Intangibles

[Demo 19,853]

https://mobile.twitter.com/MarchMadnessMBB/status/1505402554137681921
 

Can’t get this to embed for some reason, but just leaving it here without comment.

[HoosierAloha 30,068]

16 minutes ago, Demo said:

https://mobile.twitter.com/MarchMadnessMBB/status/1505402554137681921
 

Can’t get this to embed for some reason, but just leaving it here without comment.

 

[HoosierAloha 30,068]

18 minutes ago, Demo said:

 

Can’t get this to embed for some reason, but just leaving it here without comment.

I saw that last night and immediately felt we were pretty close to the opposite. The image of us trying to get the ball to Trayce in the second half of the Wiscy game and then just chucking it or throwing it into the stands when it got a little difficult came to mind.

We need toughness is a bad way. Not the kind of toughness you try to fight MSU or Wiscy players because they're better than you. The kind that you're going to grind because you got punked in your tourney game. The kind that when it starts to get a little difficult you start to shine. The kind that you've been through enough s*** that games are a welcome change.

I do believe we have some really nice people that play on the team.

[Josh 12,621]

9 hours ago, HoosierAloha said:

So one player 10 years ago? Who else?

We had a few during the Crean era. Vic, Yogi, Juwan, OG...Crean was good at player development.  It's been a long time, but Dane Fife was one of the biggest jumps ever from 24% to 47%.  Xavier Johnson had quite a leap this season also from start to finish.  

We just didn't see any development under Archie which allows for the big gap since we've seen it.  

[HoosierAloha 30,068]

9 hours ago, IU - Kaulie said:

We have to recruit kids that love basketball.  We need kids that are willing to put in the work and put the time in to get better.  Those kids are not hard to find.  Stars are nice but they don’t mean everything.  I think we have at least two on the roster and those kids are the ones that need to use their voices to lead and challenge their teammates to put in the work with them.  We can’t have our biggest voice talk multiple times about fixing the holes in his game but their be no evidence that it’s being developed.  
 

This is a different staff so we will see what happens during the off-season.  It seems like over the past several seasons their have been small improvements skill wise with our players.  Their have been more noticeable physical/athletic improvements but not basketball skill development.  I’m tired of seeing or hearing about players from other teams that have taken a big jump in their development. When is the last time we have had that?

 

There is so much good stuff in here. It would be interesting to know how much some of our players truly love basketball. That's not a knock on them, you can be good at something and expected to play but not really be all in. I do hope your boy steps up this off-season to improve his game and to push the returners to get better. Agreed on that last point too and it's been obvious.

We'll get to see with Woody here for his first (?) off-season. There is plenty of room for returning players to grow. Let's see how they develop.

[Uspshoosier 45,608]

9 minutes ago, HoosierAloha said:

There is so much good stuff in here. It would be interesting to know how much some of our players truly love basketball. That's not a knock on them, you can be good at something and expected to play but not really be all in. I do hope your boy steps up this off-season to improve his game and to push the returners to get better. Agreed on that last point too and it's been obvious.

We'll get to see with Woody here for his first (?) off-season. There is plenty of room for returning players to grow. Let's see how they develop.

 

[Stuhoo 80,504]

25 minutes ago, HoosierAloha said:

 

Zach Edey: “Let’s see if your New York guys can ‘out-tall’ me.”

[HoosierHoopster 6,961]

9 hours ago, HoosierAloha said:

So one player 10 years ago? Who else?

Franklin and Al finished their careers here at 43% and 38% respectively, that was just last year.

That's actually impressive for them, because, clearly, CAM  was not a development coach (for all his faults, Crean was). Of course we didn't show much individual improvement under CAM, that's kind of obvious. Glad those years are behind us.

But we're getting off target if you really do want to talk intangibles instead of just kavitching about individual shooting improvement while ignoring the guys who did show improvement.

