Post Season Thoughts Thread

[woodenshoemanHoosierfan 6,179]

Since 2000, IU BB has been relevant in only about 3 seasons. It has to do with having a competent AD and good coaches. 

I'm confident we have one now.

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[woodenshoemanHoosierfan 6,179]

Interesting article!
https://www.thedailyhoosier.com/history-says-that-patience-is-key-with-the-legendary-coaches/

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[Gahoosierfan 266]

On 3/5/2018 at 10:29 AM, GnarlyTimGarl said:

This one's gonna be a long one...

- I am not going to focus too much on this past season. Rather, I want to look ahead to the future because I believe there is definite reason for optimism next year and beyond. Our marked improvement in several statistical categories such as Defense Efficiency and TO% shows me that we have a coach who can identify our weaknesses and address them. This gives me confidence that our poor shooting is something that can and will be remedied sooner rather than later. I don't believe that's optimism as much as it is logical reasoning but I suppose you could debate that if you wanted. Anyway, next year...

- Our returners will be key. People have a tendency to want to disregard certain key players during a bad season because they didn't perform to certain standards. While I understand their frustrations, it is important that we keep building onto the foundation that has been set this season. The constant roster turnover was a trademark of the Crean years and is a clear example as to why our teams failed to consistently perform at a high level each year. Stability will be key for this program moving forward. We're already losing 5 scholarship seniors this off-season. That's plenty... we don't need anyone else to leave.

- Frontcourt Returners. Juwan Morgan (16.5 PPG, 7.4 RPG) should be a senior. His improvement this past season was remarkable and he developed into a 2nd Team All-Big Ten player. He was a major mismatch problem for the opposition with his ability to both play bigger or smaller than he actually was. His consistent level of production is something that few other players in college basketball can replicate. I know some are worried about him leaving, but I don't see it. Unlike guys like James Blackmon or Troy Williams, Morgan has never come across as the type of player who is bent on playing professional regardless of their draft stock. He may "test the waters", but I think he'll return. If he can continue to work on his outside shot and get even stronger, he's got 1st Team All-Big Ten written all over him next year. I've seen some people downplay De'Ron Davis' (9.6 PPG, 4.3 RPG) role on next year's team claiming he isn't an Archie type of player. I disagree because Archie spent all of last off-season grooming him to become a better player. Coaches don't put that much effort into a player if he isn't expected to be a key cog on the team. Now, I am concerned about him returning from his Achilles' tear and his conditioning. I don't know if we'll see him play more than 20 minutes per game, but he still has the potential to be a strong player for us, especially with post offense. I'd compare him to the effectiveness level of a Sophomore or Junior Isaac Haas. He'll be invaluable going up against the frontcourt of Michigan State and Purdue in addition to guys like Mike Watkins and Bruno Fernando. Justin Smith (6.5 PPG, 3.2 RPG) may be the real key for our future. There has been a lot of talk about needing top talent to be elite. IMO, Smith definitely fits that mold. He has athletic ability that can't be taught. He's the type of guy you see on teams like UNC or Villanova when they're in the Final Four. It'll be interesting to see how his game progresses. He could stay more post-centric and be another Juwan Morgan, or he could develop better handles, defensive quickness and outside shooting to become an NBA-style wing at the "3". At the moment, he has the highest potential to be "great" as anyone on the team, in my opinion. Returning Zach McRoberts (2.8 PPG, 3.4 RPG) will be good for this team because he sets the tone with his hustle and defensive intensity. We'll need him to continue working on his shot to become a better threat on offense. But ideally, we need someone to deservedly take his spot in the starting lineup. That will show progression by the other players. Clifton Moore (0.7 PPG, 0.9 PPG) had all the looks of a guy who was playing against players A LOT better than what he faced in high school. I think he has an interesting skill set and could still play a role on the team, but I'm guessing he'll need to re-evaluate his own expectations. I'm also including Race Thompson as a returner because I think a year on the team will do wonders for his preparedness for the college game. He was a Top 100-level recruit out of high school and he seems to have a body that is built for the rugged Big Ten. I'd say there's a good chance you'll see him in the rotation next year giving us good minutes at the 4 or 5. Don't sleep on how much he could help us.

