Our Upperclassmen’s Regression and a Case for Playing our 2020 Kids More

[Hoosier Guy]

2 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said:

Exactly a down year should still include a tourney bid. 

Absolutely

[Hoosier Guy]

2 minutes ago, Treesh said:

Honestly it’s just national championships. Conference championships are steak dinners at Red Lobster, we want the steak dinner at St Elmos. 

I want both. IU should too

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich]

41 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said:

The pumpers don’t appear to. The goalposts seem to keep moving. In year 2 we were ranked and killing it on the recruiting trail. Archie had a 12-9 conference record. 
 

Since then we aren’t ranked, are far from it in fact. Not doing well on recruiting trail and despite what we hoped. It is not because PT would be hard to come by.  And in addition Archie has a 14-25 big ten record.  

We are going in the wrong direction.  And nobody has even tried to make a realistic case for why year 5 will be different. 
 

First Archie needed Romeo. Then he needed his players to get older. Then we needed Phin and Hunter to get healthy.  And now just like with Crean people are blaming the players for this year.  
 

The pumpers expectations are always caveated with an excuse for why they aren’t achieved. 

You can't forget that we need a shooter. 

[HoosierAloha]

42 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said:

The pumpers don’t appear to. The goalposts seem to keep moving. In year 2 we were ranked and killing it on the recruiting trail. Archie had a 12-9 conference record. 
 

Since then we aren’t ranked, are far from it in fact. Not doing well on recruiting trail and despite what we hoped. It is not because PT would be hard to come by.  And in addition Archie has a 14-25 big ten record.  

We are going in the wrong direction.  And nobody has even tried to make a realistic case for why year 5 will be different. 
 

First Archie needed Romeo. Then he needed his players to get older. Then we needed Phin and Hunter to get healthy.  And now just like with Crean people are blaming the players for this year.  
 

The pumpers expectations are always caveated with an excuse for why they aren’t achieved. 

This doesn't compute to me. 

I have expectations for this program and would be considered a "pumper" because I don't post negatively about the coach, program, or players.  However, I believe there are a few reasons for that which I won't get into because it wouldn't be popular in this thread.

My expectations for a traditional blue-blood program like IU is consistent top 4 finishes in the conference.  Consistent can be defined as four or five years with the other year being top half.  For a healthy program that isn't unrealistic and that one year is accounting for the random bad luck of injuries, young inexperienced team, or thing simply not clicking.  Further, we need to consistently be winning in the Big Ten Tourney.  That doesn't mean winning it all but having a winning record for a coach and consistently being in the semis and finals.  A tourney championship here and there would be nice but I don't put as much stock in the conference tourney.  We need to consistently be in the NCAA tourney, consistent here is EVERY FREAKING YEAR sans that 1 in 10 that just goes astray.  The tourney is a crap shoot with matchups and teams getting hot.  However, we need to be a consistent Sweet 16 team that breaks through and has a run past the Sweet 16 every 3/4 years.  Again, matchups and your team peaking plays a big part in this.

My stance as a "sunshine pumper" is who I am by nature and training.  I'm an optimistic person who tries to see the best in people and situations.  I'm a "hope for the best while preparing for the worst" type of person.  I had a boss early on in my career who said he didn't want to hear about problems unless I had a solution attached to it.  I don't see anything positive with me constantly posting negativity on this board besides annoying people.  The conversations I have with people in DMs and in person are a lot different than what I post on here.  However, that goes along with strategy in both X's and O's and Jimmy and Joe's. 

[Golfman25]

1 hour ago, Hoosier Guy said:

The expectations for IU shouldn’t be anything but competing for conference championships and national championships every season. No excuses

That's pretty high expectations.  Even the best programs aren't national championship competitive every year.  But as I have said before, the model is easy:

1) control the Big 10 -- conference championships and nothing worse the 4th.  That equals a tourney bid every year.

2) Win the first weekend of the tourney.  That get's you to the sweet 16.  

3)  Break thru to the 8, 4 and Championship game.  This is a numbers game.  The more you are in the sweet 16, the more chances you have to break thru.  

Now just go get the Coaches and Players who can do it.  

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich]

1 minute ago, Golfman25 said:

That's pretty high expectations.  Even the best programs aren't national championship competitive every year.  But as I have said before, the model is easy:

1) control the Big 10 -- conference championships and nothing worse the 4th.  That equals a tourney bid every year.

2) Win the first weekend of the tourney.  That get's you to the sweet 16.  

3)  Break thru to the 8, 4 and Championship game.  This is a numbers game.  The more you are in the sweet 16, the more chances you have to break thru.  

Now just go get the Coaches and Players who can do it.  

They are high expectations. But that's okay. For me personally

- Top 25 every year

- Top 6 in the Big Ten

- Make the NCAA Tourney(Upsets happen to everyone so that's just luck of the draw).

