OG out for the season

[Hoosierfan2017 23,525]

17 minutes ago, mdn82 said:

You knew what it meant. Is he top 20 in the draft still?


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Maybe top 20 in a Big 10 draft. 

[mdn82 25,799]

What is the timetable for an ACL is basketball? Would he be ready for training camp if he goes that route?


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[Old Friend 8,552]

Hate it for the kid.   Absolutely hate it.  Hope he gets well quickly and recovers fully.

Here's the rest of that story.   Crean has done well sending kids to the NBA.  Nobody can doubt that, and it's fun to see IU kids doing well at the next level.  That said, it has hurt and will continue to hurt the success of IU basketball.  What are we really after?  Are we after consistent success in Bloomington, or are we interested in becoming an NBA factory?   Crean hasn't come close to getting the kind of kids Kentucky does, so we have not and will not contend on a national level consistently.  If we want to become an NBA factory, we need a significant upgrade in the types of kids we recruit.   Losing a kid like OG kills IU because we don't have a viable "next man up."  

The alternative is to do things the way, say, Wisconsin does them.  They are in the conversation for a Big Ten title every season.  Bo Ryan was there 14 years and never finished below 4th in the league.   Ryan never recruited kids with NBA stars in their eyes, even as he sent a few that direction; but he did recruit basketball players...kids who would stay 4 seasons and he generally had lots of upper classmen playing significant minutes.  This season's team is no exception, and once again, they're in the conversation.  Gard's kids finished 3rd a season ago.    Wisconsin has not finished below 4th place in the Big Ten since 2001.   I think every IU fan would be okay with that.  And, IU can usually get enough talent to have NCAA tournament success.  Wisconsin's had their share, and I believe conference success breeds post season success most of the time.  

Michigan State is another obvious example.  Both programs focus on recruiting locally (Wisconsin spent $60,000 recruiting in 2015, IU spent > $600,000), they recruit kids they keep around for a while, and they just keep re-stocking.  The formula's there in my opinion, and this injury - if I were Fred Glass - would lead me to a meeting with Crean to perhaps change focus and do things a little differently, using Wisconsin as the example.

If they lost....Bronson Koenig, for example, they'd be okay.  They'd struggle if they lost Hayes, but he's a senior.  Losing OG as a sophomore hurts IU from the standpoint of this season's team, and moving forward.   You just don't replace a kid like him, and now, having hurt his knee, he's a very likely NBA departure because the risk simply is no longer worth it to him.

So Crean finds himself between a rock and a hard place.  He is neither building a roster for long term success nor succeeding with the short term kids he does get.   I hate this for OG and I'm praying for him, however from a bigger picture standpoint, I think some good can come from it.   

[Hoosierfan2017 23,525]

2 minutes ago, Old Friend said:

Hate it for the kid.   Absolutely hate it.  Hope he gets well quickly and recovers fully.

Here's the rest of that story.   Crean has done well sending kids to the NBA.  Nobody can doubt that, and it's fun to see IU kids doing well at the next level.  That said, it has hurt and will continue to hurt the success of IU basketball.  What are we really after?  Are we after consistent success in Bloomington, or are we interested in becoming an NBA factory?   Crean hasn't come close to getting the kind of kids Kentucky does, so we have not and will not contend on a national level consistently.  If we want to become an NBA factory, we need a significant upgrade in the types of kids we recruit.   Losing a kid like OG kills IU because we don't have a viable "next man up."  

The alternative is to do things the way, say, Wisconsin does them.  They are in the conversation for a Big Ten title every season.  Bo Ryan was there 14 years and never finished below 4th in the league.   Ryan never recruited kids with NBA stars in their eyes, even as he sent a few that direction; but he did recruit basketball players...kids who would stay 4 seasons and he generally had lots of upper classmen playing significant minutes.  This season's team is no exception, and once again, they're in the conversation.  Gard's kids finished 3rd a season ago.    Wisconsin has not finished below 4th place in the Big Ten since 2001.   I think every IU fan would be okay with that.  And, IU can usually get enough talent to have NCAA tournament success.  Wisconsin's had their share, and I believe conference success breeds post season success most of the time.  

