They “Retired” Coach Woodson Thread

[IUrocker 2,490]

17 minutes ago, Hoozr said:

Long time reader, first time poster. I know it has been said that May has a clause in his contract that he could take IU job (and his buyout is low, relatively speaking). Say he is offered a big time job (U of L, OSU, etc), they would be unlikely to put a clause like that in there and his buyout would likely be enormous for the first few years. If we do move on from Woody after next year, that could be a non-starter for getting him here any time soon.


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Yep for sure, and I would surely think/hope that Dolson is fully aware of that scenario if May is someone he’s got in mind for the job, making the move sooner than later to prevent things like that from happening.  

[Chris007 62,616]

Just now, Stuhoo said:

I am not, repeat NOT the Mayor of Boca Raton, Florida. 

 

Is he a bad guy?

[NashvilleHoosier 3,906]

32 minutes ago, Ngw7183 said:

Even if IU drops one of them, FAU drops some IU won. It is a wash. They are slightly better at best and to think they could come in here and be anything but 5th/6th in Big is a stretch.

I can get behind him as a coach and would but if fans are living in this fantasy land that our guys would stay and he brings his team and off the races, yeah, that isn’t a reason at all for wanting him. 

I don't think it's very helpful or relevant to compare what this exact FAU team could do in the B1G and what this exact IU team would do with FAU's schedule. I would hope, if May were to come, that he doesn't just bring his exact roster along with him. Bring a few that are good enough, try to retain guys like Reneau, etc. But if you're telling me that May could take the exact same roster he was able to build at FAU, and it be the 5th or 6th best team in the B1G, even this year, then the moderate skepticism I've had is melting away fast. Sign me up yesterday. B/c he'll be able to build a much better roster at Indiana than at FAU.

[IUCrazy2 2,980]

The circle I am having an issue squaring is that we are basically looking at implementing a year 1 rebuild in year 4 for what will be a 66 year old coach.  Take everything that has happened up to this point and flush the majority of it from a stability standpoint because we are talking about losing Ware, Mgbako, Leal, Walker, Banks, Gunn, and Johnson.  That is 7 of your current 12 scholarship players.  One of the remaining 5 has had the type of injury he may never recover from and we haven't heard anything about his recovery in forever.  So Cupps, Galloway, Reneau, and Sparks are your most likely returning pieces next year and you have 1 incoming Freshman committed.  So we are talking potentially running to the portal or hoping for late decommits for 7 of our scholarships.

That is just personnel.  I think everyone believes we have to overhaul the offense and defense a bit over the summer as well.

That is a complete rebuild.  Keeping Woodson and staff around for year 4 is continuity in name only.  Everything about how this next offseason is shaping up is screaming "total rebuild".  Why should I trust that the guy who led us back to this point in 3 years is in any way, shape, or form equipped to rebuild it?  Furthermore, what is the likelihood of a total rebuild, year one, start over season to end up looking like something that will probably lead to him getting fired anyway?  We are starting over next year no matter who is in the head coaching spot.  

We have all seen this show before.  We will get a bunch of new faces in.  They won't have experience playing with each other.  The "culture" is 4 guys who will be outnumbered by the newcomers so the likelihood of whatever culture we have soaking in next year is next to zero.  What are the odds we are about 14-9 or 14-10 around this point next year talking about getting over humps and hoping our coach gets canned at the end of the year again?  Greater than 50% is my guess.

[Chris007 62,616]

3 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

The circle I am having an issue squaring is that we are basically looking at implementing a year 1 rebuild in year 4 for what will be a 66 year old coach.  Take everything that has happened up to this point and flush the majority of it from a stability standpoint because we are talking about losing Ware, Mgbako, Leal, Walker, Banks, Gunn, and Johnson.  That is 7 of your current 12 scholarship players.  One of the remaining 5 has had the type of injury he may never recover from and we haven't heard anything about his recovery in forever.  So Cupps, Galloway, Reneau, and Sparks are your most likely returning pieces next year and you have 1 incoming Freshman committed.  So we are talking potentially running to the portal or hoping for late decommits for 7 of our scholarships.

That is just personnel.  I think everyone believes we have to overhaul the offense and defense a bit over the summer as well.

That is a complete rebuild.  Keeping Woodson and staff around for year 4 is continuity in name only.  Everything about how this next offseason is shaping up is screaming "total rebuild".  Why should I trust that the guy who led us back to this point in 3 years is in any way, shape, or form equipped to rebuild it?  Furthermore, what is the likelihood of a total rebuild, year one, start over season to end up looking like something that will probably lead to him getting fired anyway?  We are starting over next year no matter who is in the head coaching spot.  

