How does the crow taste?

[HoosierHoopster 7,467]

47 minutes ago, HoosierAloha said:

The team has done some good things in the last 5 games. How they won a few of those games, especially on the road against Ill, was pretty impressive. I'm not sure the quality of all those teams but taking care of business is progress. There are still things that are concerning during that stretch.

Elite programs don't have the stretch we had in that fashion. I get it that we're attempting to build towards that. Year after year with this core group we've seen them tuck tail for good chunks of games/multiple games. A baseline of competing at a certain level is getting over that hump. Losing happens, it sucks but it happens, I'd much prefer a team know they're going to have to earn it. We've given a couple of games away this season. Not giving games away is part of getting over that hump.

Virtually any and all programs that lose their starting, veteran point guard and 4 have and will go on bad stretches. We lost both, then we suffered badly. It’s just a cop out to say oh those are excuses, or just elite teams don’t have such ignores what we were dealing with.
On the other hand, I agree we’re still building back to playing at a consistently high level (and having to adjust to losing key players impacts that, but we weren’t playing very well when Race went down) and the core group is the same as last year except for JHS and Malik and the subtraction of Parker (addition, also the insistence on starting and playing a veteran heavy minutes no matter what), and yeah 3 or so years under CAM is still evident, but we looked and played like a legit contender in that 3-game winning stretch, and not many, even really good IU teams have gone into Ill and won like that. Tonight and the PU game will show us a lot as to where we are now as a team, but there’s still a lot of games to play regardless and it’s where we end up, not any 1, 2 or 3 games that will ultimately tell the story of this season

[HoosierAloha 30,090]

3 hours ago, Uspshoosier said:

Not sure how many times he has had a 3 games losing streak but I know in years past even with final 4 caliber teams he has  lost to bottom dweller Big 12 teams.  It happens. Can’t expect to play flawless basketball for 30 games.  One year that stacked up Wisky team that went to back to back final 4s lost at Rutgers for one of their 2 losses in conference that year.   Rutgers was terrible that year.   It happens 

IU’s fans more then other fan bases worry more about who the loss is to then the actual loss itself.  It’s fascinating to follow sometimes 

The teams we lost to were used more for comparison. We could have used kenpom/rankings/NET or anything else. The point was they lost to good to great teams while we lost to teams that were not that great and I believe several that had been struggling.

Speaks to my point, when we get there and "struggle" by losing a single game to a bad team it won't matter in the big picture. When we're scratching and clawing to just make the tourney it matters. Losing a game, here and there, isn't a big deal. Consistently playing with poor effort, focus, and rudderless makes a difference too.

[HoosierAloha 30,090]

2 hours ago, HoosierHoopster said:

Virtually any and all programs that lose their starting, veteran point guard and 4 have and will go on bad stretches. We lost both, then we suffered badly. It’s just a cop out to say oh those are excuses, or just elite teams don’t have such ignores what we were dealing with.
On the other hand, I agree we’re still building back to playing at a consistently high level (and having to adjust to losing key players impacts that, but we weren’t playing very well when Race went down) and the core group is the same as last year except for JHS and Malik and the subtraction of Parker (addition, also the insistence on starting and playing a veteran heavy minutes no matter what), and yeah 3 or so years under CAM is still evident, but we looked and played like a legit contender in that 3-game winning stretch, and not many, even really good IU teams have gone into Ill and won like that. Tonight and the PU game will show us a lot as to where we are now as a team, but there’s still a lot of games to play regardless and it’s where we end up, not any 1, 2 or 3 games that will ultimately tell the story of this season

Excellent point. the signs were there that we were going to struggle before Race went down. Is it a coincidence that we've had some struggles since he's been back? I'm sure it's just the team readjusting to having him back.

[Uspshoosier 49,152]

14 minutes ago, HoosierAloha said:

The teams we lost to were used more for comparison. We could have used kenpom/rankings/NET or anything else. The point was they lost to good to great teams while we lost to teams that were not that great and I believe several that had been struggling.

Speaks to my point, when we get there and "struggle" by losing a single game to a bad team it won't matter in the big picture. When we're scratching and clawing to just make the tourney it matters. Losing a game, here and there, isn't a big deal. Consistently playing with poor effort, focus, and rudderless makes a difference too.

