IU’s basketball culture is dead (and the case for why our next coach should be given 6+ seasons)

[hoopsta007]

2 hours ago, AH1971 said:

We had to overpay to get an unproven coach in DeVries. You're nuts if you think a top flight coach is coming here, money be damned. Another post that shows how out of touch with reality this fan base can be at times.

Overpaying on an unproven coach shows exactly why we are in the mess that we are.  So, where should our expectations need to be?  We have a top tier NIL budget, we have better fan support and history than almost any other school.  Should we not expect to be able to hire a top half of the conference coach?  Is that asking too much?

[Pagoda]

8 minutes ago, pumpfake said:

On one hand, I don't like "tearing up those records...", but seeing how others like UNC operated, I can see it.

Brand & Herbert, Greenspan and the next guy - we were doomed.

Very fair.  It sounds bad, and it is to some extent.  But the calls happened and we faced a choice.  I guess it's just such a minor offense I can see a rationale to not blow up the program for three to four years over it.

And once again, I'll note that Kelvin was being an idiot.

Oh well, no changing it now!  It's just such an interesting case study I can't help but post about it.

[Magnanimous]

1 minute ago, hoopsta007 said:

Overpaying on an unproven coach shows exactly why we are in the mess that we are.  So, where should our expectations need to be?  We have a top tier NIL budget, we have better fan support and history than almost any other school.  Should we not expect to be able to hire a top half of the conference coach?  Is that asking too much?

To reiterate the point made in my original post that no one read haha, why would a coach already having that level of success want to come here? Clearly our willingness to spend isn’t doing the trick.

[Pagoda]

I don't think we can hire a top proven P4 coach -- as in someone running a top-15 program. 

Kentucky couldn't with the giant NIL budget they promised.  Oats, Drew, Hurley and probably others passed before they hired Pope.  We obviously just hired CDD. 

It's just very hard to shake lose top P4 coaches.  You've got to ID the lower level guys who can do the job, as they're the only people you can hire.

[AH1971]

3 minutes ago, Pagoda said:

Very fair.  It sounds bad, and it is to some extent.  But the calls happened and we faced a choice.  I guess it's just such a minor offense I can see a rationale to not blow up the program for three to four years over it.

And once again, I'll note that Kelvin was being an idiot.

Oh well, no changing it now!  It's just such an interesting case study I can't help but post about it.

It wasn't just the "calls". It was the habitual pattern of repeating said behavior while being punished for said behavior. And without any regard. It was the constant lying to IU officials and NCAA investigators. Habitual offenders are the most likely to repeat. He wasn't here even two full years. 

[ronzo4IU]

43 minutes ago, Golfman25 said:

Missing the point.  It's not about replicating Cig's results.  Cig has certain characteristics that all winning coaches have.  You just have to model those characteristics on your hires.  Obviously your not going to duplicate Cig and what it did an a record short time, but you can find coaches like him.

Just off the top of my head, here's the Cig model:

1) Self Assurance (politically correct term for arrogance, cockiness, etc.)  Cig checks this box.  

2) Will to prepare to win --   Nobody is going to out work Cig.  

3) Has a vision and can communicate it -- Fast, Physical, Relentless.  

4) Has High expectations -- with everything around the program.  From players to the freaking carpeting in the offices.  

5) Process driven -- results are due to the process.  It's multiplication, not addition.  That's how you take some stars and win championships.  

Cig is a 5+ in all of the above.  Bob Knight would get high scores in all of the above. 

Woodson was an epic failure in #2, weak in #5, talked a game in #4, but didn't produce.

Archie, 3 and below at best in all of them. 

Now, where is CDDv?  I'm not sure -- jury is still out.  

Good post.  And I think this is just exactly where we are at.  We can speculate until the cows come home but I'm pretty sure Dolson was thinking that CDD had many of these same traits when he hired him.  Different personality, but time will tell.  We are always going to get an up and commer like Travis Steele or say Alan Huss etc..., but do they have many of these intangibles or at least enough to build on?  2nd season is prob a good gauge for the projection of the program.  How also is he meshing with high school coaches and recruiting the state?  Crean ended up not doing so well there towards the end.  There is a lot to learn at a job at IU and I think CDD has learned a few major lessons in his first year.  Hiring Carr is a good sign to me that he is taking this next season recruiting serious.  We'll see shortly how this plays out.

