Inclined to Give Archie a Break

[Bigred3588 1,535]

On 1/23/2019 at 5:05 AM, Feathery said:

I’m sticking to my belief that a coach gets 3 seasons. I gave Crean 3, I’ll give Archie 3. If we don’t make the NCAA’s this season, then he must next year or he should go. 

I completely understand our fan base’s impatience but I just don’t see 3 years as enough time to establish consistency. I think you can win in that amount of time by taking what you have and catering to your strengths, but you can’t do that and establish a system at the same time. Adapting to your roster also affects recruiting because it makes it difficult to pitch a kid on their role.

As painful as it is to watch, a winning program has to be built. It can be expedited with the right transfers and/or recruits but that isn’t guaranteed. It can also be done with talent and a basic scheme. Unfortunately, in our case, we’re building for a system that’s predicated on chemistry. It’s also a system that isn’t commonly used at lower levels. With a 3 year time frame, you’re basically telling Archie “You have 3 years to implement a chemistry-based system to players that have never practiced it and may or may not know each other. Oh, by the way, you’re inheriting a team that wasn’t required to play defense and you won’t have any players that you recruited in your first year. We’re gonna need you to deal with it and wait until year 2 to really get started. Half of the team will be guys that you recruited, and I’m sure they’ll pick it right up. You should really be rolling by year 3. If all those 18 and 19 year olds aren’t finishing near the top of the conference, you’re fired.”

[Bailey7878 2,506]

I completely understand our fan base’s impatience but I just don’t see 3 years as enough time to establish consistency. I think you can win in that amount of time by taking what you have and catering to your strengths, but you can’t do that and establish a system at the same time. Adapting to your roster also affects recruiting because it makes it difficult to pitch a kid on their role.
As painful as it is to watch, a winning program has to be built. It can be expedited with the right transfers and/or recruits but that isn’t guaranteed. It can also be done with talent and a basic scheme. Unfortunately, in our case, we’re building for a system that’s predicated on chemistry. It’s also a system that isn’t commonly used at lower levels. With a 3 year time frame, you’re basically telling Archie “You have 3 years to implement a chemistry-based system to players that have never practiced it and may or may not know each other. Oh, by the way, you’re inheriting a team that wasn’t required to play defense and you won’t have any players that you recruited in your first year. We’re gonna need you to deal with it and wait until year 2 to really get started. Half of the team will be guys that you recruited, and I’m sure they’ll pick it right up. You should really be rolling by year 3. If all those 18 and 19 year olds aren’t finishing near the top of the conference, you’re fired.”

I think the real impatience this time comes cause we had to be patient with crean for three seasons and have not had much success in 20 years. If archie was the first go around on this I think people would be more patient. Its probably not fair to him but thats why i think. At least for me it is.

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[Bigred3588 1,535]

7 minutes ago, Bailey7878 said:

I think the real impatience this time comes cause we had to be patient with crean for three seasons and have not had much success in 20 years. If archie was the first go around on this I think people would be more patient. Its probably not fair to him but thats why i think. At least for me it is.

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I agree, and I think Archie will probably always be a polarizing coach due to his approach. I expect that he’ll establish a program that wins consistently, but fans are probably going to be disappointed if they’re expecting the beautiful half court offense and sharpshooting that they associate with Indiana basketball. That just isn’t his system.

I want to see us win as badly as everyone else, but consistency is more important to me than immediate gratification. It sucks to admit but the reality is we’re back at square one in terms of building a program. Personally, I’m willing to be patient. Archie is young, has the potential to lead a winning program for the next 30 years, and intends to do it with Indiana talent. That’s something I’m willing to wait for.

And hey, if it doesn’t work, we can go the Kentucky route that some are suggesting. I just don’t care to watch a team of mercenaries audition for NBA scouts.

[Bailey7878 2,506]

I agree, and I think Archie will probably always be a polarizing coach due to his approach. I expect that he’ll establish a program that wins consistently, but fans are probably going to be disappointed if they’re expecting the beautiful half court offense and sharpshooting that they associate with Indiana basketball. That just isn’t his system.
I want to see us win as badly as everyone else, but consistency is more important to me than immediate gratification. It sucks to admit but the reality is we’re back at square one in terms of building a program. Personally, I’m willing to be patient. Archie is young, has the potential to lead a winning program for the next 30 years, and intends to do it with Indiana talent. That’s something I’m willing to wait for.
And hey, if it doesn’t work, we can go the Kentucky route that some are suggesting. I just don’t care to watch a team of mercenaries audition for NBA scouts.

I dont think we have any choice but to stick with archie at this point the more i think about it. We cant keep up this rollercoaster coaching thing. At least so far it looks like he can recruit pretty well at least. If he can get brooks i think we all may cheer up a bit. When was the last time we had two five stars in one class?