Michigan State is another obvious example.  Both programs focus on recruiting locally (Wisconsin spent $60,000 recruiting in 2015, IU spent > $600,000), they recruit kids they keep around for a while, and they just keep re-stocking.  The formula's there in my opinion, and this injury - if I were Fred Glass - would lead me to a meeting with Crean to perhaps change focus and do things a little differently, using Wisconsin as the example.

If they lost....Bronson Koenig, for example, they'd be okay.  They'd struggle if they lost Hayes, but he's a senior.  Losing OG as a sophomore hurts IU from the standpoint of this season's team, and moving forward.   You just don't replace a kid like him, and now, having hurt his knee, he's a very likely NBA departure because the risk simply is no longer worth it to him.

So Crean finds himself between a rock and a hard place.  He is neither building a roster for long term success nor succeeding with the short term kids he does get.   I hate this for OG and I'm praying for him, however from a bigger picture standpoint, I think some good can come from it.   

Crean's "graduate players in 3 years" model kinda screws things up. I'm not going to criticize him for graduating his players, that would be ridiculous, but we need seniors. His teams that have seniors on them do much better than his team's that don't. His philosophy of trying to get his players a degree and to the NBA in 3 years max is good for the players, but it's not good for building a team. And like you said, we don't get good enough recruits to be a revolving door basketball factory. 

[Trish 12,791]

20 hours ago, HoosierRob said:

We sure are an injury prone team. Get well og.

Some NBA scouts are saying this won't hurt him that much. I have to agree, he has scary potential. Yeah he's not an elite scorer.. but he's going to be one of them mid 1st round picks who blows up. 

 

 

[Josh 12,949]

46 minutes ago, mdn82 said:

What is the timetable for an ACL is basketball? Would he be ready for training camp if he goes that route?


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July/August for full participation in practice I'd think

[Josh 12,949]

5 hours ago, FortWayneHoosier said:

You heard it here first


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Actually, I read it here first

 

[Trish 12,791]

48 minutes ago, mdn82 said:

What is the timetable for an ACL is basketball? Would he be ready for training camp if he goes that route?


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Well it's January. Training camp starts at the end of September. I'd say he should be 90-100% ready by then. If he was going to tear his ACL, this would probably be the "best" time if that makes sense. 

Of course, it varies from athlete to athlete. I think he'll go pro, it's too big of a risk to stay IMO. Hell, we are already oversigned by 3 right? 

[Trish 12,791]

Crean told Woj about the news so he could break it first. Followed by an official statement from the team. Woj and Tommy are close. They both help each other out.

[8bucks 7,071]

Crean told Woj about the news so he could break it first. Followed by an official statement from the team. Woj and Tommy are close. They both help each other out.

This also is a way to keep the media on your side and not calling for your head.

[recker222000 1,010]

 

Well it's January. Training camp starts at the end of September. I'd say he should be 90-100% ready by then. If he was going to tear his ACL, this would probably be the "best" time if that makes sense. 

Of course, it varies from athlete to athlete. I think he'll go pro, it's too big of a risk to stay IMO. Hell, we are already oversigned by 3 right? 

Three so far

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[recker222000 1,010]

I guess no morgan tomorrow. Twin towers time.

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[Bowhunter 2,997]

OG was our defensive stopper on a poor defensive team.  Irreplaceable. 

[FortWayneHoosier 6,492]

Actually, I read it here first

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Lol


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[HoosierTrav 8,094]

Crean told Woj about the news so he could break it first. Followed by an official statement from the team. Woj and Tommy are close. They both help each other out.

Truth

[incrediboy 928]

Let's have an optimistic note to go with this:

Last year, JBJ went down. Whatever you want to say about our defensive improvement about not having him on the floor, it was pretty much at that moment that the rest of the guys came together and started playing their hearts out every time up and down the floor. We have enough talent to win a lot of games without OG if the current group will pick up that same rallying point. As OG was really popular with the rest of the guys, I will not be surprised if that is indeed what happens.