Intangibles to me are right there in Geronimo, Bates and Galloway. Guys who come in as two-way players, who are not just talented from a recruiting/ranking perspective but have that fight and edge to go with work ethic. And Geronimo and Galloway both have already shown significant improvement in their games. Bates was a frosh, he was up and down, but man if you can't see the intangibles he brings I don't know what to tell you, kid is going to be really good, both individually and as a team player.

We need shooting and athleticism on the wing, that's not an intangible, but bring it with that type of player with grit, tenacity, drive and work ethic and you have a winning program. I said 'easy' and went back to Vic because he (along with OG, who also obviously improved individually) is a great example of how a player who has all the intangibles coming in can and will grow his game on work ethic and drive -- with player development, and will help the team win.

Woodson hasn't even had 1 year of his own recruits on the floor -- but he did land Bates and that's a great start.

Now we have, at least, JHS coming in. That dude is a physical, tough guard who brings it in multiple ways. Also a great start.

 

[Demo 19,853]

4 minutes ago, HoosierAloha said:

We need toughness is a bad way. Not the kind of toughness you try to fight MSU or Wiscy players because they're better than you. The kind that you're going to grind because you got punked in your tourney game. The kind that when it starts to get a little difficult you start to shine. The kind that you've been through enough s*** that games are a welcome change.

I do believe we have some really nice people that play on the team.

Don’t usually like getting into the toughness thing much because it tends to devolve into tough vs soft like it’s a binary deal, and that’s just flat wrong. I’ve been around probably a few thousand D-1 players and never met a soft one. Dakich is full of crap when he throws that word around. BUT, there is a certain relentlessness that’s just locked in to some kid’s DNA that’s unusual and that kid brings everybody with them. IU hasn’t had that kid since Ferrell. Race and Trayce are good kids and can be winning players, but they’re not that kid. What Timme did last night, he drug that team forward. Talent can mitigate that sort of thing to some degree. UNC’s playing next week and they have obvious on court leadership problems. But with IU’s current level of talent, and I fully expect it to be better next year, you gotta be relentless, What Providence has done is amazing. They’re a model for how to compete for where IU is right now, even though IU should certainly surpass them as a program.

[HoosierAloha 30,068]

2 hours ago, brumdog45 said:

Durham.  Don’t know what happened to his stroke at providence this year but he went 29/34/38/38 with increasing volume.  Not a sharpshooter but most definitely a guy who turned into someone you had to defend on the perimeter.

Armaan Franklin went from 27% to 42% with increased volume.  Again don’t know what happened to his stroke after he left.

Good call on Franklin! I would have taken a few more players shooting in that 38% range this past season.

[HoosierAloha 30,068]

9 minutes ago, Uspshoosier said:

 

USPS bringing the gif game. I was hoping more for a Bill Walton good stuff gif though!

[MikeRoberts 6,998]

We need to recruit “dogs” and “winners”

find those guys that live in the gym and will play their hearts out everytime they step on the court and get those guys from winning programs, players that know how to win and expect to win every time.

[Stuhoo 80,504]

12 minutes ago, Demo said:

Don’t usually like getting into the toughness thing much because it tends to devolve into tough vs soft like it’s a binary deal, and that’s just flat wrong. I’ve been around probably a few thousand D-1 players and never met a soft one. Dakich is full of crap when he throws that word around. BUT, there is a certain relentlessness that’s just locked in to some kid’s DNA that’s unusual and that kid brings everybody with them. IU hasn’t had that kid since Ferrell. Race and Trayce are good kids and can be winning players, but they’re not that kid. What Timme did last night, he drug that team forward. Talent can mitigate that sort of thing to some degree. UNC’s playing next week and they have obvious on court leadership problems. But with IU’s current level of talent, and I fully expect it to be better next year, you gotta be relentless, What Providence has done is amazing. They’re a model for how to compete for where IU is right now, even though IU should certainly surpass them as a program.

Which raises a different theory on the background that it takes to get a kid who is intangibly outstanding.