We have all seen this show before.  We will get a bunch of new faces in.  They won't have experience playing with each other.  The "culture" is 4 guys who will be outnumbered by the newcomers so the likelihood of whatever culture we have soaking in next year is next to zero.  What are the odds we are about 14-9 or 14-10 around this point next year talking about getting over humps and hoping our coach gets canned at the end of the year again?  Greater than 50% is my guess.

I will go ahead and let my buddy @Ngw7183 answer this one. :-)

[IUrocker 2,490]

1 minute ago, IUCrazy2 said:

The circle I am having an issue squaring is that we are basically looking at implementing a year 1 rebuild in year 4 for what will be a 66 year old coach.  Take everything that has happened up to this point and flush the majority of it from a stability standpoint because we are talking about losing Ware, Mgbako, Leal, Walker, Banks, Gunn, and Johnson.  That is 7 of your current 12 scholarship players.  One of the remaining 5 has had the type of injury he may never recover from and we haven't heard anything about his recovery in forever.  So Cupps, Galloway, Reneau, and Sparks are your most likely returning pieces next year and you have 1 incoming Freshman committed.  So we are talking potentially running to the portal or hoping for late decommits for 7 of our scholarships.

That is just personnel.  I think everyone believes we have to overhaul the offense and defense a bit over the summer as well.

That is a complete rebuild.  Keeping Woodson and staff around for year 4 is continuity in name only.  Everything about how this next offseason is shaping up is screaming "total rebuild".  Why should I trust that the guy who led us back to this point in 3 years is in any way, shape, or form equipped to rebuild it?  Furthermore, what is the likelihood of a total rebuild, year one, start over season to end up looking like something that will probably lead to him getting fired anyway?  We are starting over next year no matter who is in the head coaching spot.  

We have all seen this show before.  We will get a bunch of new faces in.  They won't have experience playing with each other.  The "culture" is 4 guys who will be outnumbered by the newcomers so the likelihood of whatever culture we have soaking in next year is next to zero.  What are the odds we are about 14-9 or 14-10 around this point next year talking about getting over humps and hoping our coach gets canned at the end of the year again?  Greater than 50% is my guess.

Great post, this is exactly how I feel about it. It’s gonna be a big time rebuild with a ton of new players next year anyways, so why not get the new coach in here now to do it himself with guys he wants instead of having Woodson and his staff do it and then we risk the season playing out the exact same way this one does. He’s gonna end up getting a handful of guards and then teach them how to throw it in the post…

[Golfman25 6,834]

50 minutes ago, Ngw7183 said:

You do realize it is 100% a factual statement. You can say guys are soft. Sure, I guess. But that is also flawed thinking in itself. 

Let’s say there were 10 high talent level guards as options in portal. They can go to IU where they compete for minutes or… get this, they can go to Baylor, Tenn, Arizona, Kansas, UNC, etc where they have a wide open hole for them to take. Oh and they are better programs over last 15 years. 
 

Then, I am a mid level talent. I can go and get bench minutes, hope I can beat those guys out or I can go to a solid program with a starter role. 

Every last guy from Trilly, Goodman, Ant Wright, Rob Cassidy etc all the guys who know recruits, portal, AAU guys etc. all said this is why guys didn’t come here. 

It's still pathetic.  I don't want a player on my team who is "afraid" to compete for minutes.  Those are the guys who fold in the championship game when it gets tough.  And I struggle to believe all those "names" actually knew anything.  It's all rumor and innuendo.  

[Unexpectedflash 1,759]

3 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

The circle I am having an issue squaring is that we are basically looking at implementing a year 1 rebuild in year 4 for what will be a 66 year old coach.  Take everything that has happened up to this point and flush the majority of it from a stability standpoint because we are talking about losing Ware, Mgbako, Leal, Walker, Banks, Gunn, and Johnson.  That is 7 of your current 12 scholarship players.  One of the remaining 5 has had the type of injury he may never recover from and we haven't heard anything about his recovery in forever.  So Cupps, Galloway, Reneau, and Sparks are your most likely returning pieces next year and you have 1 incoming Freshman committed.  So we are talking potentially running to the portal or hoping for late decommits for 7 of our scholarships.

That is just personnel.  I think everyone believes we have to overhaul the offense and defense a bit over the summer as well.

