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jbeaman9

24 year old loyal Hoosier fan

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Being a Hoosier doesn't mean you have to be from Indiana. It means that you play with every ounce of heart, soul, grit and grind FOR Indiana.

IMO there are three primary reasons why that doesn't occur near to the same degree as what it has in the past.

1) Since RMK the program has been either a dumpster fire or on a steady decline or a combination thereof.
2) given #1, IU isn't near the dominate program in the state that it once was. In a state where a ton of bball talent originates, they now go elsewhere. Out of state kids no longer revere IU.
3) NBA: for a significant number of top of line players, college is now a 1-2 year stopover to their primary goal. A degree.....you must be kidding.


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I am getting old. I agree with everything said. Just my earliest memories were Steve Alford, Damon Bailey at the Dome, hating Glen Robinson, Brian Evans, Alan Henderson, Calbert Cheaney.

Then the flip side you guys think this is a dumpster fire. Think of Luke Recker. The balls to turn his back on IU and Knight? My god that would be like the starting 5 of UK ankling Zeller and all taking turns punching him in the nuts on national tv. I was in high school and it still didn't make sense to me. Then Collier, but he wasn't the 2nd coming of Bailey. Then Knight getting fired. This now is bad, but it's not the worse thing.

I know younger people can't understand the fixation with Knight. He is on the Mt. Rushmore of college basketball. Coach K is on his tier. Could coach and recruit and win. While running a clean program. It will get better. Been saying that for close to 20 years.


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Toughness is not our problem this year, in my opinion. Heck, we're out-rebounding everyone! A lot of the same guys who seemed tough last year are playing lost at times. Our problem this year is that our guys are "playing unprepared."

That having been said, this year's team STILL has a better chance of winning a national championship than last year's team. 

 


Yogi made good players great and was a leader in his last year at IU. I've questioned whether OG is playing a bit cautious after his injuries. I've questioned whether Bryant knows what he is doing. I think both of those players benefited a great deal from Yogi. It seems like we have a Sheehey situation here. Sheehey knew his role and played it perfectly. His role changed as a senior and he wasn't able to adapt. This year's expectations were based greatly off of the progression of freshmen and sophomores last season. They've failed to stay in their lane and execute. They also haven't faced any consequences for veering all over the place. This team needs a steering wheel like two weeks ago.

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Being a Hoosier doesn't mean you have to be from Indiana. It means that you play with every ounce of heart, soul, grit and grind FOR Indiana.

IMO there are three primary reasons why that doesn't occur near to the same degree as what it has in the past.

1) Since RMK the program has been either a dumpster fire or on a steady decline or a combination thereof.
2) given #1, IU isn't near the dominate program in the state that it once was. In a state where a ton of bball talent originates, they now go elsewhere. Out of state kids no longer revere IU.
3) NBA: for a significant number of top of line players, college is now a 1-2 year stopover to their primary goal. A degree.....you must be kidding.


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I don't know. We were dominant. But Purdue was pretty damn good in the 90s. They just didn't win in the tourney. Those early 90s IU vs PU games were advertised like what Duke vs UNC has been over the last 10 years. On number 3 I agree. The times have changed. We haven't because we have been living off of tradition that is 40 years old without regard for what kids care about. We had Seth Greenburg Emcee our Hoosier Hysteria for Christ sake when uk can pull Drake.


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I don't know. We were dominant. But Purdue was pretty damn good in the 90s. They just didn't win in the tourney. Those early 90s IU vs PU games were advertised like what Duke vs UNC has been over the last 10 years. On number 3 I agree. The times have changed. We haven't because we have been living off of tradition that is 40 years old without regard for what kids care about. We had Seth Greenburg Emcee our Hoosier Hysteria for Christ sake when uk can pull Drake.


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How old am I when my first thought was "thank God we didn't have Drake!"?


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There are some that play hard consistently, I can't argue that. I will say this, in reference to the teams I mentioned earlier. Going back and watching highlights or old games. How many players like TB do you see? Complaining nearly every possession, gets one layup with a foul and pounds his chest. I've watched the IU v Duke 2002 game so many times on YouTube it's unreal. When JJ hit some of his great shots during the final stretch of the game. Watch his reaction, he turns around and runs to get back and get a stop. I know it's old fashioned and not "cool" anymore but I wish we had a defensive stopper. Not one person on this roster I would bet on to get a big time stop when necessary.


