Ed Schilling Leaving, Mike Roberts Arriving

[Old Friend 8,389]

7 hours ago, mdn82 said:

Someone that is a very strong recruiter and can be a net positive on guard development. Bruiser is doing a decent job with the bigs. I personally don’t care where they are from as long as they can assist in those two areas and help instill a consistency in effort and execution. That’s what I hope for.


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I think that's fair.  I differ a little because I think so much has already been tried away from someone who truly understands Indiana.  If we are truly a unique and special program, in my kind, we can't limit all of our assistant coaches to basketball stuff.   They all know basketball stuff.   I differ w you on Flint.  I think he's worthless.  We have had a few worthless coaches over the years.   I'm of the mindset that culture is important and Indiana needs to hire someone who has a detailed and experienced understanding of and ability to sell it.  I really couldn't care less about "national recruiting ties."    In all honesty....other than Oladipo, in the last 15 years, who are the truly difference.making recruits from outside a 4-5 hour drive of Bloomington's campus?  A one and done like Vonleh or Bryant don't really count in my opinion.

[Old Friend 8,389]

7 minutes ago, mdn82 said:

Most kids have no clue who Calbert Cheaney is. In the last 30 years we have had Dan Dakich on our staff. We have had IU guys. The problem is your last sentence. The strong majority of kids will end up with the brand their grassroots team is with. You need someone that can navigate those waters. I love Calbert but he is not that guy.


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I am most definitely in the minority and I know it, but I think Dakich did more for this program in the short time he was here than any other coach since 1999.  He had to clean house, and he did.   Many here don't like the guy, and I know that.  

 

Regarding your first....kids don't know who most assistant coaches are.  Calbert is as credentialed to recruit to Indiana as anyone who would get the job.  Catering to the immediate satisfaction, right now side of kids, and hiring that guy for that reason would be a mistake, I think.

[mdn82 25,510]

I am most definitely in the minority and I know it, but I think Dakich did more for this program in the short time he was here than any other coach since 1999.  He had to clean house, and he did.   Many here don't like the guy, and I know that.  
 
Regarding your first....kids don't know who most assistant coaches are.  Calbert is as credentialed to recruit to Indiana as anyone who would get the job.  Catering to the immediate satisfaction, right now side of kids, and hiring that guy for that reason would be a mistake, I think.

Thats fair, but where I differ is most kids do know who the assistants are. Those are the people the players see in the gym every day. Those are the guys you want selling your program which is why you want Calbert. I get it. But the problem is in modern recruiting it’s more important to have assistants with relationships with AAU programs/coaches as well as shoe companies, imo. If we were still the flagship Adidas program it wouldn’t be as important. We are not that anymore. UL and Kansas are above us with Adidas.


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[Josh 12,641]

37 minutes ago, Old Friend said:

We have been down that road.  How many coaches have we hired who have had "strong ________" on paper?    Hasn't worked.     To me, there is no paper profile.  What we really haven't done is hire an IU guy and give him large responsibility.  All moot if Calbert doesn't want it, but seriously...  how much national experience do you need if you understand what you're selling?  "Hi, I'm Calbert Cheaney.   All time NCAA scoring leader and I played at Indiana before I played in the NBA for 15 years."   If I'm a kid not bound by a shoe company, I am now listening.

Calbert is not the all time NCAA scoring leader.

[Old Friend 8,389]

30 minutes ago, Josh said:

Calbert is not the all time NCAA scoring leader.

I know.....don't be nitpicky.  That's not the point.  He is or was the all time Big Ten scoring leader.  

[JaybobHoosier 11,843]

I have not. Names I have heard have all been D 1 assistants

Dane Fife Dane Fife Dane Fife :) lol


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[WayneFleekHoosier 48,378]

 

Dane Fife Dane Fife Dane Fife :) lol

 

 

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Man wouldn’t that be something.

 

I like the way he works Twitter and appears to connect with players past and present.

 

Just don’t let him manage when or when not to foul at the end of games.

 

 

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[LamarCheeks 18,942]

35 minutes ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:

 

Just don’t let him manage when or when not to foul at the end of games.