[BluegrassHoosier859]

29 minutes ago, str8baller said:

Yea…because we had Crean as coach. Lol… 

 

Also, Cream went to 2 tournaments out of his last 4 years. The exact same as Woody. Where’s this narrative coming from that cream was making the tourney every year?
 

Crean couldn’t beat a zone. Woody couldn’t stop teams that could shoot 3’s. Why keep either??? I feel like I’m taking crazy pills reading this stuff. 

No kidding. I understand only having 2 tourney appearances in the last 10 years has everyone reminiscing on better times but the amount Crean stans we have is wild.

[AH1971]

2 minutes ago, BluegrassHoosier859 said:

No kidding. I understand only having 2 tourney appearances in the last 10 years has everyone reminiscing on better times but the amount Crean stans we have is wild.

How is it wild? Crean basically had two tenures at IU: the first 3 years rebuilding from absolutely nothing without the help of the portal, immediate eligibility, etc and then the 6 year period in which he won the B10 twice and reached the S16 on three different occasions. He missed the tourney after losing 4 starters that won the B10 outright the year prior and in his final year after losing a lottery pick to an ACL injury in early January. And the fanbases/administration said that wasn't good enough. And here we are a decade later where making the tournament is simply a chore. 

[Golfman25]

3 minutes ago, AH1971 said:

How is it wild? Crean basically had two tenures at IU: the first 3 years rebuilding from absolutely nothing without the help of the portal, immediate eligibility, etc and then the 6 year period in which he won the B10 twice and reached the S16 on three different occasions. He missed the tourney after losing 4 starters that won the B10 outright the year prior and in his final year after losing a lottery pick to an ACL injury in early January. And the fanbases/administration said that wasn't good enough. And here we are a decade later where making the tournament is simply a chore. 

I am not sure it was all about the results with Crean though.  I think a lot was projection of where the program was heading.  It looked like he had worn out his welcome with in state recruiting, which at the time was still important.  There was also some behind the scenes office stuff that made people uncomfortable as I recall. 

But regardless, whenever you fire a coach, you need to have an idea who the potential replacement may be.  That has been our failure -- Fire first, then pick up the pieces and start looking for the next guy.    

[AH1971]

5 minutes ago, Golfman25 said:

I am not sure it was all about the results with Crean though.  I think a lot was projection of where the program was heading.  It looked like he had worn out his welcome with in state recruiting, which at the time was still important.  There was also some behind the scenes office stuff that made people uncomfortable as I recall. 

But regardless, whenever you fire a coach, you need to have an idea who the potential replacement may be.  That has been our failure -- Fire first, then pick up the pieces and start looking for the next guy.    

Crean got a raw deal with Anunoby's injury, or else they absolutely would have made the tournament his final year. That would have been 5 in 6 years. There's a good chance James Blackmon Jr doesn't forego his senior year if Crean is retained and along with him you bring back senior Robert Johnson and Juwan Morgan as an upperclassmen to go with some nice young pieces in Justin Smith, DeRon Davis, and Devonte Green. Won't pretend to know what happens that year as it doesn't matter now, but have to think it's better than anything we got from Archie Miller. Had he survived, would have been interesting to see how a team full of guards and shooters would have fared with TJD commanding the middle. Add in the portal a few year later and who knows where Indiana is with Crean today, can't be worse than where we are now.

As far as a plan goes after firing Crean? Who did Glass realistically think he was going to get after firing a coach who had just previously won multiple conference championships? 

[BluegrassHoosier859]

4 minutes ago, AH1971 said:

Crean got a raw deal with Anunoby's injury, or else they absolutely would have made the tournament his final year. That would have been 5 in 6 years. There's a good chance James Blackmon Jr doesn't forego his senior year if Crean is retained and along with him you bring back senior Robert Johnson and Juwan Morgan as an upperclassmen to go with some nice young pieces in Justin Smith, DeRon Davis, and Devonte Green. Won't pretend to know what happens that year as it doesn't matter now, but have to think it's better than anything we got from Archie Miller. Had he survived, would have been interesting to see how a team full of guards and shooters would have fared with TJD commanding the middle. Add in the portal a few year later and who knows where Indiana is with Crean today, can't be worse than where we are now.

As far as a plan goes after firing Crean? Who did Glass realistically think he was going to get after firing a coach who had just previously won multiple conference championships? 