- Get back into being something the media wants to cover and for good reasons.

- Play good basketball. 

[Stuhoo]

12 minutes ago, Golfman25 said:

That's pretty high expectations.  Even the best programs aren't national championship competitive every year.  But as I have said before, the model is easy:

1) control the Big 10 -- conference championships and nothing worse the 4th.  That equals a tourney bid every year.

2) Win the first weekend of the tourney.  That get's you to the sweet 16.  

3)  Break thru to the 8, 4 and Championship game.  This is a numbers game.  The more you are in the sweet 16, the more chances you have to break thru.  

Now just go get the Coaches and Players who can do it.  

Not sure that the folks that have divided this board into arbitrary “pumpers” and “dumpers” categories would consider me and Golfman25 in the same group, but

... the expectations described by him above are spot-on where I want IUBB to be (though I would say, given how very difficult the B1G is, top half of the conference every year would accomplish all the other criteria).

 

[Stuhoo]

11 minutes ago, Loaded Chicken Sandwich said:

They are high expectations. But that's okay. For me personally

- Top 25 every year

- Top 6 in the Big Ten

- Make the NCAA Tourney(Upsets happen to everyone so that's just luck of the draw).

- Get back into being something the media wants to cover and for good reasons.

- Play good basketball. 

^^This list of expectations is pretty much spot-on for me too.^^

 

[LamarCheeks]

16 minutes ago, Loaded Chicken Sandwich said:

They are high expectations. But that's okay. For me personally

- Top 25 every year

- Top 6 in the Big Ten

- Make the NCAA Tourney(Upsets happen to everyone so that's just luck of the draw).

- Get back into being something the media wants to cover and for good reasons.

- Play good basketball. 

I'm down with this, too. But I'll add one ... 

BTHO PURDUE!!!

[WayneFleekHoosier]

14 minutes ago, Loaded Chicken Sandwich said:

They are high expectations. But that's okay. For me personally

- Top 25 every year

- Top 6 in the Big Ten

- Make the NCAA Tourney(Upsets happen to everyone so that's just luck of the draw).

- Get back into being something the media wants to cover and for good reasons.

- Play good basketball. 

This is me.

Except I expect top 4ish in B1G.  Granted the B1G is the deepest it has ever been so top 6 currently is more reasonable.  

I don't think my expectations are unreasonable.   That is why I'm perpetually frustrated by IUBB, and to top it off, we often 'look' bad winning and losing.  

[Stuhoo]

9 minutes ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:

This is me.

Except I expect top 4ish in B1G.  Granted the B1G is the deepest it has ever been so top 6 currently is more reasonable.  

I don't think my expectations are unreasonable.   That is why I'm perpetually frustrated by IUBB, and to top it off, we often 'look' bad winning and losing.  

To me? We never look bad when we win.

A close win against a bad team means that we had an inevitable “not our best” game, and still found a way to get the W. That is what good teams do. For instance, the 1976 Hoosiers had a two point nail biter win against 6-20 Ohio State. Played terribly that day, but found a way to win anyway.

 

[Hoosier Guy]

27 minutes ago, Golfman25 said:

That's pretty high expectations.  Even the best programs aren't national championship competitive every year.  But as I have said before, the model is easy:

1) control the Big 10 -- conference championships and nothing worse the 4th.  That equals a tourney bid every year.

2) Win the first weekend of the tourney.  That get's you to the sweet 16.  

3)  Break thru to the 8, 4 and Championship game.  This is a numbers game.  The more you are in the sweet 16, the more chances you have to break thru.  

Now just go get the Coaches and Players who can do it.  

Top 4 in the B1G is competing for conference championships every season. That should be a formality. Sweet 16 should also be a formality. IU does that and they’re in the conversation every season. Exactly what I outlined

[WayneFleekHoosier]

Just now, Stuhoo said:

To me? We pretty much never look bad for when winning.

A close win against a bad team means that we had an inevitable “not our best” game, and still found a way to get the W. That is what good teams do.

 

I understand that and respect that.  A win is a win. But the eye test is a good future prognosticator, and we rarely look good even when winning.  Mostly that's an offense/defense thing.  We often look solid on defense but we virtually always look bad on offense.  Archie needs to let these boys get out in transition.  The easiest buckets in the game.  

[Stuhoo]

4 minutes ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:

I understand that and respect that.  A win is a win. But the eye test is a good future prognosticator, and we rarely look good even when winning.  Mostly that's an offense/defense thing.  We often look solid on defense but we virtually always look bad on offense.  Archie needs to let these boys get out in transition.  The easiest buckets in the game.  

I think it’s semantics and we’re saying the same thing.

If the current Tom Allen program plays like crap but wins against a Maryland/Illinois/Purdue level squad we’d be fine with it because his system has built up complete credibility. In basketball when we “win ugly” everyone assumes we’re about to go a losing streak. And that reaction is not good.