 

 

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Ha! ... You know, it's funny -- I thought, and still think to this day, that we got totally hosed by the officials against Duke in the 1992 Final Four. ... And I know a lot of IU fans thought that was a bad call in 2002 against Duke, but IMO, Fife did foul Williams. ... And man, was that a stupid play. ... We got sooooo lucky in those final seconds that night. But still, it was a helluva win. 

[Maedhros 627]

3 hours ago, Old Friend said:

I think that's fair.  I differ a little because I think so much has already been tried away from someone who truly understands Indiana.  If we are truly a unique and special program, in my kind, we can't limit all of our assistant coaches to basketball stuff.   They all know basketball stuff.   I differ w you on Flint.  I think he's worthless.  We have had a few worthless coaches over the years.   I'm of the mindset that culture is important and Indiana needs to hire someone who has a detailed and experienced understanding of and ability to sell it.  I really couldn't care less about "national recruiting ties."    In all honesty....other than Oladipo, in the last 15 years, who are the truly difference.making recruits from outside a 4-5 hour drive of Bloomington's campus?  A one and done like Vonleh or Bryant don't really count in my opinion.

How many difference makers would you say IU has had over the past fifteen years (which includes some of the worst in program history), excluding one and dones, even from the state of Indiana? Eric Gordon is out. Romeo Langford is out. If Bryant doesn't count then neither does Zeller; both were in town for two seasons. Do you have anyone other than Yogi? Maybe James Blackmon?

I'll add DJ White (Tuscaloosa AL) to Victor Oladipo and have you matched. Depending on what you consider a difference maker, I could name Christian Watford and Juwan Morgan. Troy Williams and Robert Johnson were key parts of our last Big Ten title team. If you want to expand to the last 20 years, our last Final Four team doesn't get there without Jeff Newton, Kyle Hornsby and AJ Moye. That team maybe wins it all if Kirk Haston stays for his senior year. It's self-defeating and unnecessary to limit yourself to recruiting only the state and immediately surrounding areas. 

None of those kids were Indiana guys before they arrived. Tough to claim any weren't Indiana kids after they left. In that regard they're not unlike Bob Knight. Every time I read about needing an Indiana guy, it always seems to be code for someone with ties to the Knight era. But Knight was born in Ohio, played for Ohio State, and started his coaching career at Army. There was nothing tying him to the culture of Indiana Basketball until he arrived on campus.

Archie was born in Pennsylvania, played at NC State, coached in Ohio, but in his introductory presser he spoke in his prepared remarks of being a Hoosier at heart. There's no reason to think he isn't capable of following in Knight's path and instilling exactly the culture you desire. If he's not, I'm not sure his choice of assist is going to do much to change that.

[RatpigHoosier 1,022]

Maybe Fife will want to jump off a sinking ship and onto a rising one. We did beat MSU both times we played them last year.


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[Old Friend 8,389]

40 minutes ago, Maedhros said:

How many difference makers would you say IU has had over the past fifteen years (which includes some of the worst in program history), excluding one and dones, even from the state of Indiana? Eric Gordon is out. Romeo Langford is out. If Bryant doesn't count then neither does Zeller; both were in town for two seasons. Do you have anyone other than Yogi? Maybe James Blackmon?

I'll add DJ White (Tuscaloosa AL) to Victor Oladipo and have you matched. Depending on what you consider a difference maker, I could name Christian Watford and Juwan Morgan. Troy Williams and Robert Johnson were key parts of our last Big Ten title team. If you want to expand to the last 20 years, our last Final Four team doesn't get there without Jeff Newton, Kyle Hornsby and AJ Moye. That team maybe wins it all if Kirk Haston stays for his senior year. It's self-defeating and unnecessary to limit yourself to recruiting only the state and immediately surrounding areas. 

None of those kids were Indiana guys before they arrived. Tough to claim any weren't Indiana kids after they left. In that regard they're not unlike Bob Knight. Every time I read about needing an Indiana guy, it always seems to be code for someone with ties to the Knight era. But Knight was born in Ohio, played for Ohio State, and started his coaching career at Army. There was nothing tying him to the culture of Indiana Basketball until he arrived on campus.

Archie was born in Pennsylvania, played at NC State, coached in Ohio, but in his introductory presser he spoke in his prepared remarks of being a Hoosier at heart. There's no reason to think he isn't capable of following in Knight's path and instilling exactly the culture you desire. If he's not, I'm not sure his choice of assist is going to do much to change that.

