 

I just prefer a coach that analyzes his talent and then plays a style that fits what he has, as opposed to a coach that tries to force a square peg into a round whole. I think Crean is the latter. 

agree. Noah got abused and the BIG refs let it happen. Probably should have shot 100 more FTs if the refs called the fouls on the wrists.

We needed a third option badly last year and BETTER chemistry. No one ever really stepped up. Stan had moments but couldn't shoot. Same for Troy. Gordon was a role player type. Sheehey was bad early. Came on later. It seemed we had the talent last year but I think the selfishness, chemistry issued trumped the talent. Ball stuck in people's hands. Never a team with the willingness to win as a team. It was a me first NBA mindset for many.

[Walking Boot of Doom 18,170]

This is one of the biggest reasons I'm not sold on Crean as the long term guy at IU. I don't want a coach who's system can't figure out how to best utilize a talent like Noah Vonleh. I don't want a coach who can't figure how to incorporate or alter his system to fit his roster. What happens when the next stud Indiana back to the basket player comes up? Are we going to argue Crean shouldn't take him?

I want a coach who can change and alter his system based on the talent he has.

Coach K has had stud bigs, stud wings, stud point guards and he's won with all of them. He's had teams run/gun and he's had teams play slow/defensive and he's won both ways.

Look at Cal, at Memphis he was the point guard coach with DeJuan Wagner, Rose and Tyreke Evans. While he's still had great guards at UK, he's also had Cousins, Davis, Noel and Randle and now Towns, Lyles, Lee and the other big kid from the '13 class. He's adapted to all of them.

While I agree Crean is probably best with a big like Hanner, I'm not sure I want a coach that's limited like that.

I think there are two completely acceptable ways to approach this. You can be a coach that can adjust and win with anyone, or you can be a coach with a winning game plan and recruit only players that fit the mold.

Both are totally fine with me, as long as they produce consistent wins. Crean hasn't proven he can recruit the players to fit his system. This year may change that. 2012-2013 was a glimpse of it.

[BGleas 8,955]

I guess my point is that I'll take the coach that can adjust and win with anyone everyday of the week and twice on Sunday. 

 

What happens when/if (huge if) the next Greg Oden comes out of Indianapolis? If Crean is the latter type of coach, does he not recruit the kid? Does he recruit him and then force him (for discussion sake the most talented player on his team) to play a style that doesn't fit his game? 

 

Even Bo Ryan altered his system last season to fit his personnel, and it was a brilliant move. He played a more up and down style that was conducive to his talent and it paid off. 

 

I also think the "system" coach works at a place like Wisconsin where you get good players, but you're not necessarily a destination school. You're not really even in the running for guys like Vonleh, etc. At IU the recruiting is different. Your pool to select from is larger and more talented, so you're going to have to be able to adapt to that. You can't turn down 5* kids at IU because they don't fit your system, you have to adapt to the talent. 

 

It's a preference thing, and I certainly understand the other side of the debate. 

 

I think there are two completely acceptable ways to approach this. You can be a coach that can adjust and win with anyone, or you can be a coach with a winning game plan and recruit only players that fit the mold.

Both are totally fine with me, as long as they produce consistent wins. Crean hasn't proven he can recruit the players to fit his system. This year may change that. 2012-2013 was a glimpse of it.

[jonz44 838]

I don't really believe it will be a huge problem on offense. Defensively and keeping opposing teams from killing them on the offensive glass? Gonna be a big problem!

[Basketball4iU 2,006]

agree. Noah got abused and the BIG refs let it happen. Probably should have shot 100 more FTs if the refs called the fouls on the wrists.

We needed a third option badly last year and BETTER chemistry. No one ever really stepped up. Stan had moments but couldn't shoot. Same for Troy. Gordon was a role player type. Sheehey was bad early. Came on later. It seemed we had the talent last year but I think the selfishness, chemistry issued trumped the talent. Ball stuck in people's hands. Never a team with the willingness to win as a team. It was a me first NBA mindset for many.

Unfortunately, it is very rarely an IU mindset like we were used to, thus, the current problems and one n dones.