Also, if any of us is waiting for Al, Rob, or Jerome to “get out in transition“ effectively at this point? That’s delusional; that’s simply not who they are, even when they are playing very well.

 

[WayneFleekHoosier]

2 hours ago, Stuhoo said:

I think it’s semantics and we’re saying the same thing.

If the current Tom Allen program plays like crap but wins against a Maryland/Illinois/Purdue level squad we’d be fine with it because his system has built up complete credibility. In basketball when we “win ugly” everyone assumes we’re about to go a losing streak. And that reaction is not good.

Also, if any of us is waiting for Al, Rob, or Jerome to “get out in transition“ effectively at this point? That’s delusional; that’s simply not who they are, even when they are playing very well.

 

And the bottom paragraph is a big part of our offensive problems, coupled with Archie’s half court system.  That’s the only reason why I think Lander needs more PT and the right personnel.  I love when teams push the pace. 

[coonhounds]

Franklin has improved and race have improved dramatically. I have a feeling it is guys not putting in the work when not at practice or lifting. I am just guessing but alot of people on here were down about us getting Franklin but he looks to be great now. Probably from working on his shot. No excuse for rob and al to not be dynamite shooters at this point from where they started. I cant even begin with hunter he had a major medical set back so his play is expected to suffer but why does archie talk about how great he is at shooting but it hasn't translated to games.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich]

2 hours ago, Stuhoo said:

To me? We never look bad when we win.

A close win against a bad team means that we had an inevitable “not our best” game, and still found a way to get the W. That is what good teams do. For instance, the 1976 Hoosiers had a two point nail biter win against 6-20 Ohio State. Played terribly that day, but found a way to win anyway.

 

But were they still playing good basketball that day? Offensively were they still doing their normal but it just wasn't going in that day? Because you can still play good basketball and it just not be your day for the ball to go in. No excuse to play such ugly ball like we do unless it's on purpose. 

[Josh]

3 hours ago, HoosierAloha said:

This doesn't compute to me. 

I have expectations for this program and would be considered a "pumper" because I don't post negatively about the coach, program, or players.  However, I believe there are a few reasons for that which I won't get into because it wouldn't be popular in this thread.

My expectations for a traditional blue-blood program like IU is consistent top 4 finishes in the conference.  Consistent can be defined as four or five years with the other year being top half.  For a healthy program that isn't unrealistic and that one year is accounting for the random bad luck of injuries, young inexperienced team, or thing simply not clicking.  Further, we need to consistently be winning in the Big Ten Tourney.  That doesn't mean winning it all but having a winning record for a coach and consistently being in the semis and finals.  A tourney championship here and there would be nice but I don't put as much stock in the conference tourney.  We need to consistently be in the NCAA tourney, consistent here is EVERY FREAKING YEAR sans that 1 in 10 that just goes astray.  The tourney is a crap shoot with matchups and teams getting hot.  However, we need to be a consistent Sweet 16 team that breaks through and has a run past the Sweet 16 every 3/4 years.  Again, matchups and your team peaking plays a big part in this.

My stance as a "sunshine pumper" is who I am by nature and training.  I'm an optimistic person who tries to see the best in people and situations.  I'm a "hope for the best while preparing for the worst" type of person.  I had a boss early on in my career who said he didn't want to hear about problems unless I had a solution attached to it.  I don't see anything positive with me constantly posting negativity on this board besides annoying people.  The conversations I have with people in DMs and in person are a lot different than what I post on here.  However, that goes along with strategy in both X's and O's and Jimmy and Joe's. 

All of this makes sense.  I've always been a proponent of not bringing up problems unless you have a solution.  That's why i do have one.  But it drives some people crazy to hear the solution.  Not talking about the problem doesn't make it go away.  It's important to hold people accountable if you want to achieve success.

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich]

2 hours ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:

I understand that and respect that.  A win is a win. But the eye test is a good future prognosticator, and we rarely look good even when winning.  Mostly that's an offense/defense thing.  We often look solid on defense but we virtually always look bad on offense.  Archie needs to let these boys get out in transition.  The easiest buckets in the game.  

That's one of the things that perplexes me. Archie wants to get out and run(so he says) but doesn't want his guys out playing the passing lanes. Those two don't mix whatsoever. Either you play like Virginia/Wisconsin and play it super slow or you play like Louisville under Pitino and play the passing lanes and try and get out and run from steals. You really can't mix the two. I'd really like to see our guys play the lanes more than they do because this offense really needs those east buckets and some exciting dunks to get the juices of the guys and fans going.  

[Josh]

2 hours ago, Stuhoo said:

To me? We never look bad when we win.

 

Even if the win includes one of our recurring 10 minute scoring droughts?