Michigan Coach Dusty May to Dallas Mavs

[AH1971]

40 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said:

So much of our last 27 seasons have been self inflicted.  

Of our hires I would argue only 1 hire was a serious hire. 
 

Davis and Woodson were joke hires by completely unserious organizations  

Crean and Miller were meh hires but not up to the quality that a supposed Blue Blood program   And you only fire Crean if you think we are still a Blue Blood  

Samson was a serious hire  

DD I’m unsure about  I thought he was serious but his complete flub of the staff and the roster last year makes me question that  

 

 

Recent blue blood hires

Mark Pope—-zero tournament wins at Utah Valley/BYU

Mike Malone—-zero college HC experience 

Hubert Davis—-zero head coaching experience 

John Scheyer—-zero head coaching experience

Mick Cronin—4 tournament wins in 16 years Murray St/Cincinnati; never made it past first weekend 

Yet Tom Crean (F4) and Archie Miller (E8) were meh hires? What do you call the hires above? At least those schools above have been relevant this century. It’s not 1985, the allure of this job doesn’t exist anymore. The last 3 national title winning coaches came from FAU, San Francisco, and Rhode Island. What is a serious hire today? What serious coach is coming to Bloomington? Blue blood means absolutely nothing in today’s climate.

[Brass Cannon]

6 minutes ago, AH1971 said:

Recent blue blood hires

Mark Pope—-zero tournament wins at Utah Valley/BYU

Mike Malone—-zero college HC experience 

Hubert Davis—-zero head coaching experience 

John Scheyer—-zero head coaching experience

Mick Cronin—4 tournament wins in 16 years Murray St/Cincinnati; never made it past first weekend 

Yet Tom Crean (F4) and Archie Miller (E8) were meh hires? What do you call the hires above? At least those schools above have been relevant this century. It’s not 1985 any more. The allure of this job doesn’t exist anymore. The last 3 national title winning coaches came from FAU, San Francisco, and Rhode Island. What is a serious hire today? What serious coach is coming to Bloomington? Blue blood means absolutely nothing in today’s climate.

I would also say those 5 hires aren’t serious hires. 1 is already fired and 2 are probably a broken shoelace away from getting fired. 

[AH1971]

1 minute ago, Brass Cannon said:

I would also say those 5 hires aren’t serious hires. 1 is already fired and 2 are probably a broken shoelace away from getting hired. 

So if actual relevant programs can’t make a serious hire….

[Brass Cannon]

2 minutes ago, AH1971 said:

So if actual relevant programs can’t make a serious hire….

They can make serious hires.  They choose not too. And calling UCLA relevant is a bit of a stretch. 

And to hard to Criticize Duke since their hire is actually working out.  Hard to replace a legend as is   And he was also hand selected by that legend.  Hard to say no to that  

 

[AH1971]

10 hours ago, Brass Cannon said:

They can make serious hires.  They choose not too. And calling UCLA relevant is a bit of a stretch. 

And to hard to Criticize Duke since their hire is actually working out.  Hard to replace a legend as is   And he was also hand selected by that legend.  Hard to say no to that  

 

Can they? Kentucky was turned down 5 different times? So was UNC this last go around. Mick Cronin was UCLA's 20th choice back when he was hired, they couldn't even pry Jamie Dixon from TCU. Why would someone like Nate Oats want to leave his comfy perch and go coach at Batsh*t Crazy U...just so he can immediately be fired in 2-3 years for not winning a national title? You don’t need to coach at a blue blood to win a national title these days.

[Crazy about IU]

I remember having this argument with my brother . He said who is IU going to be able to get to do any better than what we have. I said a successful mid major coach. I said they are out there. Then along came Cig. The bottom line is coaches make a huge difference in all sports. There are a lot of good to ok coaches out there. But only a few hall of fame. Also IU has the resources to be very successful in basketball. Only time will tell if the current coach has what it takes. I feel our talent level last year was below par for the Big. This year looks different. I hope coach D gets me off the fence. This team has enough talent to compete at the top of the Big. 

[Brass Cannon]

17 hours ago, AH1971 said:

Can they? Kentucky was turned down 5 different times? So was UNC this last go around. Mick Cronin was UCLA's 20th choice back when he was hired, they couldn't even pry Jamie Dixon from TCU. Why would someone like Nate Oats want to leave his comfy perch and go coach at Batsh*t Crazy U...just so he can immediately be fired in 2-3 years for not winning a national title? You don’t need to coach at a blue blood to win a national title these days.

I never said you had to steal a national title contending coach. But if you can’t see the difference between Coach DD and Woody I have some property to sell you. 

[AH1971]

59 minutes ago, Crazy about IU said:

I remember having this argument with my brother . He said who is IU going to be able to get to do any better than what we have. I said a successful mid major coach. I said they are out there. Then along came Cig. The bottom line is coaches make a huge difference in all sports. There are a lot of good to ok coaches out there. But only a few hall of fame. Also IU has the resources to be very successful in basketball. Only time will tell if the current coach has what it takes. I feel our talent level last year was below par for the Big. This year looks different. I hope coach D gets me off the fence. This team has enough talent to compete at the top of the Big. 