That is a complete rebuild.  Keeping Woodson and staff around for year 4 is continuity in name only.  Everything about how this next offseason is shaping up is screaming "total rebuild".  Why should I trust that the guy who led us back to this point in 3 years is in any way, shape, or form equipped to rebuild it?  Furthermore, what is the likelihood of a total rebuild, year one, start over season to end up looking like something that will probably lead to him getting fired anyway?  We are starting over next year no matter who is in the head coaching spot.  

We have all seen this show before.  We will get a bunch of new faces in.  They won't have experience playing with each other.  The "culture" is 4 guys who will be outnumbered by the newcomers so the likelihood of whatever culture we have soaking in next year is next to zero.  What are the odds we are about 14-9 or 14-10 around this point next year talking about getting over humps and hoping our coach gets canned at the end of the year again?  Greater than 50% is my guess.

I honestly don’t think we’d get more than a few transfers. I find it hard to believe we’d have an easier time attracting guards nexts year than we did this year after JHS was a first rounder. We are so easy to negatively recruit against now. All you have to do is show people our offense. A good year to me next year is like 20-12 and a first round loss. Are we really in a better spot after that than just letting the new coach start a year early.

[Golfman25 6,834]

23 minutes ago, JSHoosier said:

The staff looked at Galloway, a guy with one good shooting year, and Johnson, a guy who was very inconsistent before injuries, and were comfortable enough to leave a scholarship open. Unreal.

That's because all the D1 caliber guards in the portal where afraid to compete with a guy who had on good shooting year, and an injury prone inconsistent player.  Some scary dudes there man.  

[IUFootballHappyHappyJoyJoy 784]

Honestly, as a guy who bet on the wrong horse and follows IU football, I'm apathetic right now. Like, Woodson can recruit but can't develop talent, based on what I've seen. 

[rcbowla 8,281]

May can be the biggest basketball savant to ever live and still not succeed. The IU job is way more and way harder than just coaching X and Os. If it takes him 4 years to really get going which is very possible, he will have had the pressure turned up to 11 by then and could crack.
In a lot of areas in life, the smartest guy doesn’t succeed. 

Is the IU job way harder than x's and o's? I hear people say this a lot but I'm not sure it's true. What makes it so? If a guy comes in and wins 20+ every year, gets us to tourney every year and makes some runs isn't that all that matters. It isn't some political office or social media content creator job that requires thumbs up or votes.....it's basketball. Win, don't be a ****** and everything will be gravy.

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[BleedCubbieBlue 1,959]

10 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

The circle I am having an issue squaring is that we are basically looking at implementing a year 1 rebuild in year 4 for what will be a 66 year old coach.  Take everything that has happened up to this point and flush the majority of it from a stability standpoint because we are talking about losing Ware, Mgbako, Leal, Walker, Banks, Gunn, and Johnson.  That is 7 of your current 12 scholarship players.  One of the remaining 5 has had the type of injury he may never recover from and we haven't heard anything about his recovery in forever.  So Cupps, Galloway, Reneau, and Sparks are your most likely returning pieces next year and you have 1 incoming Freshman committed.  So we are talking potentially running to the portal or hoping for late decommits for 7 of our scholarships.

That is just personnel.  I think everyone believes we have to overhaul the offense and defense a bit over the summer as well.

That is a complete rebuild.  Keeping Woodson and staff around for year 4 is continuity in name only.  Everything about how this next offseason is shaping up is screaming "total rebuild".  Why should I trust that the guy who led us back to this point in 3 years is in any way, shape, or form equipped to rebuild it?  Furthermore, what is the likelihood of a total rebuild, year one, start over season to end up looking like something that will probably lead to him getting fired anyway?  We are starting over next year no matter who is in the head coaching spot.  

We have all seen this show before.  We will get a bunch of new faces in.  They won't have experience playing with each other.  The "culture" is 4 guys who will be outnumbered by the newcomers so the likelihood of whatever culture we have soaking in next year is next to zero.  What are the odds we are about 14-9 or 14-10 around this point next year talking about getting over humps and hoping our coach gets canned at the end of the year again?  Greater than 50% is my guess.

I agree. I would argue that we actually have a better chance of rebuilding through the portal with a new coach that actually plays a modern style of basketball than we do bringing back Lobby McPosterson.

[southernindianahoosier2 1,056]

1 hour ago, ISP said:

Mid-majors that have made the Final 4 in the past 40 years. I would argue that of all these programs and their prior success, May's may be the most worthy. 