 

-Backcourt Returners. We're gonna need Devonte Green (7.6 PPG, 2.5 APG) to step up his game as much as anyone. As Archie said, we need singles from him as much as home runs. If this was a baseball season, he would have had way too many 0-4, 3 K types of games this year. He has potential to utilize his ability to create for others and his own shot, but we're gonna need him to be steady for us to have success. A bad Devonte Green really hurts us. But a good one takes us to another level. I was pleased/impressed with how Al Durham (4.8 PPG, 1.9 RPG) ended the season. Similar to Green, I hope he can embrace the role of a steady hand and defensive presence in the backcourt. We'll need him to continue improving his shot to be more consistent from the outside. However, if he attempts to become something he's not (i.e. a "go-to" scorer) it could hurt us more than help us. The fact that these are our only returners in the backcourt makes it imperative that they both take the next step in their development.

-Newcomers. I'm a Robert Phinisee fan. As Old Friend has stated on numerous occasions, if there are 100 better players than him in the nation in his class, I'd like to see them. He's got a quick first step and is much more athletic than he looks which allows him to get to the basket. People rave over his play-making ability, but I think he'll be a better scorer for us next year than what many think. While not an elite shooter, he can more than hold his own in that department. He'll need to get bigger and stronger, but I could definitely see him as an effective starter next year. I won't say he'll be as effective as Yogi, but anyone remember Armon Bassett as a freshman back in 2006-07? Maybe something like that. I've also seen some others make some statements about how Damezi Anderson won't help us much next year, but I am not so sure. I love the way he moves without the ball and comes off of screens. He has a shooter's mentality and will provide us an offensive threat anytime he is on the floor. I do agree that he'll need to up his defense, but that is one area that I have faith in Archie. It'll be interesting to see what position he slides into as a frosh... that may be the tricky part. Every time I have watched a clip of Jerome Hunter I have been impressed. He seems to have an advanced and diverse skill set that could allow him to play early and often next year. If rankings are a good indicator of that stuff, he probably will. I'm curious to watch his motor. Guys like him with high motors usually become REALLY good. Guys like him with low motors usually end up like Jeremy Hollowell. We'll see. Jake Forrester seems to be a guy who might be able to provide some athleticism, energy and effort in the frontcourt next year. It seems like he has a developing skill set, but he can still run the floor well and could thrive in the "dump off" role that Justin Smith filled this year. I think you'll see him as our future "5" in the coming years.

-Players yet to commit? Personally, I think we'll add 1-2 more guys for next year. The elephant in the room is Romeo Langford. If he comes, we'll have our leading scorer and instantly become a contender in a wide open Big Ten. Our backcourt will go from being a question mark to being a strength. However, I do not believe all is lost should he not come. The grad transfer market always produces a number of quality players every year and I think there's a good chance we could pick up a starter caliber player, there. Maybe even a couple for the backcourt. In short, I believe our backcourt will be bolstered in the offseason. By whom? Dunno yet...

-Final Thoughts. Honestly, it's too early to tell. But I'd be surprised if we didn't see an improvement in our overall record next year. I think we could definitely be a bubble team, if not better. If Romeo comes? Let's just say making the tournament won't be a problem...

Looking forward to the offseason and seeing how the program is progressing. I really like how Archie seems to be prioritizing the state with the 2019 guys while also looking at guys like Carton from Iowa for the point guard needs. Guys like Jackson-Davis and Keion Brooks will be very important prospects for us and I think we're doing as good of a job recruiting them as anyone right now. Throw in other guys like Brandon Newman, Alex Hemenway, Armaan Franklin, Mason Gillis, etc. It's gonna be fun seeing how that class shakes out. I like Archie's direction, though. 

It sure is sad that we are hoping to be at least a bubble team. Wow, just sad.

[RatpigHoosier 1,022]

Interesting article!
https://www.thedailyhoosier.com/history-says-that-patience-is-key-with-the-legendary-coaches/

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Thanks for posting this. I wish everyone would take the time to read it. Let's try to not put unreasonable expectations on Archie. Give the man an honest chance and a little time. Good grief!


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[Walking Boot of Doom 18,170]

We were extremely patient with Tom Crean and look where that got us.

