So some concerns I’m having...

[mdn82]

That is the same way I feel about McBob and Fitz.

This is fair. I honestly won’t pretend to have an answer or rebuttal. They haven’t been good enough to see the floor. I think we have only seen a handful of players that deserve any minutes and maybe 4 or 5 that deserve major minutes. Depending on our definition of major minutes.

 

 

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[JSHoosier]

11 minutes ago, Class of '66 Old Fart said:

At the rate this thread is growing I need an Evelyn Woods refresher course.  

At the rate this team is going the fans need a refresher on Jack Daniels. 

[Stuhoo]

For me? I think we should get bigger and longer.

That would mean Smith at the 3 instead of the 4 for real stretches of time and, Rob, Romeo and Al at the 1 and 2, but not the 3.  

Or, Juwan at the four and Moore at the five, with Smith as the backup at the three and four.

Won't help our outside shooting any if we do this though.

 

[mdn82]

For me? I think we should get bigger and longer.
That would mean Smith at the 3 instead of the 4 for real stretches of time and, Rob, Romeo and Al at the 1 and 2, but not the 3.  
Or, Juwan at the four and Moore at the five, with Smith as the backup at the three and four.
Won't help our outside shooting any if we do this though.
 

This is where I would lean. I don’t think our shooting will magically fix itself this year, but I think we would have a better chance at creating mismatches with this lineup. Potentially keeps Juwan out of foul trouble.


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[JSHoosier]

4 minutes ago, mdn82 said:

This is where I would lean. I don’t think our shooting will magically fix itself this year, but I think we would have a better chance at creating mismatches with this lineup. Potentially keeps Juwan out of foul trouble.


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It'd be interesting to see.  I'd like for someone to be brought in to help with the shooting, Miller's teams don't typically shoot well so maybe outside eyes can help.

[HoosierAloha]

29 minutes ago, JSHoosier said:

Smith is one spot I'd be looking at changing.  He can be good defensively so it he couldn't be out long.

He just seems to be in a funk defensively.  In the first few minutes against Michigan he missed two rotations for open threes and lost his man for an easy bucket.  I believe 8 of the first 10 or 12 were on Smith.  He can be good defensively but he just seems like he's in LaLa Land too often to start games.  I think I'd pull him early and sit next to him to show him all the rotations he's missing.

It'd be nice to have Davis to put in for him and move Juwan to the 4 but that's not an option.  Moore or Forrester should come in and move Juwan to the 4, unless we're playing against a big 5. 

[Rico]

11 minutes ago, Stuhoo said:

For me? I think we should get bigger and longer.

That would mean Smith at the 3 instead of the 4 for real stretches of time and, Rob, Romeo and Al at the 1 and 2, but not the 3.  

Or, Juwan at the four and Moore at the five, with Smith as the backup at the three and four.

Won't help our outside shooting any if we do this though.

 

I don't know about that.  Playing 2 bigs might just very well open everything up.  

[JSHoosier]

2 minutes ago, HoosierAloha said:

He just seems to be in a funk defensively.  In the first few minutes against Michigan he missed two rotations for open threes and lost his man for an easy bucket.  I believe 8 of the first 10 or 12 were on Smith.  He can be good defensively but he just seems like he's in LaLa Land too often to start games.  I think I'd pull him early and sit next to him to show him all the rotations he's missing.

It'd be nice to have Davis to put in for him and move Juwan to the 4 but that's not an option.  Moore or Forrester should come in and move Juwan to the 4, unless we're playing against a big 5. 

Yeah, that's why I mentioned him.  He been missing rotations or been late to close out on shooters.  Maybe sitting a spell could get him to wake up.

I'd also be fine not doubling with a ball side defender leaving the shooter wide open in the first place.

[BGleas]

I don’t how Smith could play on the wing/3. He hasn’t show any ability to handle the ball, shoot the ball or even remotely take care of the ball. Putting him on the perimeter even more and in even more situations to handle the ball doesn’t sound like a good idea. 

[Rico]

5 hours ago, BGleas said:

I don’t how Smith could play on the wing/3. He hasn’t show any ability to handle the ball, shoot the ball or even remotely take care of the ball. Putting him on the perimeter even more and in even more situations to handle the ball doesn’t sound like a good idea. 

Yeah, Smith is an enigma to me.  I see the "raw" talent, but something don't seem right with him.  Quite frankly, I feel he is playing out of position now.  But I don't really know where to put him.  He is not working as the 4.....and you are right, he won't work as the 3.  At least in this offense.  Head scratcher.

[Stuhoo]

4 hours ago, Rico said:

Yeah, Smith is an enigma to me.  I see the "raw" talent, but something don't seem right with him.  Quite frankly, I feel he is playing out of position now.  But I don't really know where to put him.  He is not working as the 4.....and you are right, he won't work as the 3.  At least in this offense.  Head scratcher.

 

Justin Smith?

A three on defense. A four with no post game and no jump shot on offense.

 

[JSHoosier]

11 hours ago, BGleas said:

I don’t how Smith could play on the wing/3. He hasn’t show any ability to handle the ball, shoot the ball or even remotely take care of the ball. Putting him on the perimeter even more and in even more situations to handle the ball doesn’t sound like a good idea. 

Valid point.  What about a similar big lineup with Morgan at the 3?  Maybe not ideal, but he's been better at all of those things than Smith has.

[BGleas]

33 minutes ago, JSHoosier said:

Valid point.  What about a similar big lineup with Morgan at the 3?  Maybe not ideal, but he's been better at all of those things than Smith has.