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I guess I don't get the whole point of this thread yet then. Are we talking about skills or how much someone is a Hoosier over someone else? TB whines a lot, sure. But I wouldn't ever question how much he cares about his team and teammates. He's an emotional guy and never hides that. He also happens to not be very good on defense, which I guess makes him less of a Hoosier? Idk. I would love to have a team full of guys that we could rely on to get stops, but that problem consistently comes from higher up than *just* the players and, in my opinion, has nothing to do with how much this specific team cares about the school or each other or the fans or whatever. (Holy run-on sentence)


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Yogi made good players great and was a leader in his last year at IU. I've questioned whether OG is playing a bit cautious after his injuries. I've questioned whether Bryant knows what he is doing. I think both of those players benefited a great deal from Yogi. It seems like we have a Sheehey situation here. Sheehey knew his role and played it perfectly. His role changed as a senior and he wasn't able to adapt. This year's expectations were based greatly off of the progression of freshmen and sophomores last season. They've failed to stay in their lane and execute. They also haven't faced any consequences for veering all over the place. This team needs a steering wheel like two weeks ago.


Excellent point. I think some may have underestimated the importance of Yogi not just as a leader and scorer but as a facilitator.


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I guess I don't get the whole point of this thread yet then. Are we talking about skills or how much someone is a Hoosier over someone else? TB whines a lot, sure. But I wouldn't ever question how much he cares about his team and teammates. He's an emotional guy and never hides that. He also happens to not be very good on defense, which I guess makes him less of a Hoosier? Idk. I would love to have a team full of guys that we could rely on to get stops, but that problem consistently comes from higher up than *just* the players and, in my opinion, has nothing to do with how much this specific team cares about the school or each other or the fans or whatever. (Holy run-on sentence)


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The point of this was to see what others thought about the heart and competitiveness of the teams the last 5 years or so as compared to teams from '02 and earlier. I'm young, I don't know what it was like to watch the Knight era teams. Were they fun to watch? Were there times you questioned heart or effort? I understand heart and effort don't win games, but sometimes, in some cases, I'd rather watch those early Crean teams fight and scratch and battle for 40 minutes and lose by 20 than watch this year's team beat Austin Peay by 40.


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18 minutes ago, mdn82 said:

I am getting old. I agree with everything said. Just my earliest memories were Steve Alford, Damon Bailey at the Dome, hating Glen Robinson, Brian Evans, Alan Henderson, Calbert Cheaney.

Then the flip side you guys think this is a dumpster fire. Think of Luke Recker. The balls to turn his back on IU and Knight? My god that would be like the starting 5 of UK ankling Zeller and all taking turns punching him in the nuts on national tv. I was in high school and it still didn't make sense to me. Then Collier, but he wasn't the 2nd coming of Bailey. Then Knight getting fired. This now is bad, but it's not the worse thing.

I know younger people can't understand the fixation with Knight. He is on the Mt. Rushmore of college basketball. Coach K is on his tier. Could coach and recruit and win. While running a clean program. It will get better. Been saying that for close to 20 years.


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Bob Knight had few equals.  It was an absolute joy to feel we had a chance just by looking on the sidelines and knowing we had a master tactician calling the shots; we pretty much always had the upper hand in terms of coaching. 

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The point of this was to see what others thought about the heart and competitiveness of the teams the last 5 years or so as compared to teams from '02 and earlier. I'm young, I don't know what it was like to watch the Knight era teams. Were they fun to watch? Were there times you questioned heart or effort? I understand heart and effort don't win games, but sometimes, in some cases, I'd rather watch those early Crean teams fight and scratch and battle for 40 minutes and lose by 20 than watch this year's team beat Austin Peay by 40.


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Well to preface, I'm your age and I think a lot of IU fans our age wonder the same thing. So I guess I can't totally answer your question the way you're looking for. But in my opinion, I think the teams the last two years are full of likable, hard working guys and I enjoy the hell out of watching them. We can't blame them for who they play and, in some cases, how they're coached so I hope IU fans aren't too unfair to the players by looking for another scapegoat(s) during our "season on the brink". Personally, I'd rather see the 40 point win than the 20 point loss but I do see your point, I just disagree with it regarding these last two teams. Now the Vonleh year? *That* was unenjoyable basketball for this Hoosier fan. I just get a totally different vibe from this and last year.


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Bob Knight had few equals.  It was an absolute joy to feel we had a chance just by looking on the sidelines and knowing we had a master tactician calling the shots; we pretty much always had the upper hand in terms of coaching. 


I would add that Knight didn't allow players to play out of control or without passion. Knight was the type of competitor that wanted to beat you to the door if that was the game being played. He also projected that to his team and fans.