Depends on each individual persons definition of a bad team I guess.   Of course IU fans are going to call any home loss to a team with Northwestern across their chest a bad loss.   They are not going to care that they are a projected tourney team and currently a second place B1G team all they care about is the name of the team IU lost to.   If it was a name brand team and lost by 1 it wouldn’t have bothered some as much.   Comparing a program with 7 straight losing conference records to the program that probably has had the most success for any college basketball team in that same period is something that I personally wouldn’t do but that’s just me.    

[HoosierAloha 30,090]

22 minutes ago, HoosierAloha said:

The teams we lost to were used more for comparison. We could have used kenpom/rankings/NET or anything else. The point was they lost to good to great teams while we lost to teams that were not that great and I believe several that had been struggling.

Speaks to my point, when we get there and "struggle" by losing a single game to a bad team it won't matter in the big picture. When we're scratching and clawing to just make the tourney it matters. Losing a game, here and there, isn't a big deal. Consistently playing with poor effort, focus, and rudderless makes a difference too.

 

8 minutes ago, Uspshoosier said:

Depends on each individual persons definition of a bad team I guess.   Of course IU fans are going to call any home loss to a team with Northwestern across their chest a bad loss.   They are not going to care that they are a projected tourney team and currently a second place B1G team all they care about is the name of the team IU lost to.   If it was a name brand team and lost by 1 it wouldn’t have bothered some as much.   Comparing a program with 7 straight losing conference records to the program that probably has had the most success for any college basketball team in that same period is something that I personally wouldn’t do but that’s just me.    

I don't believe I called Northwestern a bad team in this case. I don't think they were setting the world on fire when we played them? Had an ugly loss or two around the time we played them, if I'm remembering correctly. Regardless of the name on the jersey, IU had no business losing that game. It was a close game after IU slept walk for the first ~38 minutes of that game.

That level is what we once were and where we should aspire to be. Instead we excuse the absolute **** of any shortcomings of this program blaming it on any and everything that limits our success. We have more talent compared to our wins. The Big 1.o is down this season and we pissed opportunities away because we were all up in our feels.

[Uspshoosier 49,152]

18 minutes ago, HoosierAloha said:

That level is what we once were and where we should aspire to be. Instead we excuse the absolute **** of any shortcomings of this program blaming it on any and everything that limits our success.

Haven’t been that level for 20 years.  At some point you are what you are.  No excuses here just results that show IU isn’t near that level.   Depends how people look at it.   Some can say others make excuses for the program’s shortcomings.  Others can say that some fans are holding onto a past that isn’t there and hasn’t been there for 20 years.    What’s worse the fan who makes excuses for a mediocre program being mediocre or the fan who sees that results over the last 20 years and still compares them to the elite programs year in and year out without the results?   Neither are worse in my opinion just different ways people cope with being invested in a program not near the top of the mountain anymore 

[HoosierAloha 30,090]

6 minutes ago, Uspshoosier said:

Haven’t been that level for 20 years.  At some point you are what you are.  No excuses here just results that show IU isn’t near that level.   Depends how people look at it.   Some can say others make excuses for the program’s shortcomings.  Others can say that some fans are holding onto a past that isn’t there and hasn’t been there for 20 years.    What’s worse the fan who makes excuses for a mediocre program being mediocre or the fan who sees that results over the last 20 years and still compares them to the elite programs year in and year out without the results?   Neither are worse in my opinion just different ways people cope with being invested in a program not near the top of the mountain anymore 

We have a long way to go before there is even a foundation established. The only reason we are where we are is because IU can still draw talent which is a doubled edged sword as discussed previously. That's something that should have been set early on and built upon.

[bigrod 2,919]

One thing about this team that is hard for me to wrap my head around is the seemingly bipolar way they operate. Outside of TJD, there is really no one that can be counted on game in/out. It's like a lot of the players have never grown out of that freshman mentality.

As a coach, you have to keep substituting until you find the guy with the hot hand for this game, with the knowledge that they won't be there for the next. Just a strange team, in my opinion.

Maybe it truly is just the talent level, but how can we have so many players that were overrated on the same team? It doesn't pass the logic test.

[str8baller 6,210]

25 minutes ago, bigrod said:

As a coach, you have to keep substituting until you find the guy with the hot hand for this game, with the knowledge that they won't be there for the next. 

And unfortunately, we run out of options real quick. JHS was playing poorly and Race did nothing, but the starters had a lead. Insert Bates and Reneau and the clown show on defense and turnovers begin. Where do you go at that point? X is out. Geronimo is out. We tried Banks but not much happened there. That’s about it, unless you want to give Gunn and his 25% FG shooting a go.   
 