Maybe there’s something to do with it when a player has to regularly deal with the entire opposition being thrown at him.? If that’s the case, we don’t have too many of those on our current roster. Banks would certainly qualify as one of those.

[HoosierAloha 30,068]

3 minutes ago, Demo said:

Don’t usually like getting into the toughness thing much because it tends to devolve into tough vs soft like it’s a binary deal, and that’s just flat wrong. I’ve been around probably a few thousand D-1 players and never met a soft one. Dakich is full of crap when he throws that word around. BUT, there is a certain relentlessness that’s just locked in to some kid’s DNA that’s unusual and that kid brings everybody with them. IU hasn’t had that kid since Ferrell. Race and Trayce are good kids and can be winning players, but they’re not that kid. What Timme did last night, he drug that team forward. Talent can mitigate that sort of thing to some degree. UNC’s playing next week and they have obvious on court leadership problems. But with IU’s current level of talent, and I fully expect it to be better next year, you gotta be relentless, What Providence has done is amazing. They’re a model for how to compete for where IU is right now, even though IU should certainly surpass them as a program.

Absolutely, there are few things that are truly binary with most being plenty of shades of gray. I have little doubt even the "soft" players are on a completely different level than your average college student. The ones I've been around and worked with definitely fit that mold. Completely agree with the DNA, it's not limited to a particular sport or type of sport either. There is a type of personality that typically fits that and I'd love to get more of that. I'd like to be that team that other coaches and teams know they're going to have to have to fight for 40 minutes. I didn't feel like we wore on teams physically or mentally this season and were often on the receiving end of that.

I'd argue it took Ferrell a few years to figure it out at the college level before he really got to that leadership level. There were reasons for it his freshman year. I absolutely loved seeing Ferrell and Bryant going at it in Maui. They cared, they weren't afraid of a little healthy conflict, and they got better. I can't recall how many times this happened in my previous career and we all moved on and became better for it.

I love Trayce as a player. He has more ability than the majority of D1 players and I'm sure he's tougher than the majority of people his age. There is more there. He looks for acceptance from his peers, coaching staff, and those around him. The difference between his demeanor and X are completely different. I think there is something there with X that could lift up those around him.

I'd like to see IU become that psu, Texas, Texas Tech, West Virginia, etc. level of relentless. Yes, they're going to miss shots, make some dumb plays, but they're going to pester you and let you know they're going to be there for 40 minutes. We've lacked that for far too long. That is where we need to be as a program while also bringing in better talent.

[HoosierAloha 30,068]

10 minutes ago, MikeRoberts said:

We need to recruit “dogs” and “winners”

find those guys that live in the gym and will play their hearts out everytime they step on the court and get those guys from winning programs, players that know how to win and expect to win every time.

I didn't know if we were allowed to use this term again, but, yes, this is what we need. Players that compete at everything. Players that are pissed when a teammate beats them at anything and everything. We had nice players this year that I'm sure would hold the door for others and help walk the elderly across the road. That's great and I want them representing our program and university. I'd also like them to compete with their teammates at a high level and everyone gets better at the end of the day.

[HoosierAloha 30,068]

48 minutes ago, Josh said:

We had a few during the Crean era. Vic, Yogi, Juwan, OG...Crean was good at player development.  It's been a long time, but Dane Fife was one of the biggest jumps ever from 24% to 47%.  Xavier Johnson had quite a leap this season also from start to finish.  

We just didn't see any development under Archie which allows for the big gap since we've seen it.  

 

29 minutes ago, HoosierHoopster said:

Franklin and Al finished their careers here at 43% and 38% respectively, that was just last year.

That's actually impressive for them, because, clearly, CAM  was not a development coach (for all his faults, Crean was). Of course we didn't show much individual improvement under CAM, that's kind of obvious. Glad those years are behind us.

But we're getting off target if you really do want to talk intangibles instead of just kavitching about individual shooting improvement while ignoring the guys who did show improvement.