Crean seems like a good guy and wants the best for his players. He wants them to develop and make the NBA. Knight didn't give two shits about the NBA. He first wanted his players to win games for IU. That would be the biggest difference in the two.

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I am 36.

Calbert, Henderson teams were remarkable but I was young.

2002 I was in college and that was an incredibly fun year. We weren't anywhere close to the most talented team. But we beat the most talented team. That team played VERY hard and mostly smart. It was what turned me into an IUBB nut.

The "Zeller" Hoosiers were a joy to watch. Those teams were smart in spite of Crean. (Still had in-bounding issues and major league defensive weaknesses).

Last year's team was great when we hit our stride.

This year's team (re-Kansas) has potential but they are so lost and so unprepared. This losing streak is exposing everything that Crean struggles with.

I find myself easily rooting for OG, Juwan, Rojo, DD, McRoberts. The theme is they play hard on both sides of the court.

Crean has been driving me bonkers though so I'm discombobulated.

I want to be a blueblood. Recruit like a blueblood. Win like a blueblood.

I want a team that HATES to lose anything. I want a team whose primary goal is to WIN at IU.

Yep. That should do it.


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I began watching IU basketball in 1991-92. A 6-7 year old kid from Wisconsin who just wanted to watch basketball with his dad. The Badgers, hadn't beaten Indiana in 20 some years and my father happened to like Indiana and Bob Knight. I loved watching those games. The 92 team featured Damon Bailey, Calbert Cheaney and Brian Evans. They were stars who all played 3-4 years. That team went on to the final four and lost to the eventual champion. I fell in love with march madness and cbb because of them and haven't missed a game since. To your point, I don't see the effort of today's players being different at all. This current group plays as hard as any of those teams in my opinion...truth. That said, I have to say this. What you are seeing is not a lack of effort or a lack of "IU Guys". What you are seeing is a lack of talent. Those teams from the past had recruiting rankings in the national top 5 EVERY YEAR. Look at KU, Duke, Kansas... Best recruiting classes annually=best teams annually. We recruit teams ranked much much further down the line and the results are as expected. Are we talented now? Yes. Are we top 10 talented? No. Fellas, we won national titles because we had the BEST PLAYERS CBB had to offer, and even when we didn't, We had arguably the best coaching staff and a system that would allow mediocre players to become great. Also, the landscape has changed so that the players from that era who would stay 3-4 nearly always, are today leaving after one or two. That's why the Kentucky's of the world recruit full teams each year. In my humble opinion, we can't recruit a class ranked above 40 and expect titles because they have the talent to beat Austin Pea by 50. Kentucky has the #1 class in the nation coming in next year....guess what ours is?


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Unfortunately Knight was irascible and would have a few down years due to lack of talent. However, he'd win multiple B10 championships and get IU a national championship every five or six years. His focus was defense, fundamentals, good shot selection, minimize turnovers, screening, get fouled and make free throws while minimizing fouls from his players. Most of his teams played with poise and heart. The team with Cheaney, the Grahams, (Pat was often injured) Reynolds, Eric Anderson, Henderson, Bailey et. al. was loaded, but every time IU players touched the ball in that final four game vs. Duke, Valentine blew his whistle. There was a huge disparity in fouls called against IU in that game. Yes I'm partial, but many felt that Valentine didn't like RMK. The aforementioned, sans Valentine, is part of what many IU fans liked with most of Knights teams.

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Yep cappy.

Recruiting is the easiest route to the top. That's why I follow it relentlessly.

Coaching 'em up can work too, but it is SO much harder. Not Creans strong suit.


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So how do we get those 5stars with consistency? Crean has the ability in that area I believe. Why are the state kids going elsewhere? I think there is a place to start. I think we need to take risks with the schedule. We stepped up a fraction this year but, I think we need to double and triple down on that provided we have maintained competitive talent next year. Big games, National t.v. Audiences.....exposure. I remember hearing commentators one time, talking about how Knight recruited easily because the players knew that a majority of their games would be played on CBS National or ESPN. It was like that, I remember. This creampuff schedule is hurting us in recruiting more than losing to a powerhouse on CBS in my opinion. I really hate that we are playing those teams in the non-con.


