President Whitten - 2024 Faculty No Vote

[HoosierHoopster 7,102]

1 minute ago, Stuhoo said:

This is an incredibly on point post. Brown; U Florida, so, so, so many universities that could have been powder kegs just flat out are not.

That is a leadership issue at IU, at UCLA, at Columbia.

Know your community. Be inquisitive and communicate, pay forward before the **** hits the fan, and don’t change the rules and escalate once it does.

This was my underlying point when starting the thread, it’s bad leadership, it’s playing out publicly. I don’t care for the attempts to make it all about politics, it’s not, that continues to miss the point. Example on personal knowledge, from a Columbia student/friend of my daughter, president of Columbia got school security to track students by their cell phones (which you have to use to enter buildings etc) who were on student  committees or groups at the start, so they could arrest them or ban or suspend them later for showing up at a protest. Absurd, overreactionary, abusive. A university is about the exchange of ideas and learning, and there are many ways to address student (and professors’) protests that do mot involve police tactics, riot gear, arrests, suspensions and expulsions. 

[HoosierAloha 30,068]

The sniper on the rooftop cracks my **** up. The approvals the sniper would need before taking a shot into a crowd rules that objective out for anyone who knows anything about that. Having a few LEOs being able to provide real-time intel as to any movements towards the area is vital in that situation. They probably could have done it with a drone or a spotting scope but people flipping out about that is ignorant to large event security

[HoosierHoopster 7,102]

11 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

Nothing to negotiate over.  The school shouldn't divest because a fraction of a percent of twatty students on campus were throwing a fit.

Whitten was right to do what she did.  There are a whole host of dumbass professors that should be out the door before Pam. 

All you do is engage in silly name calling and empty rationalization with zero knowledge. No, what she did - including setting up an 11th hour secret committee to change the actual rules in place for decades so she could then do things against those rules. No, that is not what a major State University president should do. Your politics blind you. This is where I stop “discussing” things with you, not worth it.

[Stuhoo 81,309]

2 minutes ago, HoosierAloha said:

The sniper on the rooftop cracks my **** up. The approvals the sniper would need before taking a shot into a crowd rules that objective out for anyone who knows anything about that. Having a few LEOs being able to provide real-time intel as to any movements towards the area is vital in that situation. They probably could have done it with a drone or a spotting scope but people flipping out about that is ignorant to large event security

You make the point that I agree with as one of your two options. Yes, the sniper was legally defensible, but a drone was a better way to de-escalate and therefore better serve the community, including the officers on the ground. 

[HoosierAloha 30,068]

Shemaghs are amazing for arid, windy environments or when you want to hide your obvious western features in certain situations


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[AKHoosier 6,959]

2 hours ago, Banksyrules said:

Well my brother knows the students and organizers they reached out to for advice to set Columbia in motion.  Pretty much all the universities students have reached out to Columbia for advice from there. Until now a lot of these have been organized by Jewish organizations.  These events are not a Jewish hate thing. It's a Israeli GOVERNMENT protest. If you need an objective Jewish journalist to clarify the scope I would suggest Katie Halper.   If you need a Jewish activist that can provide deep context and history of what's happening I would suggest Norman Finkelstein. I've met Mr. Finkelstein and he's actually quite a sweet guy who cares deeply about educating everyone about the big scope of the situation we're dealing with.    There's a lot of hard truths to deal in this situation. Layers upon layers. 

However- Just these past few days I'm hearing some things that might altar these protests to the point where the organizations are wondering if it's necessary to stop right now.  I'm being vague here because it's early information and it needs more digging by people who are way smarter than I.  

"From the river to the sea".

That is not a protest against the Israeli government. It's a call for genocide. 

Protesters were barring a Jewish kid from attending class at UCLA. 

Don't white knight for these protestors.

[HoosierAloha 30,068]

I thought the policy was to get approval 48 hours in advance to put up structures on campus and the reason tents are now approved to be up in Dunn Meadow?

It seems like a pretty solid reinforcement of having your voice heard within the rules.