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[Bigred3588 1,535]

On 1/23/2019 at 6:07 AM, IU-DL said:

Don't know who you are 3588, but I agree with every point you made in your summary. I do feel it's worth mentioning that we have enough talent to do "more" than we are, but we aren't. We have extremely long periods where we can't score at all. And our defense first mindset has disappeared.  In addition, I feel like our players are regressing, which is very, very bad.  Last year felt the same way.  Near mid-January, the team just stopped caring.  Remember watching Robert Johnson and it looked like he'd rather be home on his couch instead of playing?  We have that going on again. I don't get it.

Most of the negatives you mention stem from our system. Our defense comes with a trade off: If you have 5 players on the court that know and execute their roles, it’s excellent. However, it can be broken with one mistake. This means that you have to be able to substitute in a way that doesn’t affect the unit, which is only possible if everyone has bought in and knows their role. I’m sure you’re starting to see where the problem lies here.

That, in turn, hurts our offense. Miller’s offense is very similar to Crean’s in that it relies on transition opportunities. When the defense breaks, that doesn’t happen. Add the fact that we basically run a dribble drive without the necessary shooters to open lanes, and you have the recipe for a scoring draught.

Finally, if all of the above happens consistently enough, apathy will set in. Most people will only carry another persons weight for so long before they say “to hell with it.” And it happens even faster when you have guys on the team that didn’t sign up to play that style of basketball.

[coonhounds 10,021]

I dont think many fans will care what the team looks like as long as it is winning at a elite level. I just wonder if you can win at a elite level looking like crap?

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[southernindianahoosier2 972]

9 hours ago, Bailey7878 said:

I dont think we have any choice but to stick with archie at this point the more i think about it. We cant keep up this rollercoaster coaching thing. At least so far it looks like he can recruit pretty well at least. If he can get brooks i think we all may cheer up a bit. When was the last time we had two five stars in one class?

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The only coaches I would even consider at this point is Eric Musselman, Chris Beard, and Brad Stevens. Having said that Musselman and Beard still have a lot to prove. I'm not sure if there's even a viable candidate to replace Archie at this point. Maybe another young superstar will emerge a la Brad Stevens. But I doubt it happens in the next 5 years.  I still wonder that if Archie doesn't make a final four by year six, if we would then have a chance at Brad Stevens. He'd be 47 and have coached in the NBA for 11 years. However, I don't think Fred Glass knows the difference between a sneeze and a wet fart, so I don't trust that he was the right guy or will ever be the right guy to hire the right coach for the job. I also don't believe he should be able to make the next hire. Having said that, the only other coaches I considered during the Archie hire were Chris Holtmann, Brad Stevens, and Billy Donovan. Two of those are still in the NBA and Archie is pretty close with Holtmann both in their second years. Again, I think if we had a better AD and President I think our probability to get either Stevens or Donovan would have been better. I get that it was still likely we would have ended up with Holtmann or Archie, so we'll only know if we made the right decision after looking back on their careers at year 6. 

 

Additionally, I think that the two big issues with the basketball program have been McRobbie and Glass. Now I know most people will counter with "its not been them, its been the coaching", and I would disagree. I believe that McRobbie and Glass have intrinsically devalued the program and brand of Indiana Basketball.... There's no way around it, the extension should have never happened and Crean should have been gone after the 13-14 campaign. (the off-court issues coupled with lack of success was reason enough) That's Archie's Elite 8 year and we could have hired him then or even went after Brad Stevens. Then we could have recruited "Inside Out" and we could have a team this year with Kyle Guy, Kris Wilkes, and Romeo Langford. Then we would be a top 10 team and Final Four Contender. Instead we're doing essentially a complete rebuild that will take at 1 to 2 more years to see results. 

 

Hopefully McRobbie retires after the 2020 bicentennial and the board of trustees (does anyone know if we can trust them?) hires a president comparable to Mitch Daniels and then Fred Glass is on his merry way out the door.

 

 

 

 

[Bigred3588 1,535]

7 hours ago, coonhounds said:

I dont think many fans will care what the team looks like as long as it is winning at a elite level. I just wonder if you can win at a elite level looking like crap?

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Oh I don’t think we’ll always look like crap. It’s the same offense that handed Purdue their worst home loss in team history and ran on UNC like they were a high school team. The difference is that Crean teams had to play like that every game if they wanted a shot at winning. Miller’s scheme promotes the same offensive output but keeps us in a position to win if we have an off night or a team manages to lock us down. Those will be the ugly ones. And yes, you can win like that. Wisconsin was brutal to watch under Ryan but they won for years because Ryan knew the importance of controlling pace and developed his players accordingly.