Just my opinion, but I don't think going big is the answer, IU shouldn't be slowing things down they should be speeding things up. What I would like too see is a more skilled, explosive lineup. I'd go something like Phinisee, Green (I know, I get it, you could also put Durham here), Langford, Morgan, Moore. I think you want Morgan (better shooter, better ball handler, more skilled) in that Smith role. 

With this lineup you have guys that can create, and to varying degrees shoot, at 4 of the 5 spots, and Moore has shown an ability to hit the offensive glass. I think this lineup is faster and has the ability to be more explosive. 

[BGleas]

Just now, Joe DeLow said:

Problem is that our guys are terrible shooters. Like they legitimately suck at this point. Going big, slashing and dominating inside is our only hope.


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I disagree. Of course the shooting has been horrendous, but I think the answer is getting more skilled, fast guys on the court. Smith simply cannot play the 3. He hasn't shown any ability to do anything on the perimeter, and he hasn't shown an ability to finish at the rim or handle the ball. 

If you go with a smaller, quicker lineup you can get faster and more skilled, yet with Morgan at the 4 and someone like Moore we're not giving up size on the inside. While we have struggled to shoot, we can put a better shooting lineup out there in Phinisee (39.6% from 3), Durham (38.9%)/Green (35.6%), Langford (21.1% - not good), Morgan (38.3%) and Moore (not really a shooter). 

That lineup is more skilled and has three guys shooting good from 3 and another (Langford) that while he's struggling from 3 has to be respected as an explosive offensive player.  

[Stuhoo]

29 minutes ago, BGleas said:

I disagree. Of course the shooting has been horrendous, but I think the answer is getting more skilled, fast guys on the court. Smith simply cannot play the 3. He hasn't shown any ability to do anything on the perimeter, and he hasn't shown an ability to finish at the rim or handle the ball. 

If you go with a smaller, quicker lineup you can get faster and more skilled, yet with Morgan at the 4 and someone like Moore we're not giving up size on the inside. While we have struggled to shoot, we can put a better shooting lineup out there in Phinisee (39.6% from 3), Durham (38.9%)/Green (35.6%), Langford (21.1% - not good), Morgan (38.3%) and Moore (not really a shooter). 

That lineup is more skilled and has three guys shooting good from 3 and another (Langford) that while he's struggling from 3 has to be respected as an explosive offensive player.  

 

Yup...maybe part of the solution is 'less Justin Smith'.

 

[BGleas]

32 minutes ago, Joe DeLow said:

We already play small and it hasn’t worked. We’ve already put multiple guards on the floor and it hasn’t worked. Smith has to play at some point and his best spot might be his natural position at the 3. We don’t need 4 guys on the floor that can handle the ball. Romeo and Morgan will dominate the ball no matter who is on the floor. You just need we just need people ready to back cut and catch lobs. The problem is our offense is set solely on the laziest pick and rolls in basketball, no movement, no passing, no cuts, almost zero off ball screens. It’s probably the least creative offense possible. We have to win with defense just stopping people and hoping we score. We are going to suck on offense no matter who we put on the floor.


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What do you mean 'Smith has to play at some point'? Smith has played tons of minutes and he's shown he can't shoot, handle or finish. Defenses literally do not guard him at all, they completely sag off him and it clogs up the entire lane. I'd also disagree that his natural position is the 3. What has he shown that leads you to believe he's capable of playing the 3? Again, he can't handle, shoot or finish. 

Yes, we have played with guards, but we've rarely, if ever, done it with Morgan at the 4. That would be the big change in what I'm suggesting. That could (it might not work, but it's worth a try) completely change the dynamic. We've always done it with Smith at the 4 and we've pretty much covered why his offensive limitations hurt that. Put Morgan at the 4 with 3 guards and now you have threats at 4 of the 5 positions offensively. 

[JSHoosier]

https://www.insidethehall.com/2019/01/30/an-in-depth-look-at-indianas-offensive-struggles-and-some-possible-solutions/

[Rico]

1 hour ago, JSHoosier said:

https://www.insidethehall.com/2019/01/30/an-in-depth-look-at-indianas-offensive-struggles-and-some-possible-solutions/

Interesting read.  Although it did just concentrate on 5 guys.  But where were the fries?

[yogisballin]

You don’t have to be a ball handler to be a 3. I don’t know where that concept came from. You don’t even have to shoot to be a 3. His size and athleticism make him a 3. Instead we start McRoberts at the 3. Are you going to tell me McRoberts is better at the 3? Justin Smith is actually going to be worse at the 3 than McBob? He’s yet to find an open shot he’d want to shoot. Our offense is going to suck. We have to leave it to the defense. Going big, long and athletic is our best option. We don’t have shooters, we don’t have playmakers. Our offense will be the exact same no matter who we trot out there. Guess what? If we put Rob, Al and Romeo out there(which we already do) along with Morgan(which we already do) the offense will still be terrible because it is nothing but pick and rolls. Literally nothing will fix the offense except a new offense. That’s isn’t happening. This team has to lean on its defense to make stops and keep teams under 65.


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But keeping teams under 65 doesn’t help when we can’t score 50! Ugh! Man this is super frustrating


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[Rico]

36 minutes ago, yogisballin said:

But keeping teams under 65 doesn’t help when we can’t score 50! Ugh! Man this is super frustrating


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This part is where I question Archie.  Implement something that gets the offense scoring 70+.  Personnel changes?  Perhaps.  Different offensive scheme?  Maybe.  How about speeding up the game?  Now that is the one I like.