[goonaha 2,974]

Hate it for the kid.   Absolutely hate it.  Hope he gets well quickly and recovers fully.

Here's the rest of that story.   Crean has done well sending kids to the NBA.  Nobody can doubt that, and it's fun to see IU kids doing well at the next level.  That said, it has hurt and will continue to hurt the success of IU basketball.  What are we really after?  Are we after consistent success in Bloomington, or are we interested in becoming an NBA factory?   Crean hasn't come close to getting the kind of kids Kentucky does, so we have not and will not contend on a national level consistently.  If we want to become an NBA factory, we need a significant upgrade in the types of kids we recruit.   Losing a kid like OG kills IU because we don't have a viable "next man up."  

The alternative is to do things the way, say, Wisconsin does them.  They are in the conversation for a Big Ten title every season.  Bo Ryan was there 14 years and never finished below 4th in the league.   Ryan never recruited kids with NBA stars in their eyes, even as he sent a few that direction; but he did recruit basketball players...kids who would stay 4 seasons and he generally had lots of upper classmen playing significant minutes.  This season's team is no exception, and once again, they're in the conversation.  Gard's kids finished 3rd a season ago.    Wisconsin has not finished below 4th place in the Big Ten since 2001.   I think every IU fan would be okay with that.  And, IU can usually get enough talent to have NCAA tournament success.  Wisconsin's had their share, and I believe conference success breeds post season success most of the time.  

Michigan State is another obvious example.  Both programs focus on recruiting locally (Wisconsin spent $60,000 recruiting in 2015, IU spent > $600,000), they recruit kids they keep around for a while, and they just keep re-stocking.  The formula's there in my opinion, and this injury - if I were Fred Glass - would lead me to a meeting with Crean to perhaps change focus and do things a little differently, using Wisconsin as the example.

If they lost....Bronson Koenig, for example, they'd be okay.  They'd struggle if they lost Hayes, but he's a senior.  Losing OG as a sophomore hurts IU from the standpoint of this season's team, and moving forward.   You just don't replace a kid like him, and now, having hurt his knee, he's a very likely NBA departure because the risk simply is no longer worth it to him.

So Crean finds himself between a rock and a hard place.  He is neither building a roster for long term success nor succeeding with the short term kids he does get.   I hate this for OG and I'm praying for him, however from a bigger picture standpoint, I think some good can come from it.   

How is it Crean's fault that OG, who was an under recruited 3 star recruit, developed fast enough to get drafted after 2 years?

Oh, and losing Koenig or Hayes would absolutely devastate that Wisco team. No need to jerk them off that much.


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[Old Friend 8,552]

1 minute ago, goonaha said:

 

How is it Crean's fault that OG, who was an under recruited 3 star recruit, developed fast enough to get drafted after 2 years?

Oh, and losing Koenig or Hayes would absolutely devastate that Wisco team. No need to jerk them off that much.


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1)  You missed the point completely

2) Koenig - no it wouldn't.  Hayes - yeah it would and I said so.   

[GnarlyNormEllenberger 1,462]

On 1/20/2017 at 6:16 PM, Old Friend said:

Hate it for the kid.   Absolutely hate it.  Hope he gets well quickly and recovers fully.

Here's the rest of that story.   Crean has done well sending kids to the NBA.  Nobody can doubt that, and it's fun to see IU kids doing well at the next level.  That said, it has hurt and will continue to hurt the success of IU basketball.  What are we really after?  Are we after consistent success in Bloomington, or are we interested in becoming an NBA factory?   Crean hasn't come close to getting the kind of kids Kentucky does, so we have not and will not contend on a national level consistently.  If we want to become an NBA factory, we need a significant upgrade in the types of kids we recruit.   Losing a kid like OG kills IU because we don't have a viable "next man up."  