The problem with going the mid-major route…are you going to give that mid-major coach time to get his feet wet and figure it out? This fan base has put this job so high up on a pedestal that simply doesn’t exist. It’s a lose-lose. 

[AH1971]

1 minute ago, Brass Cannon said:

I never said you had to steal a national title contending coach. But if you can’t see the difference between Coach DD and Woody I have some property to sell you. 

Mike Woodson made the tournament his first year and was contending for a B10 title in year 2. 
 

What do you have for sale if I may ask?

[skhoosier2]

23 hours ago, str8baller said:

Would we? Tom Allen is basically the football version of Crean. Booting him was a great idea. And I have to admit I was skeptical on that one as I certainly didn’t have the vision for IU football that Cig/Dolson had. 
 

To bring the thread full circle, when you see what guys like Cig and May were able to do in 2 years what’s the impetus for hanging on to mediocre coaches for 4+ years? That is, of course, if you have desires for a championship program. What I have learned over the past 2 1/2 decades is that a lot of IU basketball fans are fine with Crean-like results. So maybe I’m in the minority here. 

The basketball program has been on life support. So for me yes, I’d take a few big 10 championships and a couple sweet 16 appearances. It’s been dead so long all I really hope for at this point is a tournament team yearly lol 

Tom Allen needed to go just as Crean needed to go when he went. Cig is a unicorn. Football is a cash cow for universities and if I had gun to head choose basketball or football I’m choosing football all day long. Hopefully CDD turns the program in a positive direction. But I am under no illusion anyone is doing what Cig did anytime soon. 

[skhoosier2]

18 hours ago, Brass Cannon said:

So much of our last 27 seasons have been self inflicted.  

Of our hires I would argue only 1 hire was a serious hire. 
 

Davis and Woodson were joke hires by completely unserious organizations  

Crean and Miller were meh hires but not up to the quality that a supposed Blue Blood program   And you only fire Crean if you think we are still a Blue Blood  

Samson was a serious hire  

DD I’m unsure about  I thought he was serious but his complete flub of the staff and the roster last year makes me question that  

 

 

Would agree with 99% of this with the exception of Crean who I think was the only willing decent coach at the time to want to take the job. He had been to a final 4 and developed some talent so while I agree Miller was definitely meh, I would argue Crean was above him but a tier below Sampson. Crean had deficiencies that were exposed at IU. He was good for what we needed him for but he was never the championship level coach those that hired him hoped he would be. 

Sampson can coach and would have won here. Until the old guard gets out of its own way, we will always be on the hunt for the next Bob Knight. Sampson wasn’t squeaky clean enough for the masses. He was never going to succeed because many just flat out didn’t want him coaching IUBB. We’ve made so many mistakes in hiring since firing BK. Davis being the biggest then Miller and Woodson closely to follow. CDD remains to be seen. Last year didn’t invoke a lot of confidence but time will tell. 

[AH1971]

10 minutes ago, skhoosier2 said:

Would agree with 99% of this with the exception of Crean who I think was the only willing decent coach at the time to want to take the job. He had been to a final 4 and developed some talent so while I agree Miller was definitely meh, I would argue Crean was above him but a tier below Sampson. Crean had deficiencies that were exposed at IU. He was good for what we needed him for but he was never the championship level coach those that hired him hoped he would be. 

Sampson can coach and would have won here. Until the old guard gets out of its own way, we will always be on the hunt for the next Bob Knight. Sampson wasn’t squeaky clean enough for the masses. He was never going to succeed because many just flat out didn’t want him coaching IUBB. We’ve made so many mistakes in hiring since firing BK. Davis being the biggest then Miller and Woodson closely to follow. CDD remains to be seen. Last year didn’t invoke a lot of confidence but time will tell. 

Hiring Kelvin Sampson was the biggest mistake IU made in the post-Knight era

[str8baller]

48 minutes ago, AH1971 said:

Mike Woodson made the tournament his first year and was contending for a B10 title in year 2. 
 

What do you have for sale if I may ask?

It’s the difference between understanding a sport and thus the coach’s flaws versus just looking at results. 
 

As someone said above, process vs results. Fans look at results and make up post hoc rationalizations. Good AD can identify the process. 
 

btw, you never answered my question: how did IU hire Cig if they’re incapable of great hires?

[WayneFleekHoosier]

53 minutes ago, AH1971 said:

Mike Woodson made the tournament his first year and was contending for a B10 title in year 2. 
 

What do you have for sale if I may ask?

“Contending for a B10 title in year 2”. 
 

lol. We did finish tied for 2nd with Northwestern AT 12-8.  Basically half of the conference was clustered below Purdue that year. He had TJD at his dominance.  He Felt he had a national champion contender and floundered that team too. 
 

You can’t defend Woodson as a good college coach. You can say he was an average college basketball coach. And that is fair. But he did that with above average resources.  
 

There aren’t too many Woodson defenders.  In fact there are so few, I feel like the ones that do are personally invested.  