I don't need to through the nomenclature or definition of a difference maker because we won't agree, anyway.  What you're saying doesn't really argue against the point I'm trying to make, either.   When did I say we needed to limit ourselves to just recruiting Indiana?  If you have to put words in my mouth to make your argument, it's not a very good argument.

We have hired several coaches who had "recruiting ties" to various parts of the country, but none brought in the right players to succeed at this school or in this conference.  Who was that mousey guy Crean had who had west coast ties and brought Bawa Muniru?  

Indiana has avoided Knight's guys - except Dakich, and giving IU guys primary roles on this staff since they fired Knight.    You can judge the results for yourself, but when you and others tell me it doesn't matter, I laugh.   Where's the evidence that it doesn't matter?  You have 20 years of trying it the other way, right?  Happy with what that's produced?  I'm not.  My point is culture matters.  Brand matters.   Bruiser Flint et al have not done one damned thing to build the culture or the brand, and in my opinion, it's time we hired someone who can.  

[Old Friend 8,389]

4 hours ago, mdn82 said:

Thats fair, but where I differ is most kids do know who the assistants are. Those are the people the players see in the gym every day. Those are the guys you want selling your program which is why you want Calbert. I get it. But the problem is in modern recruiting it’s more important to have assistants with relationships with AAU programs/coaches as well as shoe companies, imo. If we were still the flagship Adidas program it wouldn’t be as important. We are not that anymore. UL and Kansas are above us with Adidas.


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I get it, but we've tried "coaches with connections."   We've tried east coast, west coast, south...     Calbert Cheaney is on the list of "all time college basketball players."   If he wants the job (caveat) and was given a prominent role; it would take him 3 days to make any connection he needed to make, and AAU is the devil in my opinion.  They have zero interest in the best interests of kids; and I'd rather not hire coaches because of their AAU connections.   I don't care if everyone else is doing it.  I think Indiana is a school who can get kids to commit regardless of some of that peripheral stuff; and the high profile players we've signed who HAVE those connections have done absolutely nothing to build the brand of Indiana Basketball and I can't think of one who's an ambassador for the program.   Oladipo was never in that category in my mind.

[Brass Cannon 24,803]

9 minutes ago, Old Friend said:

I get it, but we've tried "coaches with connections."   We've tried east coast, west coast, south...     Calbert Cheaney is on the list of "all time college basketball players."   If he wants the job (caveat) and was given a prominent role; it would take him 3 days to make any connection he needed to make, and AAU is the devil in my opinion.  They have zero interest in the best interests of kids; and I'd rather not hire coaches because of their AAU connections.   I don't care if everyone else is doing it.  I think Indiana is a school who can get kids to commit regardless of some of that peripheral stuff; and the high profile players we've signed who HAVE those connections have done absolutely nothing to build the brand of Indiana Basketball and I can't think of one who's an ambassador for the program.   Oladipo was never in that category in my mind.

You are vastly overstating how easy it is to make quality connections. These things take years to build. Not 3 days. 

[Maedhros 627]

10 minutes ago, Old Friend said:

I don't need to through the nomenclature or definition of a difference maker because we won't agree, anyway.  What you're saying doesn't really argue against the point I'm trying to make, either.   When did I say we needed to limit ourselves to just recruiting Indiana?  If you have to put words in my mouth to make your argument, it's not a very good argument.

We have hired several coaches who had "recruiting ties" to various parts of the country, but none brought in the right players to succeed at this school or in this conference.  Who was that mousey guy Crean had who had west coast ties and brought Bawa Muniru?  

Indiana has avoided Knight's guys - except Dakich, and giving IU guys primary roles on this staff since they fired Knight.    You can judge the results for yourself, but when you and others tell me it doesn't matter, I laugh.   Where's the evidence that it doesn't matter?  You have 20 years of trying it the other way, right?  Happy with what that's produced?  I'm not.  My point is culture matters.  Brand matters.   Bruiser Flint et al have not done one damned thing to build the culture or the brand, and in my opinion, it's time we hired someone who can.  

It's easy to win a point when you tailor the rules narrowly to suit your purpose. I asked for examples of difference makers that fit your criteria so we could continue the discussion on the same page, but if you're not interested supporting the claim right there in your post, then I'll consider the point ceded and we can move on.

