IU’s basketball culture is dead (and the case for why our next coach should be given 6+ seasons)

[AH1971]

5 minutes ago, hoopsta007 said:

With the right amount of money coaches can be bought.  Would he have to be overpaid, definitely.  But that is where fans expect the program to be. Totally invested into winning.  We are shopping the bargain aisle, overpaying the discount coach, and ignoring better options. Sad state of affairs if we can’t bring in someone who would be a top 5 B1G coach.

We had to overpay to get an unproven coach in DeVries. You're nuts if you think a top flight coach is coming here, money be damned. Another post that shows how out of touch with reality this fan base can be at times.

[Home Jersey]

 

2 minutes ago, AH1971 said:

It becomes increasingly harder to consistently make the tournament when you're constantly shuffling coaches and turning over rosters all while starting from scratch. If you haven't paid attention to that the last 20 years I beg to ask what you've been doing?

Excusing Crean's first 3 years as he started from ground zero without a roster or the transfer portal, he won two B10 titles and made the second weekend on three different occasions in essentially a 6 year period. The fan base and administration determined that wasn't enough. He was fired because he didn't win a national title. 

You're right, making the field of 68 isn't a monumental task, but appeasing a delusional fan base if it doesn't happen in years 1 or 2 becomes redundant. 

The fan base doesn't determine anything. The staff does. The administration does. Guys ranting on the internet about how IUBB isn't meeting their personal criteria for success, do not.

Crean had a lot going on. You could make the case he deserved more time but his tenure at UGA strongly suggests things wouldn't have gotten better. Only worse.

DDV may well be the one to break the 4 year cycle... Lord knows IU needs that. But it has to be the right guy. Delusional fans that may be mad that we didn't hire Pitino or Pearl or somebody are not a contributing factor to the success or failure of the coach. 

[HoosierCoop]

I'm going to dip my toe into this water...

Final Four goals are great, but unrealistic at this point.

At least make the tournament (Goal #1).  Every year that our name is not called on Selection Sunday is another step into mediocrity.  To make the tournament pretty much spells out your season that you were able to win the games you should have and you were competitve enough compared to top talent.  I am not saying this is all easy (especially with NIL, portal, and roster changes), but it is more obtainable and should be the fast track to setting a consistency or culture.  To make the tournament 1 out of every 5 years is not going to cut it.

At least make the first/second round every year and then let's look at setting new goals.  I think you could repair this fanbase and bring back the enthusiasm that was lost.  At least this is what i'm starving for.

[AH1971]

3 minutes ago, Home Jersey said:

 

The fan base doesn't determine anything. The staff does. The administration does. Guys ranting on the internet about how IUBB isn't meeting their personal criteria for success, do not.

Crean had a lot going on. You could make the case he deserved more time but his tenure at UGA strongly suggests things wouldn't have gotten better. Only worse.

DDV may well be the one to break the 4 year cycle... Lord knows IU needs that. But it has to be the right guy. Delusional fans that may be mad that we didn't hire Pitino or Pearl or somebody are not a contributing factor to the success or failure of the coach. 

You don't think there was internal as well as external pressure to get rid of Crean? Nonsense. I knew he was toast after the Syracuse game and yet he somehow rebounded and won another conference title. What he did at Georgia really doesn't phase me because it's irrelevant to Indiana. But the idea that IU was going to get rid of coach who won two B10 titles in a 4 year span and replace him with someone like Billy Donovan or Brad Stevens just never made sense to me. 

[BluegrassHoosier859]

46 minutes ago, Golfman25 said:

Cig has certain characteristics common with all winning coaches.  Figure out what those are and find a winner.  

All of the comparisons our fans try to make between Cig and the basketball coach are ridiculous. Cig is a 1 of 1 and completed the greatest and fastest turn around in CFB history. He won big and he did it instantly. We say about IUBB all the time - Winning solves everything and thats exactly what Cig did. We can look back now at all the things cig said when he was hired, the expectations he set for the program, etc. but the main reason he is different is because he won.