[Banksyrules 4,814]

52 minutes ago, Stuhoo said:

I’m not the least bit worried about being judged. Nothing I have stated is an especially hot take

Hamas headscarfs. Property destruction. Preventing non-participants from access to public areas. Takeover of property. Antisemitism. Failure to adhere to long-established campus rules.

And to those who protest peacefully and without violating the law? Those are the people and values that our heroes fought and died for.

I am also fully confident that this too shall pass, but there will be plenty of suffering along the way. I believe I am old enough to fully grasp that context.

old enough. I'm old enough as well (45). As you know I'm a New Yorker but while my mom went to work I was raised by local jewish grandmothers. This is not a antisemitism thing.  I can relate to hate because I'm hispanic and experienced it. I love IU but during 9/11 I lot of people confused me for being muslim and I'll spare you the stories. Hate in any form is bad. 

However  I think if you dug deeper I think you'll come to find a lot of jewish people aged young to 50 are having a lot of difficult talks right now with their elders. Elders who rightfully so hold on to the past of WW2.  If you want to dig deeper the people I referenced lost parents  or relatives to it and can give you the whole picture.  There's a lot of deeper layers that in my opinion(yes it's only an opinion) that are not being looked at or considered.  

As far as the laws go. We fundamentally are just going to have to disagree on that because quite frankly we always followed exact laws then... you know what.  Certain laws are variable if society dictates to it be. 

Either way thank you for expressing your points. 

[HoosierAloha 30,068]

If I’m the OSC for the respond I’m picking the “sniper” 10/10 times, damn a few people getting hurt hurt over it. It provides me further options should I have to make that awful call. I’m placing a “sniper” up there to protect everyone in that area.

Could you imagine the outrage should something happen to protesters on campus from a third-party actor(s)?

I don’t know the intel they had prior to the response but hopefully they’re deep in it now


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[HoosierHoopster 7,102]

33 minutes ago, HoosierAloha said:

The sniper on the rooftop cracks my **** up. The approvals the sniper would need before taking a shot into a crowd rules that objective out for anyone who knows anything about that. Having a few LEOs being able to provide real-time intel as to any movements towards the area is vital in that situation. They probably could have done it with a drone or a spotting scope but people flipping out about that is ignorant to large event security

Disagree by 100%. There was no justification, whatsoever, for putting snipers on a roof over college kids, and cops with guns in hand make mistakes, you’re setting up the possibility of a shooting with literally no basis for it. It’s incredibly stupid — and has absolutely nothing to do with what a university president should be doing, which again is the point. Bloomington’s mayor would have nothing to do with it, because it was baseless and stupid.

[IUCrazy2 2,446]

39 minutes ago, HoosierHoopster said:

All you do is engage in silly name calling and empty rationalization with zero knowledge. No, what she did - including setting up an 11th hour secret committee to change the actual rules in place for decades so she could then do things against those rules. No, that is not what a major State University president should do. Your politics blind you. This is where I stop “discussing” things with you, not worth it.

Cool, we are never going to agree and I think you have your feewings hurt because Pammy doesn't ask how high when the faculty says jump.  Furthermore, the fact she apparently isn't as far into all of the things that the faculty thinks she should be into as deeply as they feel she should plays a part as well.

If she knew a bunch of people were going to show up in Dunn Meadow with khakis and tiki torches to protest divestment from Israel and made the same call, all the people whining about last minute changes right now would be singing a different tune.  Same goes for the police overwatch and arrests.  It isn't about free speech.  It is about speech the faculty agrees with and believes has the absolute right to be heard and nobody has any right to tell them any differently.  All a power play around politics no matter how much you want to sell it because you don't like your boss.

[Banksyrules 4,814]

11 minutes ago, AKHoosier said:

"From the river to the sea".

That is not a protest against the Israeli government. It's a call for genocide. 

Protesters were barring a Jewish kid from attending class at UCLA. 

Don't white knight for these protestors.

dig deeper or not.  You were led to believe the river to the sea comments were just established but that's been a phrase for a long time. Google how the territories have changed from 1953 to now and you'll realize why that phrase was established.