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1 hour ago, cappymo14 said:

I began watching IU basketball in 1991-92. A 6-7 year old kid from Wisconsin who just wanted to watch basketball with his dad. The Badgers, hadn't beaten Indiana in 20 some years and my father happened to like Indiana and Bob Knight. I loved watching those games. The 92 team featured Damon Bailey, Calbert Cheaney and Brian Evans. They were stars who all played 3-4 years. That team went on to the final four and lost to the eventual champion. I fell in love with march madness and cbb because of them and haven't missed a game since. To your point, I don't see the effort of today's players being different at all. This current group plays as hard as any of those teams in my opinion...truth. That said, I have to say this. What you are seeing is not a lack of effort or a lack of "IU Guys". What you are seeing is a lack of talent. Those teams from the past had recruiting rankings in the national top 5 EVERY YEAR. Look at KU, Duke, Kansas... Best recruiting classes annually=best teams annually. We recruit teams ranked much much further down the line and the results are as expected. Are we talented now? Yes. Are we top 10 talented? No. Fellas, we won national titles because we had the BEST PLAYERS CBB had to offer, and even when we didn't, We had arguably the best coaching staff and a system that would allow mediocre players to become great. Also, the landscape has changed so that the players from that era who would stay 3-4 nearly always, are today leaving after one or two. That's why the Kentucky's of the world recruit full teams each year. In my humble opinion, we can't recruit a class ranked above 40 and expect titles because they have the talent to beat Austin Pea by 50. Kentucky has the #1 class in the nation coming in next year....guess what ours is?


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I agree with a lot of what you said, but I have to disagree on us not being a top 10 team talent wise. We don't get the highest ranked kids and we don't pull down top 5-10 recruiting classes, but I think if you gave this squad to an Izzo or a Coach K they'd have them competing for a national championship. We have a lot of nice puzzle pieces right now but they're not being put in the right spots. Not even close. 

I'm jealous you got to watch Coach Knight's teams growing up. That's one thing I wish I could've had the chance to do. 

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I agree with a lot of what you said, but I have to disagree on us not being a top 10 team talent wise. We don't get the highest ranked kids and we don't pull down top 5-10 recruiting classes, but I think if you gave this squad to an Izzo or a Coach K they'd have them competing for a national championship. We have a lot of nice puzzle pieces right now but they're not being put in the right spots. Not even close. 

I'm jealous you got to watch Coach Knight's teams growing up. That's one thing I wish I could've had the chance to do. 


Another difference between Crean and Knight. Crean runs around the square peg thinking of a thousand different ways to fit the square peg in the round hole. Knight would whittle away until that peg fit perfectly (or cuss, break, grab a 12 lb sledge hammer, drill out the round hole, etc.)

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I agree with a lot of what you said, but I have to disagree on us not being a top 10 team talent wise. We don't get the highest ranked kids and we don't pull down top 5-10 recruiting classes, but I think if you gave this squad to an Izzo or a Coach K they'd have them competing for a national championship. We have a lot of nice puzzle pieces right now but they're not being put in the right spots. Not even close. 

I'm jealous you got to watch Coach Knight's teams growing up. That's one thing I wish I could've had the chance to do. 


Oh they can play ball. No doubt. I'd say top 20 talent without question. Again, I feel the need to be realistic though. Wisconsin and Louisville just proved where TB really is...proved OG isn't there yet....Proved Blackmon can't do everything....proved Rojo really is just a high 3 star doing high 3 star things. Proved Cujo and Green are not better than Newkirk...at all....yet. Don't get me wrong, I totally agree 100% that coaching is directly responsible for our slipping record but I'm just afraid that...well, maybe those early wins were the anomaly and not the norm. Hope not. I think they can pull it together.


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4 minutes ago, cappymo14 said:


Oh they can play ball. No doubt. I'd say top 20 talent without question. Again, I feel the need to be realistic though. Wisconsin and Louisville just proved where TB really is...proved OG isn't there yet....Proved Blackmon can't do everything....proved Rojo really is just a high 3 star doing high 3 star things. Proved Cujo and Green are not better than Newkirk...at all....yet. Don't get me wrong, I totally agree 100% that coaching is directly responsible for our slipping record but I'm just afraid that...well, maybe those early wins were the anomaly and not the norm. Hope not. I think they can pull it together.


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TB's been the biggest disappointment for me this year. He looks like a shell of his freshman year self out there sometimes. I hope he manages to get it together. I'd like to see some more TB/Davis lineups but the way Bryant's been playing lately I'd rather just stick with Davis.  I think we all expected a little too much from OG this year because of the flashes of brilliance he showed last season. He's a very good player, and some of it could be lingering effects from his ankle injury, but right now he's not quite where we expected him to be. If he stays another year I think he could take a massive, Oladipo-esque, leap. I'm optimistic that our guys will step up and right the ship. We should know within the next 2-3 weeks whether this season will be salvaged or if this thing is going up in flames. 

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