The idea that we should be able to hit a homerun hire for the basketball coach just because we hired Cig and should look for a guy with his same traits is insane. It sounds good in theory, and I agree a lot of his traits are the traits you would want in a head coach but if it was that easy Cig wouldnt be a 1 of 1.

[str8baller]

1 hour ago, AH1971 said:

He was fired because he didn't win a national title. 

This is completely wrong. And fans that think this was will never get it. 
 

Crean was fired because he was NEVER going to win a championship. And if you can’t understand that, there’s not any point in having the discussion.

[AH1971]

15 minutes ago, str8baller said:

This is completely wrong. And fans that think this was will never get it. 
 

Crean was fired because he was NEVER going to win a championship. And if you can’t understand that, there’s not any point in having the discussion.

So it isn't about just simply making the tournament like others have stated? Got it.

We deserve everything we get it. 

[Golfman25]

1 hour ago, BluegrassHoosier859 said:

All of the comparisons our fans try to make between Cig and the basketball coach are ridiculous. Cig is a 1 of 1 and completed the greatest and fastest turn around in CFB history. He won big and he did it instantly. We say about IUBB all the time - Winning solves everything and thats exactly what Cig did. We can look back now at all the things cig said when he was hired, the expectations he set for the program, etc. but the main reason he is different is because he won.

The idea that we should be able to hit a homerun hire for the basketball coach just because we hired Cig and should look for a guy with his same traits is insane. It sounds good in theory, and I agree a lot of his traits are the traits you would want in a head coach but if it was that easy Cig wouldnt be a 1 of 1.

Missing the point.  It's not about replicating Cig's results.  Cig has certain characteristics that all winning coaches have.  You just have to model those characteristics on your hires.  Obviously your not going to duplicate Cig and what it did an a record short time, but you can find coaches like him.

Just off the top of my head, here's the Cig model:

1) Self Assurance (politically correct term for arrogance, cockiness, etc.)  Cig checks this box.  

2) Will to prepare to win --   Nobody is going to out work Cig.  

3) Has a vision and can communicate it -- Fast, Physical, Relentless.  

4) Has High expectations -- with everything around the program.  From players to the freaking carpeting in the offices.  

5) Process driven -- results are due to the process.  It's multiplication, not addition.  That's how you take some stars and win championships.  

Cig is a 5+ in all of the above.  Bob Knight would get high scores in all of the above. 

Woodson was an epic failure in #2, weak in #5, talked a game in #4, but didn't produce.

Archie, 3 and below at best in all of them. 

Now, where is CDDv?  I'm not sure -- jury is still out.  

[Golfman25]

2 hours ago, HoosierCoop said:

I'm going to dip my toe into this water...

Final Four goals are great, but unrealistic at this point.

At least make the tournament (Goal #1).  Every year that our name is not called on Selection Sunday is another step into mediocrity.  To make the tournament pretty much spells out your season that you were able to win the games you should have and you were competitve enough compared to top talent.  I am not saying this is all easy (especially with NIL, portal, and roster changes), but it is more obtainable and should be the fast track to setting a consistency or culture.  To make the tournament 1 out of every 5 years is not going to cut it.

At least make the first/second round every year and then let's look at setting new goals.  I think you could repair this fanbase and bring back the enthusiasm that was lost.  At least this is what i'm starving for.

As I have said in the past, it's a numbers game.  First is make the tournament regularly.  Once you get in, you have a chance to get to the Sweet 16.  Start getting that far, and then a little luck takes over to go to 8 and 4.  But the more you're in it, the more chances you have to advance.  If you're only in it once in a while, then the most likely result is bounced in the first weekend.  

[HoosierHoopster]

16 hours ago, AH1971 said:

For me, the realization came after we Fired Crean and the subsequent coaching search that followed. I think that was the first time I realized how big the disconnect between fanbase/administration and reality really was.