At the time Archie was viewed as a home run hire. The young up and comer with success that was highly sought after from a family of successful coaches. Everyone thought it was a no brainer. It obviously didnt work out but to act like there was no plan after firing crean i think is a bit unfair.

[AH1971]

1 minute ago, BluegrassHoosier859 said:

At the time Archie was viewed as a home run hire. The young up and comer with success that was highly sought after from a family of successful coaches. Everyone thought it was a no brainer. It obviously didnt work out but to act like there was no plan after firing crean i think is a bit unfair.

Except for the people that thought we were hiring Billy Donovan...

I understand Archie's accolades at the time. Firing a coach with multiple conference championships for an up and comer isn't a home run hire or a solid plan. I'm sorry. 

[Pagoda]

14 minutes ago, AH1971 said:

Except for the people that thought we were hiring Billy Donovan...

I understand Archie's accolades at the time. Firing a coach with multiple conference championships for an up and comer isn't a home run hire or a solid plan. I'm sorry. 

The guy who went on to a 15-57 conference record at Georgia wasn’t the answer either.

[BluegrassHoosier859]

6 minutes ago, AH1971 said:

Except for the people that thought we were hiring Billy Donovan...

I understand Archie's accolades at the time. Firing a coach with multiple conference championships for an up and comer isn't a home run hire or a solid plan. I'm sorry. 

Crean deserves a lot of love and appreciation from IU fans for his time here. But it was time to move on. The future of the program wasnt bright as he had really screwed up recruiting towards the end. Not to mention there were off the court issues during his time here that crean lovers forget to mention. It was the right call and his time at UGA proved it. If you think crean deserved to be the coach at iu solely becuase he won multiple (2) conference championships in 9 years unless Billy Donovan or Brad Stephens came knocking then I dont know what to tell you.

[AH1971]

3 minutes ago, Pagoda said:

The guy who went on to a 15-57 conference record at Georgia wasn’t the answer either.

Who cares what he did at Georgia? That's irrelevant to what he did at IU. Mike Woodson won the Eastern Conference regular season in New York, how did that translate here? It doesn't mean anything.

You can't say out of one side of your mouth that making the tournament is the only thing we ask out of IU coaches while saying Crean should have been fired because it was clear he was never going to win a championship here. It's hypocrisy at its finest. 

[AH1971]

1 minute ago, BluegrassHoosier859 said:

Crean deserves a lot of love and appreciation from IU fans for his time here. But it was time to move on. The future of the program wasnt bright as he had really screwed up recruiting towards the end. Not to mention there were off the court issues during his time here that crean lovers forget to mention. It was the right call and his time at UGA proved it. If you think crean deserved to be the coach at iu solely becuase he won multiple (2) conference championships in 9 years unless Billy Donovan or Brad Stephens came knocking then I dont know what to tell you.

I certainly can tell you, look at where IU is today post-Crean. 

[Pagoda]

5 minutes ago, AH1971 said:

Who cares what he did at Georgia? That's irrelevant to what he did at IU. Mike Woodson won the Eastern Conference regular season in New York, how did that translate here? It doesn't mean anything.

You can't say out of one side of your mouth that making the tournament is the only thing we ask out of IU coaches while saying Crean should have been fired because it was clear he was never going to win a championship here. It's hypocrisy at its finest. 

It means he wasn't a very good coach, one could say he was mediocre, and letting him go wasn't a terrible call.  Though I can see the case for keeping him.

I said making the tournament gets you more time.  It did for Tom, he got nine years.  It doesn't mean a lifetime contract.

[AH1971]

3 minutes ago, Pagoda said:

It means he wasn't a very good coach, one could say he was mediocre, and letting him go wasn't a terrible call.  Though I can see the case for keeping him.

I said making the tournament gets you more time.  It did for Tom, he got nine years.  It doesn't mean a lifetime contract.

How many mediocre coaches win the B10 outright twice and make the second week three times in a 5 year span? I’d love to have a mediocre coach right now, wouldn’t you?

[JSHoosier]

Letting Crean go was the right call at the time, even if I still contend it was too late. We couldn't have predicted just how fugly the next two hires would be.

[Home Jersey]

33 minutes ago, AH1971 said:

Except for the people that thought we were hiring Billy Donovan...

I understand Archie's accolades at the time. Firing a coach with multiple conference championships for an up and comer isn't a home run hire or a solid plan. I'm sorry. 

They made Fred Glass fire Crean?