Intangibles to me are right there in Geronimo, Bates and Galloway. Gus who come in as two-way players, who are not just talented from a recruiting/ranking perspective but have that fight and edge to go with work ethic. And Geronimo and Galloway both have already shown significant improvement in their games. Bates was a frosh, he was up and down, but man if you can't see the intangibles he brings I don't know what to tell you, kid is going to be really good, both individually and as a team player.

We need shooting and athleticism on the wing, that's not an intangible, but bring it with that type of player with grit, tenacity, drive and work ethic and you have a winning program. I said 'easy' and went back to Vic because he (along with OG, who also obviously improved individually) is a great example of how a player who has all the intangibles coming in can and will grow his game on work ethic and drive -- with player development, and will help the team win.

Woodson hasn't even had 1 year of his own recruits on the floor -- but he did land Bates and that's a great start.

Now we have, at least, JHS coming in. That dude is a physical, tough guard who brings it in multiple ways. Also a great start.

 

You raise some good points. An intangible only player will only go so far but they can be that 10-13 type player that pushes the starters and creates that environment and culture for the program.

I love Geronimo and Gallo and think they can be important pieces on winning team. I haven't ignored them. It's part playing time and part not being fully developed. Gallo plays angles like nobody else on this team. Once opposition started sagging off it limited his impact and effectiveness. Geronimo can be an all Big 1.o type player. He has the potential and showed some of that production this season. He still needs to keep working.

My point was we can point to a few of those players but they're more the exception than the rule. We need it to become a rule in our program to lift us to the next level.

[Demo 19,853]

20 minutes ago, Stuhoo said:

Which raises a different theory on the background that it takes to get a kid who is intangibly outstanding.

Maybe there’s something to do with it when a player has to regularly deal with the entire opposition being thrown at him.? If that’s the case, we don’t have too many of those on our current roster. Banks would certainly qualify as one of those.

Probably part of it for sure, though in Banks’ case, when you watch him play, he very much looks like a kid who needs to be led. Good kid. Talented kid. But not super interactive with his teammates. I think some kids are just wired to find any little thing and use it as fuel. Ferrell was 5’10”. Timme was a slow, white dude who couldn’t play at that level. Whatever it might be.  I watched a kid the other night named Elijah Mahi. No need to remember his name, probably a mid-major type. But I watched a 45 min combine session and that kid never shut up, never stopped communicating and directing, was in somebody’s ear every minute and competed his a$$ off. At a COMBINE. That kid just had a psychic need to win. It was a hell of a show. 

[Stuhoo 80,504]

56 minutes ago, HoosierAloha said:

I didn't know if we were allowed to use this term again, but, yes, this is what we need. Players that compete at everything. Players that are pissed when a teammate beats them at anything and everything. We had nice players this year that I'm sure would hold the door for others and help walk the elderly across the road. That's great and I want them representing our program and university. I'd also like them to compete with their teammates at a high level and everyone gets better at the end of the day.

Gallo is perfect for this—never talks to the refs, and Jaden Ivey gave Trey Galloway an unsolicited two handed shove just because he was Trey Galloway. That’s when I knew Gallo was my favorite current IU player.

1,000 jump shots a day for Gallo and we have a three year starter with winning intangibles.

[WayneFleekHoosier 48,298]

Gallo is perfect for this—never talks to the refs, and Jaden Ivey gave Trey Galloway an unsolicited two handed shove just because he was Trey Galloway. That’s when I knew Gallo was my favorite current IU player.
1,000 jump shots a day for Gallo and we have a three year starter with winning intangibles.

That form though. Can repetitions power through it? It really is a shame because he could be a really nice option if it was fixable.


Sent from my iPad using BtownBanners mobile app

[Stuhoo 80,504]

11 minutes ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:

That form though. Can repetitions power through it? It really is a shame because he could be a really nice option if it was fixable.


Sent from my iPad using BtownBanners mobile app

An adjustment of form needs a zillion repetitions to install