[AH1971]

8 minutes ago, str8baller said:

It’s the difference between understanding a sport and thus the coach’s flaws versus just looking at results. 
 

As someone said above, process vs results. Fans look at results and make up post hoc rationalizations. Good AD can identify the process. 
 

btw, you never answered my question: how did IU hire Cig if they’re incapable of great hires?

Which coach doesn’t have flaws? There’s X amount of coaches good enough to reach a F4, win multiple B10 championships and consistently recruit/develop first round talent. If that isn’t good enough for IU, well, we’ll be doing this for awhile. 
 

How did IU hire Cig? Pure luck. There’s no reason that guy should have been available for IU to hire in the first place. 

[AH1971]

1 minute ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:

“Contending for a B10 title in year 2”. 
 

lol. We did finish tied for 2nd with Northwestern AT 12-8.  Basically half of the conference was clustered below Purdue that year. He had TJD at his dominance.  He Felt he had a national champion contender and floundered that team too. 
 

You can’t defend Woodson as a good college coach. You can say he was an average college basketball coach. And that is fair. But he did that with above average resources.  
 

There aren’t too many Woodson defenders.  In fact there are so few, I feel like the ones that do are personally invested.  

I’ve never claimed Woodson a good college coach by the way. But the fan base turned on him the second there was some adversity in year 3 despite some moderate success in years 1 and 2 and it was over. It just fuels the reason why this fishbowl job is continually stuck in neutral.

[WayneFleekHoosier]

11 minutes ago, AH1971 said:

I’ve never claimed Woodson a good college coach by the way. But the fan base turned on him the second there was some adversity in year 3 despite some moderate success in years 1 and 2 and it was over. It just fuels the reason why this fishbowl job is continually stuck in neutral.

We don’t agree on this.  Even year 2 was an under achievement and that was the year he needed to makes some noise with TJD.  Year 3 was just added proof of flaws. He did some things with Substitution patterns that was mindblowingly bad.  He forced a defense the team never understood.  He did things from a basic level that were so misguided.  
 

For the most part his Out of time out plays were great. Talent acquisition was mostly good, but he couldn’t identify good guards and that might have been his ultimate downfall.  
 

The fans knew he didn’t have it.  The agents were already over it. He had his chance.  It wasn’t horrible but it wasn’t good enough and it was never going to be good enough.  He wasn’t going coach forever, he’s an older man. Bad hire in the first place.  It was a 4-5 year hire imo.  When you get to year 3 and lose your momentum at that age, it’s over.  

Edited 18 hours ago by WayneFleekHoosier

[skhoosier2]

27 minutes ago, AH1971 said:

Hiring Kelvin Sampson was the biggest mistake IU made in the post-Knight era

Kelvin Sampson was always going to fail at IU because Knight disciples didn’t want him there. He made mistakes ofcourse but there’s not one doubt the man can coach, and he above all others we hired could have won at the  level IUBB was looking for. 

Woodson was a terrible hire that got lucky he was buddies with QB and had TJD to make him look a little bit successful. 

[AH1971]

9 minutes ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:

We don’t agree on this.  Even year 2 was an under achievement and that was the year he needed to makes some noise with TJD.  Year 3 was just added proof of flaws. He did some things with Substitution patterns that was mindblowingly bad.  He forced a defense the team never understood.  He did things from a basic level that were so misguided.  
 

For the most part his Out of time out plays were great. Talent acquisition was mostly good, but he couldn’t identify good guards and that might have been his ultimate downfall.  
 

The fans knew he didn’t have it.  The agents were already over it. He had his chance.  It wasn’t horrible but it wasn’t good enough and it was never going to be good enough.  He wasn’t going coach forever, he’s an older man. Bad hire in the first place.  It was a 4-5 year hire imo.  When you get to year 3 and lose your momentum at that age, it’s over.  

IU was a top 15-20 team for the majority of the season in year 2 and lost 2 starters at the beginning of conference season for an extended period of time. Calling that an underachievement based on where IU has been the majority of this century is the exact reason why nobody takes this program seriously. 

[Brass Cannon]

54 minutes ago, skhoosier2 said:

Would agree with 99% of this with the exception of Crean who I think was the only willing decent coach at the time to want to take the job. He had been to a final 4 and developed some talent so while I agree Miller was definitely meh, I would argue Crean was above him but a tier below Sampson. Crean had deficiencies that were exposed at IU. He was good for what we needed him for but he was never the championship level coach those that hired him hoped he would be. 

Sampson can coach and would have won here. Until the old guard gets out of its own way, we will always be on the hunt for the next Bob Knight. Sampson wasn’t squeaky clean enough for the masses. He was never going to succeed because many just flat out didn’t want him coaching IUBB. We’ve made so many mistakes in hiring since firing BK. Davis being the biggest then Miller and Woodson closely to follow. CDD remains to be seen. Last year didn’t invoke a lot of confidence but time will tell. 

That’s a fair point about Crean.  I wasn’t as plugged into that search as I was subsequent ones.  
 

Crean would probably be successful here now in NIL.  He couldn’t build long term relationships but had an eye for talent.  The guys we missed out on were often very good