As you note, Indiana had Dakich on staff in 2008. By all accounts arguably the worst year for the culture of this program in a generation. What exactly did having a Knight guy on staff accomplish? What did Dan do as an assistant to build the culture or the brand? I'm not talking about who he booted after he was named interim, but while he was still an assistant, the position we're trying to fill. I want to hear what you think our new assistant will do for us that Bruiser Flint isn't, that you think requires a Knight guy.

[mdn82 25,510]

You are vastly overstating how easy it is to make quality connections. These things take years to build. Not 3 days. 

I think this is the only point I truly disagree with OF on and I just feel it’s essential to modern recruiting.

 

 

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[Brass Cannon 24,803]

3 minutes ago, mdn82 said:

I think this is the only point I truly disagree with OF on and I just feel it’s essential to modern recruiting.

 

 

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I think Calbert could do the Indiana recruitment as OF is describing. But we need somebody that knows the prep school game. Archie seems to have the Indiana schools pretty well under control 

[BtownBanner6 1,298]

10 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said:

I think Calbert could do the Indiana recruitment as OF is describing. But we need somebody that knows the prep school game. Archie seems to have the Indiana schools pretty well under control 

Exactly and I know Old friend is fine with just Indiana players and surrounding states but I think Archie and Ostrom do that just fine, I want somebody that helps us bring is top recruits from outside cause some years the Midwest will be weak recruiting 

[Old Friend 8,389]

1 hour ago, BtownBanner6 said:

Exactly and I know Old friend is fine with just Indiana players and surrounding states but I think Archie and Ostrom do that just fine, I want somebody that helps us bring is top recruits from outside cause some years the Midwest will be weak recruiting 

Disagree here.   Every year, within a 5 hour drive of Bloomington, there are enough good basketball players to win at any level at which we want to win.    However, that's not really my point, either.  I, too want top recruits from anywhere if we can get them and get them to STAY.   What I don't want is some coach with "connections" to some region of the country to be hired instead of someone who understands and can sell the culture here.

If that's an IU guy, I'm obviously in favor of that guy, whoever he is, over someone else.  If it's Jack Sprat from Iowa, great....but the real point is we've tried to hire "coaches with connections," and it's gotten us a few players, but none that helped build the program.  None that helped us win.  None that helped Indiana get old and stay old.  None that are now ambassadors for Indiana Basketball.

The regions from which we recruit aren't really the point.  I think players from the midwest are generally well coached and enough of them on IU's roster (or any roster....see Michigan State) will win year in and year out.    But....enough good players from Texas would too.  The point is simply that I think Indiana University is a unique place and a unique sell.  Tom Crean has to play the AAU and shoe company game at Georgia.  That's the only way he will ever get players.   I don't think that game has to be played as much here; but I DO think any coach who recruits for Indiana needs to sell this program and its history.  Not all kids will buy that or want that; but we've all walked around that campus.  We've all been inside that building.    Guys, there ain't nothin' like it anywhere around.  I don't even think we need very many NBA lottery players to win big.  How many'd Wisconsin have under Bo Ryan in his 14 year tenure?   Wisconsin never finished below 4th in the Big Ten under him.    

There are a whole lot of great basketball players who aren't influenced by shoe companies or AAU money grabs.   I want those kids.  And I want them for 4 years.  

[monskisprodigy 1,923]

A name I haven’t seen thrown around (if it has I apologize) is AJ Moye. He’s a director of skill development, trainer at Mamba Sports Academy working with Kobe and a Head coach at Oak Park High School per his instagram. If we were going the non D1 route, this could be an interesting hire. Always loved his toughness, and he seems to bleed Cream and Crimson.

Anyone know any more about his coaching history? Has he been involved in the AAU circuit at all?

[ap2345 7,877]

A name I haven’t seen thrown around (if it has I apologize) is AJ Moye. He’s a director of skill development, trainer at Mamba Sports Academy working with Kobe and a Head coach at Oak Park High School per his instagram. If we were going the non D1 route, this could be an interesting hire. Always loved his toughness, and he seems to bleed Cream and Crimson.
Anyone know any more about his coaching history? Has he been involved in the AAU circuit at all?

Well if Chris is right like he usually is then it will be a D1 assistant that is taking Schillings place on the staff.


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