Genocide.  I don't say this lightly at all because I understand the seriousness of that word. Israel (the government) is committing genocide.  Before you think this started know that Palestine (they would never it admit because of pride) is an open air concentration camp. All you have to do  is look at the International trial that took place and look at the transcript. They detail point by point how it meets that standard but here are a few quick bullet points. 1. Palestine is a population of 50%kids and 20% women----if you look at the horrific details you'll understand why that is. 2. Israel controls Palestines water, electricity and food distribution. 3. no Palestinian (minus designated politicians) is allowed to leave Palestine without the consent of BOTH the Israeli and Egyptian government.  

These are very hard truths to accept because it in a way you might feel this is a personal attack on your ability to process the bigger scope. But know I also had to be wrong to eventually see the whole picture (that get's bigger and bigger and I constantly shift degrees. There are no absolutes). Look deeper or not. That's up to you. 

[Golfman25 5,516]

24 minutes ago, HoosierHoopster said:

Disagree by 100%. There was no justification, whatsoever, for putting snipers on a roof over college kids, and cops with guns in hand make mistakes, you’re setting up the possibility of a shooting with literally no basis for it. It’s incredibly stupid — and has absolutely nothing to do with what a university president should be doing, which again is the point. Bloomington’s mayor would have nothing to do with it, because it was baseless and stupid.

That's ridiculous.  A mass gathering like that is ripe for a mass shooting event from crazed wackos.  The "sniper" can do a lot of things, including protect from that possibility.  Of course, some are going to take it over the top as an "escalation."  

[AKHoosier 6,959]

9 minutes ago, Banksyrules said:

dig deeper or not.  You were led to believe the river to the sea comments were just established but that's been a phrase for a long time. Google how the territories have changed from 1953 to now and you'll realize why that phrase was established.

Genocide.  I don't say this lightly at all because I understand the seriousness of that word. Israel (the government) is committing genocide. 

Got this far and stopped. 

90% chance you typed this while wearing an N95 mask on a college campus somewhere. 

[Golfman25 5,516]

11 minutes ago, Banksyrules said:

dig deeper or not.  You were led to believe the river to the sea comments were just established but that's been a phrase for a long time. Google how the territories have changed from 1953 to now and you'll realize why that phrase was established.

Genocide.  I don't say this lightly at all because I understand the seriousness of that word. Israel (the government) is committing genocide.  Before you think this started know that Palestine (they would never it admit because of pride) is an open air concentration camp. All you have to do  is look at the International trial that took place and look at the transcript. They detail point by point how it meets that standard but here are a few quick bullet points. 1. Palestine is a population of 50%kids and 20% women----if you look at the horrific details you'll understand why that is. 2. Israel controls Palestines water, electricity and food distribution. 3. no Palestinian (minus designated politicians) is allowed to leave Palestine without the consent of BOTH the Israeli and Egyptian government.  

These are very hard truths to accept because it in a way you might feel this is a personal attack on your ability to process the bigger scope. But know I also had to be wrong to eventually see the whole picture (that get's bigger and bigger and I constantly shift degrees. There are no absolutes). Look deeper or not. That's up to you. 

Not going to go into all the history, but this much is clear.  After the UN established Israel, certain groups chose war over peace.  It goes from there.  

[Golfman25 5,516]

21 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

Cool, we are never going to agree and I think you have your feewings hurt because Pammy doesn't ask how high when the faculty says jump.  Furthermore, the fact she apparently isn't as far into all of the things that the faculty thinks she should be into as deeply as they feel she should plays a part as well.

If she knew a bunch of people were going to show up in Dunn Meadow with khakis and tiki torches to protest divestment from Israel and made the same call, all the people whining about last minute changes right now would be singing a different tune.  Same goes for the police overwatch and arrests.  It isn't about free speech.  It is about speech the faculty agrees with and believes has the absolute right to be heard and nobody has any right to tell them any differently.  All a power play around politics no matter how much you want to sell it because you don't like your boss.

This 100% right there.  University administrators are between a rock and a hard place.  It starts with all the keep students safe from "hate speech."  That makes administrators take actions that they may otherwise not take depending on their view of the First Amd.  

[Banksyrules 4,814]

16 minutes ago, AKHoosier said:

Got this far and stopped. 

90% chance you typed this while wearing an N95 mask on a college campus somewhere. 