The national media/audience laughed at IU for firing a coach who essentially won two B10 outright titles in a 6 year span with multiple second weekend appearances after bringing the program back from the dead. Meanwhile, we told ourselves we were poaching Billy Donovan from the NBA lol. Every coaching search that has followed has been equally entertaining and just brings out the worst in a section of the fan base. 
 

There’s no easy fix to this, if a fix at all depending on your expectations. We’ve been searching for our next “General” for almost 30 years…10 years ago in finally came to the conclusion that he doesn’t exist. 

We had him in Sampson. Seriously. I fully get he was violating NCAA rules (that went away the very next season) and the player culture in particular (drugs, failing classes) was bad, but we were 24-4 when the administration stupidly fired him and unilaterally destroyed the entire bball program, and as is completely obvious, Sampson is one of the best coaches in DI ball and has single-handedly turned U of Houston into a perennial bball powerhouse. 

[AH1971]

2 minutes ago, HoosierHoopster said:

We had him in Sampson. Seriously. I fully get he was violating NCAA rules (that went away the very next season) and the player culture in particular (drugs, failing classes) was bad, but we were 24-4 when the administration stupidly fired him and unilaterally destroyed the entire bball program, and as is completely obvious, Sampson is one of the best coaches in DI ball and has single-handedly turned U of Houston into a perennial bball powerhouse. 

I think it was stupid to hire him in the first place. I don't think we had a choice in firing him as the NCAA made that clear.

But agree, he's one of the best in the business.

[HoosierHoopster]

1 hour ago, str8baller said:

This is completely wrong. And fans that think this was will never get it. 
 

Crean was fired because he was NEVER going to win a championship. And if you can’t understand that, there’s not any point in having the discussion.

I continue to be more or less on the fence re the Crean firing. He wasn't a good x's and o's / sideline or defensive coach, and he probably wasn't ever going to win a title, but he did win B1G championships and take the team to multiple SW16's built on exceptional recruiting of multiple players who were some of the best or better players ever to play for IU and/or some of our favorite IU players ever, Cody, Yogi, Vic, Wat, Hulls, etc. That team that lost to Cuse in the SW16 was absolutely a title contender, and Hulls was injured and unable to spread the floor to help break the zone in that game. Of course, Crean's luster had largely worn off in HS recruiting and he was never consistent, good seasons followed by bad because of the way he recruiting and bringing in players who never should've played at IU let alone any power program. But as is obvious, the program lacked a good plan for his replacement and it was followed by 8 years of the worst basketball this program has seen. 

People keep saying we haven't been good or a power program or whatever for the last 20 years. That's complete BS. We were very relevant and a contender for multiple years under Crean, and we were outstanding under Sampson's short tenure. We've been horrible after Crean was fired because of Archie and Woodson. It isn't a 20 year problem, it's an 8-year problem, and whether DeVries can right the ship starting this offseason remains to be seen.

[HoosierHoopster]

7 minutes ago, AH1971 said:

I think it was stupid to hire him in the first place. I don't think we had a choice in firing him as the NCAA made that clear.

But agree, he's one of the best in the business.

Whether the decision to fire him was the correct one is debatable. For me the player/team culture was a real issue, but the phone call / Sampsongate allegations were what was stupid (and not even violations the very next year). Compare what UNC did -- after a much more significant scandal and NCAA violations in the complete fake African American Studies program, fake/non-existent classes. They fought the NCAA, and ended up completely fine. IU chose to roll over after self-reporting, and self-imposed program-ending sanctions. We absolutely had a choice. The way the administration handled it, completely gutting the program unilaterally, was utterly stupid and is why were are where we are today.