[Chris007 53,113]

1 hour ago, southernindianahoosier2 said:

The only coaches I would even consider at this point is Eric Musselman, Chris Beard, and Brad Stevens. Having said that Musselman and Beard still have a lot to prove. I'm not sure if there's even a viable candidate to replace Archie at this point. Maybe another young superstar will emerge a la Brad Stevens. But I doubt it happens in the next 5 years.  I still wonder that if Archie doesn't make a final four by year six, if we would then have a chance at Brad Stevens. He'd be 47 and have coached in the NBA for 11 years. However, I don't think Fred Glass knows the difference between a sneeze and a wet fart, so I don't trust that he was the right guy or will ever be the right guy to hire the right coach for the job. I also don't believe he should be able to make the next hire. Having said that, the only other coaches I considered during the Archie hire were Chris Holtmann, Brad Stevens, and Billy Donovan. Two of those are still in the NBA and Archie is pretty close with Holtmann both in their second years. Again, I think if we had a better AD and President I think our probability to get either Stevens or Donovan would have been better. I get that it was still likely we would have ended up with Holtmann or Archie, so we'll only know if we made the right decision after looking back on their careers at year 6. 

 

Additionally, I think that the two big issues with the basketball program have been McRobbie and Glass. Now I know most people will counter with "its not been them, its been the coaching", and I would disagree. I believe that McRobbie and Glass have intrinsically devalued the program and brand of Indiana Basketball.... There's no way around it, the extension should have never happened and Crean should have been gone after the 13-14 campaign. (the off-court issues coupled with lack of success was reason enough) That's Archie's Elite 8 year and we could have hired him then or even went after Brad Stevens. Then we could have recruited "Inside Out" and we could have a team this year with Kyle Guy, Kris Wilkes, and Romeo Langford. Then we would be a top 10 team and Final Four Contender. Instead we're doing essentially a complete rebuild that will take at 1 to 2 more years to see results. 

 

Hopefully McRobbie retires after the 2020 bicentennial and the board of trustees (does anyone know if we can trust them?) hires a president comparable to Mitch Daniels and then Fred Glass is on his merry way out the door.

 

 

 

 

Having a close friend in the basketball office at Butler I asked about Holtmann when the job was open. I was told he said to his agent anyone else he had no interest in the IU job because he doesn't want a "pressure cooker" type of job. That is what made OSU so attractive it is always going to be a football school. 

[Bigred3588 1,535]

8 minutes ago, Chris007 said:

Having a close friend in the basketball office at Butler I asked about Holtmann when the job was open. I was told he said to his agent anyone else he had no interest in the IU job because he doesn't want a "pressure cooker" type of job. That is what made OSU so attractive it is always going to be a football school. 

I literally just grimaced reading that. I wouldn’t want that mentality anywhere around my program.

[Bigred3588 1,535]

13 hours ago, ray said:

I agree with almost all of what BigRed said.

The one glaring difference in opinions is that Juwan wasn’t cut out for a leadership role. I strongly disagree on that point. Juwan’s mother was a drill sergeant in the Army, which makes me think he might have leadership in his DNA. He also seems to show a ton of leadership on the court in my opinion...and winning gold jerseys in practice shows he leads by example too.

On the topic of leadership, I’m guessing  Phinisee becomes the one who shows the most leadership as early as next year...after Juwan departs. He already has it in him, and as the true point guard on the roster, he plays a position that makes him even more fitting for such a role. 

I also agree with BigRed’s assessment of Jerome’s promise (barring any longstanding health concerns). Don Fischer had said on the radio that Hunter was the second best player on the court in all the practices he watched early on. 

I do think Juwan does a good job of leading by example. However, a leader is more than that IMO. I see a leader as the type of guy that goes to the press conference after a loss and takes personal responsibility for the performance of the entire team. They establish themselves as leader through their attitude and their teammates buy in because they know that guy will back it up. They make sure the ball is in their hands when it matters. They know everyone’s role and coach their teammates during the game. And the most important attribute in my eyes; they don’t hesitate to hold their teammates accountable. Some people cringe when they see teammates squabble, but I’d be ecstatic if Juwan got in someone’s face. “Evan, you’re hurting the entire team every time you miss a rotation. Fix it. And Devonte, take another god**** floater and you won’t even see the ball until the second half.” 

I don’t think it’s a lack of effort on Juwan’s part by any means. I just think it takes a certain kind of personality to be a consummate leader. If I’m being blunt, you have to be a bit of an a**hole, but you’re respected for it.