Dude you'd be surprised how much I agree with you and at times I don't. To give you context so called "liberals" call me maga. and so called conservatives call me a s&^t lib.

My mom worked for the government and I moved all around the country and world. There are benefits and harm to that.  One benefit was that I never really got attached to any group of people to believe any certain type of way.  Don't generalize people man. We never move forward that way. 

Just know though that even though you might hate me (don't think you do just saying) I would be right there to help you out if I'm able to if you were in trouble.  

I will also add that if you have good information,  I don't care if you think I'm this or that, I'll take the information and try to be as fair as  I can and try to see it through your perspective.  

[IUCrazy2 2,446]

7 minutes ago, Banksyrules said:

Dude you'd be surprised how much I agree with you and at times I don't. To give you context so called "liberals" call me maga. and so called conservatives call me a s&^t lib.

My mom worked for the government and I moved all around the country and world. There are benefits and harm to that.  One benefit was that I never really got attached to any group of people to believe any certain type of way.  Don't generalize people man. We never move forward that way. 

Just know though that even though you might hate me (don't think you do just saying) I would be right there to help you out if I'm able to if you were in trouble.  

I think the issue surrounds you cherry picking some things to try and make a both sides argument.  The Palestinians were offered a state and like 96% of their land requests on 2 separate occasions since the late 90's and early 2000's.  They rejected both.  Why?  Well because the "from the river to the sea" idea is one that has permeated that area since 1948.  The Arabs and forefathers of the Palestinians couldn't stand the idea of splitting Trans-Jordan with Jews.  So they attacked them.  And lost.  The Palestinians and the "naqba" were a consequence of them leaving their homes at the behest of the attacking Arab coalition because they were told to move so the Arab coalition could steamroller the Jews and they could come back and have their land.  The Arabs that stayed are Israeli citizens with representation in the government and on the Israeli Supreme Court.

After the 1948 war the West Bank was administered by Jordan and Gaza was administered by Egypt.  The whole "river to the sea" bug struck them again in 1967 and they lost again.  And the territory.  And Egypt and Jordan have rejected taking that territory back because A)the Palestinians have been assholes wherever they have gone whether that be starting a civil war in Lebanon or trying to kill the ruler of Jordan and B)they make a good foil to have for the Arabs in the region.  "Don't mind us, look over there...."

The Israelis dismantled settlements in Gaza and handed the territory to the Palestinians to administer in 2005.  They elected Hamas and built a terror base for 19 years.

It isn't that we don't understand.  For the Palestinians it probably does suck but their plight is 100% because of the choices their parents, grandparents, and leaders have made over the past 80 years.  And they still cling to the idea of "river to the sea" where genocide is A-okay as long as they are on the winning side.  The worst thing for Islamists is losing face and Israel is a great big middle finger to their ineptitude right in the middle of all of them.  And THAT is the reason for the animosity.

[Banksyrules 4,814]

26 minutes ago, Golfman25 said:

Not going to go into all the history, but this much is clear.  After the UN established Israel, certain groups chose war over peace.  It goes from there.  

Again just google the land distribution from 1953-2024. Yes a line was established and with written word what the % of land was to be distributed. Google the map distribution and then it will raise more questions for you. You gotta go into the history because you can't just pick a side and presume it's justified here or there.  There are big layers to this thing and there's a lot details I see that most of this board is not privy to.  Unless you dig deeper.  

[Banksyrules 4,814]

26 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

I think the issue surrounds you cherry picking some things to try and make a both sides argument.  The Palestinians were offered a state and like 96% of their land requests on 2 separate occasions since the late 90's and early 2000's.  They rejected both.  Why?  Well because the "from the river to the sea" idea is one that has permeated that area since 1948. 

Again not trying to cherry pick but you gotta look at so called attachments were conditioned with those. Look up what Finkelstein says about this.  Guys you do know that there's a good segment from Israel citizens who are protesting also right? I'm not cherry picking I'm just looking at the entire scope of it. 

Believe me when I say this I never TRY to  pick sides. If the roles were reversed I'd be calling out the Palestinians. The balance is , as of now, completely one sided ( resources , military positioning , prisoners, mainstream media ).