[pumpfake]

2 minutes ago, HoosierHoopster said:

Whether the decision to fire him was the correct one is debatable. For me the player/team culture was a real issue, but the phone call / Sampsongate allegations were what was stupid (and not even violations the very next year). Compare what UNC did -- after a much more significant scandal and NCAA violations in the complete fake African American Studies program, fake/non-existent classes. They fought the NCAA, and ended up completely fine. IU chose to roll over after self-reporting, and self-imposed program-ending sanctions. We absolutely had a choice. The way the administration handled it, completely gutting the program unilaterally, was utterly stupid and is why were are where we are today.

What was "stupid" was the coach repeating the infraction he was already on probation for.  Just pisspoor judgement, which extended to player selection and program discipline.

Maybe he finally learned to walk a straight path (?).  I wouldn't be shocked to learned he still does and allows questionable things at UH (he may be more careful or be at a place that turns a blind eye).

[IUCrazy2]

3 hours ago, AH1971 said:

My point was this...had Cignetti gone .500 for 4 straight year while DeVries simultaneously went .500 for 4 straight years, who stays and who goes? Cignetti gets a contract extension and is on the fast path to becoming the best coach in program history while DeVries is shown the door. The expectations for football and basketball are night and day, despite the basketball program being largely irrelevant for the last 30 years. You get 1, maybe 2 years as the basketball coach before the fanbase turns on you.  

Fair but that also goes back to my point, the expectations for the basketball program are high because from a resources standpoint, they had always been treated like a Top 10 program and there was a history there.  To whom much is given, much will be required.

Honestly, a new coach that can string together just 4 straight tournament appearances is going to get a bunch of leeway here.  Woodson was awful but bought himself a modicum of goodwill by just limping into the tournament.  6-6 is 4 straight post season appearances in football for a team that could count on barely more than one hand the total it had before then.  4 straight tourney appearances in basketball right now will have people feeling like a foundation is being built.  Win a few of those games and the roof will come off.

The fans can be a blessing and a curse, but right now they are the ONLY thing this program can hang it's hat on.  You saw what that looked like for football in the post season.  And I think that is starting to wane quite a bit.  The fanbase is really apathetic right now and the response to this meh season has been meh.  Now is the chance to do something because a bunch of the fans have already moved IU basketball down a few tiers on their to do list.

[Pagoda]

20 minutes ago, HoosierHoopster said:

Whether the decision to fire him was the correct one is debatable. For me the player/team culture was a real issue, but the phone call / Sampsongate allegations were what was stupid (and not even violations the very next year). Compare what UNC did -- after a much more significant scandal and NCAA violations in the complete fake African American Studies program, fake/non-existent classes. They fought the NCAA, and ended up completely fine. IU chose to roll over after self-reporting, and self-imposed program-ending sanctions. We absolutely had a choice. The way the administration handled it, completely gutting the program unilaterally, was utterly stupid and is why were are where we are today.

Yep.  It's too bad.

I guess some people may not like this, but what we needed at the time was a strong AD and President that could work through it with Kelvin.  He's a stubborn, very strong personality in person.  He is a very good coach.  And don't get me wrong, he screwed up.  But I think he could have got back on track with guidance.

A strong AD would have talked to him about the roster building.  We don't need or expect a team of choir boys, but we were going too far the other direction, including incoming dudes like Bud Mackey.  Kelvin had to get the team culture to a more reasonable spot.

Then there were those stupid texts and calls.  This is such a weak violation, though it was undeniably dumb as hell on Kelvin's part.  Maybe this makes me an ethics failure, but I would have been pragmatic -- tear up those records and ask Kelvin (i) why the hell are you thinking doing this, (ii) how are you so dumb to leave a paper trail, and (iii) why did you not tell us you needed more calls/texts to compete so we could think through it.  Read him the riot act.  

Do those two things... who knows what happens.  Maybe he ends up working out, maybe he still goes off the rails and it never works.  But I think there was a better way to handle what happened, and I'll say once again I'm not absolving Kelvin at all.