San Diego State (Brian Dutcher )

FAU (Dusty May)

Gonzaga (Mark Few)

Butler (Brad Stevens)

VCU (Shaka Smart)

George Mason (Jim Larranaga) 

Loyola-Chicago (Porter Moser)

Wichita State (Gregg Marshall)

Utah (Rick Majeris)

UMass (John Calipari)

UNLV (Jerry Tarkanian)

Memphis State (Dana Kirk) (happened to have Penny Hardaway)

Interesting that most of these coaches end up coaching in multiple final fours... and when elevated to a larger program, like Cal with UK, they take off..

Shaka is a unique one, because it seems more like his FF run might be more due to a zero day exploit (think fosbury flop) with his Havoc defense.

[IUCrazy2 2,980]

5 minutes ago, Unexpectedflash said:

I honestly don’t think we’d get more than a few transfers. I find it hard to believe we’d have an easier time attracting guards nexts year than we did this year after JHS was a first rounder. We are so easy to negatively recruit against now. All you have to do is show people our offense. A good year to me next year is like 20-12 and a first round loss. Are we really in a better spot after that than just letting the new coach start a year early.

I mean anything is possible I suppose but 20-12 sounds like a long shot if everything happens like people are saying right now.

You can't build stability going to the transfer portal as often as we do.  How many instances are there of coaches grabbing that many portal players and being successful where they aren't doing that to start a tenure?  The portal is most effective in jump starting a new staff or filling in a piece here or there.  If you are consistently pulling major pieces of your team out of the portal, you are going to struggle.

[AZ Hoosier 11,059]

28 minutes ago, JSHoosier said:

The staff looked at Galloway, a guy with one good shooting year, and Johnson, a guy who was very inconsistent before injuries, and were comfortable enough to leave a scholarship open. Unreal.

Don't forget Johnson's history of off-court antics... he was a ticking time bomb... and despite that and his and Gallo's inconsistencies, Woodson chose to stand pat. He gets what he gets because he chose it... time to make him accountable.

[Chris007 62,616]

One thing we need to remember is we are a top-ten team in NIL money. I don't know if things will get better or worse if Woodson is gone but say it gets worse we will still be top 15. So even if some current players want to leave, their not going get the money they're going to get by staying here. Plus we are still going to get transfers because we can pay more than others plus kids still want to play at IU. So matter what happens we will be fine. 

[southernindianahoosier2 1,056]

27 minutes ago, Chris007 said:

First off great post, and that is something I worry about. He's going to get offers from UM, OSU, UL.WV. One of those schools is going to try to get him. Now hopefully he is happy in Florida and is waiting for IU. His family says he loves it down there. How could you not? When you have a mayor like @Stuhoo running things you have it good. He's not going to move twice in two years. Also if he waits on the IU job, and has a crappy year next year might not get a shot at it again for a while. 

I wasn't on the boards in 2011... Was there a similar sentiment / argument around letting Crean go after year 3 to go after Brad Stevens?

[Chris007 62,616]

Just now, southernindianahoosier2 said:

I wasn't on the boards in 2011... Was there a similar sentiment / argument around letting Crean go after year 3 to go after Brad Stevens?

I wasn't on BTB then but I was on Peegs. And there was that sentiment but it was from a small minority over there. But sometimes the small minority has the loudest voices, especially over time when they have been proven right. 

[spe317 1,015]

1 minute ago, Chris007 said:

One thing we need to remember is we are a top-ten team in NIL money. I don't know if things will get better or worse if Woodson is gone but say it gets worse we will still be top 15. So even if some current players want to leave, their not going get the money they're going to get by staying here. Plus we are still going to get transfers because we can pay more than others plus kids still want to play at IU. So matter what happens we will be fine. 

I hate the idea of having players on the team that want to play somewhere else/another way/another system that only stick around for the payday. Really disappointing. 

[IUCrazy2 2,980]

Just now, Chris007 said:

One thing we need to remember is we are a top-ten team in NIL money. I don't know if things will get better or worse if Woodson is gone but say it gets worse we will still be top 15. So even if some current players want to leave, their not going get the money they're going to get by staying here. Plus we are still going to get transfers because we can pay more than others plus kids still want to play at IU. So matter what happens we will be fine. 

With a new coach I can buy that.  With Woodson I don't.  We had that NIL money and some questionable guards and he couldn't convince even one guy to come here out of the portal.  Also, I don't want NIL to be the main/only reason guys are coming here.  I think that a team of mercenaries doesn't play well for program stability either.  I want guys who have an interest in being here first with NIL maybe helping tip the balance.