The alternative is to do things the way, say, Wisconsin does them.  They are in the conversation for a Big Ten title every season.  Bo Ryan was there 14 years and never finished below 4th in the league.   Ryan never recruited kids with NBA stars in their eyes, even as he sent a few that direction; but he did recruit basketball players...kids who would stay 4 seasons and he generally had lots of upper classmen playing significant minutes.  This season's team is no exception, and once again, they're in the conversation.  Gard's kids finished 3rd a season ago.    Wisconsin has not finished below 4th place in the Big Ten since 2001.   I think every IU fan would be okay with that.  And, IU can usually get enough talent to have NCAA tournament success.  Wisconsin's had their share, and I believe conference success breeds post season success most of the time.  

Michigan State is another obvious example.  Both programs focus on recruiting locally (Wisconsin spent $60,000 recruiting in 2015, IU spent > $600,000), they recruit kids they keep around for a while, and they just keep re-stocking.  The formula's there in my opinion, and this injury - if I were Fred Glass - would lead me to a meeting with Crean to perhaps change focus and do things a little differently, using Wisconsin as the example.

If they lost....Bronson Koenig, for example, they'd be okay.  They'd struggle if they lost Hayes, but he's a senior.  Losing OG as a sophomore hurts IU from the standpoint of this season's team, and moving forward.   You just don't replace a kid like him, and now, having hurt his knee, he's a very likely NBA departure because the risk simply is no longer worth it to him.

So Crean finds himself between a rock and a hard place.  He is neither building a roster for long term success nor succeeding with the short term kids he does get.   I hate this for OG and I'm praying for him, however from a bigger picture standpoint, I think some good can come from it.   

Haven't posted in awhile, but first and foremost, I agree with your perspective. Pretty much the way I see it, too.

However, I'd argue that OG's injury NOW will better help IU in the long run (or at least next year.) OG was/is likely to leave after the season regardless of his injury (as you probably agree.) Unfortunately, we haven't played that well with him in the lineup this year (which is a "team" problem... just like the beginning of last year.) But now, with him being out for the season, it shortens the bench. It limits our options. We have to play simpler.And coach doesn't get to overthink his personnel decisions (as much) because his options are limited. The manic substitutions are less-frequent.  

Dakich hit on this a bit during the broadcast. Last year, it took Blackmon getting hurt for roles to really be defined. Then, it became Yogi's team (and it wasn't before then.) It also allowed more run for OG and Morgan, who both were used only sparingly in the preseason. Then, by the time Johnson went out with an injury, both OG and Morgan were legit contributors. And thus... they rode the momentum into this season and have become two of our top players. But would have OG and Morgan got as much run in the season had Blackmon never been hurt? Somehow, I doubt it.

This year, we can already see some similar themes. OG is out. Blackmon is becoming Batman (at least on offense.) Johnson is Robin. Bryant is... well... I'm not gonna get into that. Those three will have to lead us. But OG's injury allows more time (albeit in various lineups at different positions) for other guys to build confidence by making good plays. You're seeing that with McRoberts, Green and Davis. And those three will need some success and experience to build on this year because they'll be vital pieces for us next year and beyond. And I doubt they would have those opportunities to flourish had OG stayed healthy. So in a weird type of way... the added PT for guys like Green and Davis may allow them to blossom at the end of the year when they wouldn't have had the opportunity otherwise. And that will help for next year when we lose Blackmon, Bryant and OG. Does that lower our ceiling for this season? Yes, but it's not like we were "rolling" anyway.

But I'm digressing. I completely agree with your sentiments. While this situation may prepare us a bit more for next season, it still doesn't give us sustained success long-term. Crean seems to build his rosters one season at a time. And unless you can pull off UK-like recruiting classes, that's problematic for sustained success. You have to bank on hitting the diamonds in the rough like OG and Oladipo. Those aren't good odds. It also furthers the thought that 2012-13 was the one opportunity Crean had when all the stars lined up in his favor with talent, experience and depth. 

 

[rebelhoosier848891 9,588]

Prayers for OG----he was our X-factor, We will miss him and I hope he heals fast. The freshman are really going to have to step it up---and they have shown signs they can----next man up--even though a talent like OG is irreplaceable by one person---going to take a team to make up for his loss.