[Chris007 53,113]

26 minutes ago, Bigred3588 said:

I do think Juwan does a good job of leading by example. However, a leader is more than that IMO. I see a leader as the type of guy that goes to the press conference after a loss and takes personal responsibility for the performance of the entire team. They establish themselves as leader through their attitude and their teammates buy in because they know that guy will back it up. They make sure the ball is in their hands when it matters. They know everyone’s role and coach their teammates during the game. And the most important attribute in my eyes; they don’t hesitate to hold their teammates accountable. Some people cringe when they see teammates squabble, but I’d be ecstatic if Juwan got in someone’s face. “Evan, you’re hurting the entire team every time you miss a rotation. Fix it. And Devonte, take another god**** floater and you won’t even see the ball until the second half.” 

I don’t think it’s a lack of effort on Juwan’s part by any means. I just think it takes a certain kind of personality to be a consummate leader. If I’m being blunt, you have to be a bit of an a**hole, but you’re respected for it.

My problem with Juwan this year is how many times has he picked up quick fouls to start the game. You can't lead by example sitting on the sidelines, plus we have to have him on the court for us to have a chance to win. 

[Bigred3588 1,535]

1 hour ago, Chris007 said:

Having a close friend in the basketball office at Butler I asked about Holtmann when the job was open. I was told he said to his agent anyone else he had no interest in the IU job because he doesn't want a "pressure cooker" type of job. That is what made OSU so attractive it is always going to be a football school. 

Took me a minute to find it...

[Bigred3588 1,535]

11 minutes ago, Chris007 said:

My problem with Juwan this year is how many times has he picked up quick fouls to start the game. You can't lead by example sitting on the sidelines, plus we have to have him on the court for us to have a chance to win. 

That has definitely hurt us on more than one occasion. I expected it against Duke but it’s definitely happening more than it should at this stage in his career. What really gets me is the type of fouls he commits. He often guards larger players and I could understand if he was picking up fouls from trying to match their physicality, but a lot of his fouls are just stupid hand check types of mistakes.

[Chris007 53,113]

1 minute ago, Bigred3588 said:

That has definitely hurt us on more than one occasion. I expected it against Duke but it’s definitely happening more than it should at this stage in his career. What really gets me is the type of fouls he commits. He often guards larger players and I could understand if he was picking up fouls from trying to match their physicality, but a lot of his fouls are just stupid hand check types of mistakes.

Yes like his 4th the other night at almost half court. Or some that have been in the backcourt after a rebound. 

[Bigred3588 1,535]

7 minutes ago, Chris007 said:

Yes like his 4th the other night at almost half court. Or some that have been in the backcourt after a rebound. 

Exactly. And the backcourt fouls just raise another question. Archie has publicly stated that he prioritizes transition defense over rebounding, which leads me to believe players aren’t doing what they’re told. I’m not at the practices and could obviously be dead wrong but it does make me wonder.

[Magnanimous 4,785]

The half court ball movement and off-ball sets last season were far superior to what we’ve seen this year. We just needed some shooters to make it work, and just about everyone agreed with that. People lauded Archie following the Duke game last year for how his system kept us in the game, and how if we did the same thing with better players we would have won that and many more games. “This is something we haven’t seen in Bloomington for 20 years” was said by the majority on multiple occasions last season.

I don’t think Archie forgot how to coach that. This group just doesn’t get it. There needs to be a major roster overhaul after this year with regards to our current upperclassmen. We need shooters and guys who will play hungry.

[Bailey7878 2,506]

The half court ball movement and off-ball sets last season were far superior to what we’ve seen this year. We just needed some shooters to make it work, and just about everyone agreed with that. People lauded Archie following the Duke game last year for how his system kept us in the game, and how if we did the same thing with better players we would have won that and many more games. “This is something we haven’t seen in Bloomington for 20 years” was said by the majority on multiple occasions last season.

I don’t think Archie forgot how to coach that. This group just doesn’t get it. There needs to be a major roster overhaul after this year with regards to our current upperclassmen. We need shooters and guys who will play hungry.

I got ripped for saying this team is worst than last years team so be careful

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[Magnanimous 4,785]

1 minute ago, Bailey7878 said:

I got ripped for saying this team is worst than last years team so be careful

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Can’t underscore the value of upperclassmen. 0* Freddie McSwain would offer more than what Romeo is giving us tonight. 

Basketball really is simple: you need size, guys who can shoot, don’t turn the ball over, and good defense is about effort and positioning. We don’t have size or shooters, and you really can’t coach either. Players either have it or they don’t, so until recruiting takes hold and the players gain experience, you’re not going to win. 

[HoosierTrav 8,085]

I’m beginning to believe that our decades long run of mediocrity and inability to sustain success, has little to do with who’s the coach.