It got us a decent amount and back in position to attract one of the top, most promising young coaches in the country. It could have gone a hell of a lot worse, and I don’t think enough people here realize that.


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[Bailey7878 2,506]

With all the cheating in cbb and IU having another crappy season my level of "dont really care anymore" is getting up there. Had to read BTB to find out who won the BTT and catch up on the March Madness drawings. We really need next year to be positive.

I missed the selection show. Never used to when iu was good.

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[Bailey7878 2,506]

We were extremely patient with Tom Crean and look where that got us.

I hated the hire and wanted him gone several different times. His third year was a fiasco and that alone should of gotten him fired.. I was told you don't know what he inherited blah blah blah. He was kept at least two years two long and amazingly some people still did not want him gone.



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[RatpigHoosier 1,022]

We were extremely patient with Tom Crean and look where that got us.

Difference is coaching philosophy. Crean's style wasn't a good fit and was exacerbated by his reluctance to go after the local talent. He also was just plain hyper. We were patient with him and there was some sporadic success, he just didn't grow the program as he should have based on that success. In the end, as Glass stated, there wasn't enough consistency.
Anyone can see that Archie is a completely different coach. He is methodical and sees what he wants to accomplish and a path by which to get there. Crean was always looking for the newest shiny thing. I'm sure Archie's style has a much better chance of success, albeit maybe not quick. I would hate for us to give up on him without giving him a chance to develop his system, only to go somewhere else and tear it up.


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[HoosierAloha 30,023]

Another difference between the two..

This offseason Crean would have offered a scholarship to anyone that shot better than 75% at the line. He was crazy sporadic and reactionary. He would have completely ignored all other facets of the game to get good free throw shooters.


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[coonhounds 8,768]

People are bashing archie for a down season are ridiculous. I knew after indiana st game we were in bad shape but yet archie kept it better than it could have been. I am confident we are in good hands. Time is all it is going to take

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[Hoosierfan2017 20,653]

5 hours ago, Iugradman said:

We were extremely patient with Tom Crean and look where that got us.

The thing is, the patience paid off. Crean got us back to the top. Unfortunately, he wasn't able to sustain it. 

[TheWatShot 13,579]

2 hours ago, HoosierAloha said:

Another difference between the two..

This offseason Crean would have offered a scholarship to anyone that shot better than 75% at the line. He was crazy sporadic and reactionary. He would have completely ignored all other facets of the game to get good free throw shooters.


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And that's how you end up with players like Jeremiah April, Tim Priller and Grant Gelon.

 

If Archie recruited like Crean, he would have offered Sean East. Crean offered Etherington for the sole purpose of getting Zeller.

[TheWatShot 13,579]

10 hours ago, Joe DeLow said:

Quite offseason. With Romeo I'm thinking we make the tourney as an 8-11 seed. Without him, NIT at best. Romeo wouldn't be coming into a situation like Zeller did. We don't have a roster with Watford, Hulls and Oladipo. I'm not even sure Romeo is the kind of player to make Indiana what Zeller did. It was known Zeller would stay more than 1 year. That alone have us Yogi. Romeo is one and done. He has no impact beyond his one year. 

You're greatly underestimating how good Romeo is. And that roster with Hulls, Watford and Oladipo won fewer games than this team did.

[HoosierFan1994 4,657]

55 minutes ago, TheWatShot said:

You're greatly underestimating how good Romeo is. And that roster with Hulls, Watford and Oladipo won fewer games than this team did.

Exactly. We were in the Big Ten cellar for three straight years. While the Big Ten wasn't as strong we finished 6th and have more talent coming in/back In 2011-2012 we needed a big man and we got one in Cody. Next year we need a big time scorer and we have a chance with Romeo. I think without Romeo we are a 9-11 seed next year. Maybe better with a grad transfer. With him I think we contend for the Big Ten and have a shot at the Final Four. 