[pumpfake]

13 minutes ago, HoosierHoopster said:

I continue to be more or less on the fence re the Crean firing. He wasn't a good x's and o's / sideline or defensive coach, and he probably wasn't ever going to win a title, but he did win B1G championships and take the team to multiple SW16's built on exceptional recruiting of multiple players who were some of the best or better players ever to play for IU and/or some of our favorite IU players ever, Cody, Yogi, Vic, Wat, Hulls, etc. That team that lost to Cuse in the SW16 was absolutely a title contender, and Hulls was injured and unable to spread the floor to help break the zone in that game. Of course, Crean's luster had largely worn off in HS recruiting and he was never consistent, good seasons followed by bad because of the way he recruiting and bringing in players who never should've played at IU let alone any power program. But as is obvious, the program lacked a good plan for his replacement and it was followed by 8 years of the worst basketball this program has seen. 

People keep saying we haven't been good or a power program or whatever for the last 20 years. That's complete BS. We were very relevant and a contender for multiple years under Crean, and we were outstanding under Sampson's short tenure. We've been horrible after Crean was fired because of Archie and Woodson. It isn't a 20 year problem, it's an 8-year problem, and whether DeVries can right the ship starting this offseason remains to be seen.

Yep.  Bad hires have consequences.

Winning championships takes a combination of many factors. We lost out on a big chance when Alan Henderson injured his knee, but that was a championship level team. We lost to Syracuse because they were a superb zone defensive team - I believe that was our Achilles heel, especially with Hulls hurt. We're now in a long drought of not being at the top level, but really have only been "bad" after Crean.  Eight years of lousy coaching has dug a deep hole.

[Magnanimous]

6 minutes ago, pumpfake said:

Yep.  Bad hires have consequences.

Winning championships takes a combination of many factors. We lost out on a big chance when Alan Henderson injured his knee, but that was a championship level team. We lost to Syracuse because they were a superb zone defensive team - I believe that was our Achilles heel, especially with Hulls hurt. We're now in a long drought of not being at the top level, but really have only been "bad" after Crean.  Eight years of lousy coaching has dug a deep hole.

It feels longer nationally though because we haven’t been past the SW16 in 24 years, and we actually only did it once in 32 years…The lack of postseason runs has been killing us, and that goes back much longer than 8 years. 

[pumpfake]

2 minutes ago, Pagoda said:

Yep.  It's too bad.

I guess some people may not like this, but what we needed at the time was a strong AD and President that could work through it with Kelvin.  He's a stubborn, very strong personality in person.  He is a very good coach.  And don't get me wrong, he screwed up.  But I think he could have got back on track with guidance.

A strong AD would have talked to him about the roster building.  We don't need or expect a team of choir boys, but we were going too far the other direction, including incoming dudes like Bud Mackey.  Kelvin had to get the team culture to a more reasonable spot.

Then there were those stupid texts and calls.  This is such a weak violation, though it was undeniably dumb as hell on Kelvin's part.  Maybe this makes me an ethics failure, but I would have been pragmatic -- tear up those records and ask Kelvin what the hell are you thinking doing this and somehow getting caught and not telling the AD you needed more calls/texts.  Read him the riot act.  

Do those two things... who knows what happens.  Maybe he still goes off the rails and it never works.

On one hand, I don't like "tearing up those records...", but seeing how others like UNC operated, I can see it.

Brand & Herbert, Greenspan and the next guy - we were doomed.

[str8baller]

3 minutes ago, pumpfake said:

I believe that was our Achilles heel,

Yea…because we had Crean as coach. Lol… 

 

Also, Cream went to 2 tournaments out of his last 4 years. The exact same as Woody. Where’s this narrative coming from that cream was making the tourney every year?
 

Crean couldn’t beat a zone. Woody couldn’t stop teams that could shoot 3’s. Why keep either??? I feel like I’m taking crazy pills reading this stuff.