[HoosierTrav 7,684]

There actually won't be a player on the roster as talented as Oladipo. Everyone saw what he was going to be after his freshman year. Zeller came into a very good situation and he himself was just that good. But not only did he make Indiana a very good team on the court, he got Indiana Yogi who helped IU win 2 Big Ten titles. He was the reason for 2 of 3 of the only relevant years we've had in a decade. And next year without Romeo, are we really any better than this year? Doubtful. Probably the exact same. Don't be so blinded. People wanted to believe last summer that this team was more than a 16 win team while people like myself who said we wouldn't be that good and likely win 15 were shot down as idiots. We are returning some players from a 16 win team that didn't have a single win over a Top 50 opponent. We are losing a 1000 point scorer and a senior guard that was a starter for 4 years. RJ had his rough patches but he was better than any of the freshmen we have signed now. Do you really think any of the freshmen can just walk in and replace him? We are again a 15-18 win team at best. And an 18-22 win team with Romeo. It just isn't a talented roster at the moment.

“Everyone saw what he was gonna be after his freshman season.” Well at least I know to never take anything you say seriously.....ever... that statement was so far from reality, guy.


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[Chris007 43,453]

1 hour ago, Joe DeLow said:

There actually won't be a player on the roster as talented as Oladipo. Everyone saw what he was going to be after his freshman year. Zeller came into a very good situation and he himself was just that good. But not only did he make Indiana a very good team on the court, he got Indiana Yogi who helped IU win 2 Big Ten titles. He was the reason for 2 of 3 of the only relevant years we've had in a decade. And next year without Romeo, are we really any better than this year? Doubtful. Probably the exact same. Don't be so blinded. People wanted to believe last summer that this team was more than a 16 win team while people like myself who said we wouldn't be that good and likely win 15 were shot down as idiots. We are returning some players from a 16 win team that didn't have a single win over a Top 50 opponent. We are losing a 1000 point scorer and a senior guard that was a starter for 4 years. RJ had his rough patches but he was better than any of the freshmen we have signed now. Do you really think any of the freshmen can just walk in and replace him? We are again a 15-18 win team at best. And an 18-22 win team with Romeo. It just isn't a talented roster at the moment.

I'm going to be polite and disagree with a lot of what you said. First off we saw some glimpses of what VO could do but his freshman year but he couldn't shoot outside 10 feet. So unless you were in cook hall every day of the summer watching him put up 500 shots a day you had no idea what kind of jump he was going to make. I said after watching open gym last year I didn't think we would be very good this year but ended up better than I thought.

 

Romeo is just a one year player but as you said Cody brought in Yogi well Romeo committing to IU is going to bring other players from the state to IU in the upcoming years. Also last season the players had no idea what the offseason was going to be like or the way Archie would coach them this season. This offseason there is no questions so everyone knows what to expect,  plus the older guys can lead the younger guys. With Romeo, we have two legitimate pros along with Morgan. I agree some people sell us too high but you're selling us too low. 

[TheWatShot 13,579]

A team with Romeo Langford isn't going to be a freaking 8 seed in the tourney. That's all I'm gonna say.

[WayneFleekHoosier 47,721]

A team with Romeo Langford isn't going to be a freaking 8 seed in the tourney. That's all I'm gonna say.

Ben Simmons is better. LSU had other good players that season too.

It can happen.


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[HoosierTrav 7,684]

3 hours ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:

Ben Simmons is better. LSU had other good players that season too.

It can happen.


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This drives me nuts! Simmons is a great player but if you can’t shoot the ball, your team has a major weakness. That LSU team was so 1 dimensional. Romeo and this class brings length and perimeter shooting. I generally agree with your takes on nearly every topic but feel like you’re using a false equivalency here. Romeo is a scorer...which we desperately need and adding Romeo to the mix makes our team dramatically better imho.

[WayneFleekHoosier 47,721]

This drives me nuts! Simmons is a great player but if you can’t shoot the ball, your team has a major weakness. That LSU team was so 1 dimensional. Romeo and this class brings length and perimeter shooting. I generally agree with your takes on nearly every topic but feel like you’re using a false equivalency here. Romeo is a scorer...which we desperately need and adding Romeo to the mix makes our team dramatically better imho.

I think we are a good team if we add Romeo too.

I responding to a post saying any team that adds Romeo will be better than a 8 seed in NCAA. My response was a “nothing is guaranteed” response with an example.

Trae Young is a good example from this season and he is a phenomenal talent.

All this said, if we add Romeo and a piece and retain talent I will be very optimistic myself.


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