I don’t think injuries had a lot to do with our slow  Dec, but lots of teams don’t round into shape early. I do think injuries are taking their toll now. Last night is probably much different if XJ and Geronimo are there. We’re just kind of snakebitten this year. I actually feel bad for TJD. 

[Alford Bailey 12,719]

Many still under value the loss of X. Not many if any teams can perform to expectations losing their veteran PG.

[southsidehoosier 5,124]

1 minute ago, Alford Bailey said:

Many still under value the loss of X. Not many if any teams can perform to expectations losing their veteran PG.

It's impressive we've had our longest B1G winning streak since 2015-16 with the injuries we've had to XJ, Race and now Geronimo

[TheWatShot 14,764]

2 hours ago, bigrod said:

Maybe it truly is just the talent level, but how can we have so many players that were overrated on the same team? It doesn't pass the logic test.

I still think some of our fans overvalue the "talent" on this team. I think it's a product of the IU hype machine combined with wishful thinking. 

[HoosierAloha 30,090]

10 minutes ago, TheWatShot said:

I still think some of our fans overvalue the "talent" on this team. I think it's a product of the IU hype machine combined with wishful thinking. 

Hard work beats talent when talent refuses to work hard or something like that.

It takes a system, culture, leadership to realize that potential talent. We seem to be lacking in some areas.

[IUCrazy2 2,589]

2 hours ago, TheWatShot said:

I still think some of our fans overvalue the "talent" on this team. I think it's a product of the IU hype machine combined with wishful thinking. 

If the fans overvalued it, so do the talent evaluators before they get to Indiana.  They can't all be in on the hype machine too can they?

You can go to the 247 site and get a rundown of where each team fell in recruiting rankings in comparison to the rest of their conference going back to 2011 IIRC.  Indiana is consistently a program getting among the best talent in the league.  Why that hasn't paid off is a fight you see on every Indiana forum, however, the fans have a reason to believe we have talent in comparison to the rest of the BIG.

[RaceToTheTop 27,789]

5 hours ago, IUCrazy2 said:

If the fans overvalued it, so do the talent evaluators before they get to Indiana.  They can't all be in on the hype machine too can they?

You can go to the 247 site and get a rundown of where each team fell in recruiting rankings in comparison to the rest of their conference going back to 2011 IIRC.  Indiana is consistently a program getting among the best talent in the league.  Why that hasn't paid off is a fight you see on every Indiana forum, however, the fans have a reason to believe we have talent in comparison to the rest of the BIG.

IU's last four classes were 52, 15, 39 and 10.  In the Big Ten, the last four classes were 6th, 2nd, 7th, and 2nd.  The class that was 15th nationally and 2nd in the Big Ten was headlined by Khristain Lander.  

One five star player leading a class that turns out to be incredibly overrated distorts the actually talent of that class.  The 2020 class that contained Lander (27th), Geronimo (105th), Leal (156th) and Galloway (157th) was middle of the Big Ten if Lander was properly rated.  Truth being that Lander was really a non-top 200 hundred three star means IU had a class of no top 100 players and only one top 150.

So I wouldn't say that IU has been consistently lately getting the 'best talent in the league'.  Basically this year was the only time. 

[Uspshoosier 49,152]

13 minutes ago, RaceToTheTop said:

IU's last four classes were 52, 15, 39 and 10.  In the Big Ten, the last four classes were 6th, 2nd, 7th, and 2nd.  The class that was 15th nationally and 2nd in the Big Ten was headlined by Khristain Lander.  

One five star player leading a class that turns out to be incredibly overrated distorts the actually talent of that class.  The 2020 class that contained Lander (27th), Geronimo (105th), Leal (156th) and Galloway (157th) was middle of the Big Ten if Lander was properly rated.  Truth being that Lander was really a non-top 200 hundred three star means IU had a class of no top 100 players and only one top 150.

So I wouldn't say that IU has been consistently lately getting the 'best talent in the league'.  Basically this year was the only time. 

That covid period of recruiting did some damage on coaches and talent evaluators.   Not being able to see these kids live during the evaluation periods cause a ton of misses.   

[coonhounds 9,862]

Most concerning to me but not mentioned much but why would a player only meeting garner a turnaround. Tell me what could possibly be talked about to say hey maybe we better try harder? I will wait and eat my crow hopefully later. As of now we're better off then i would have guessed after Penn st game but not quite where we should be. Saturday will be a sign of which wY these guys are going to go. If we lose though we have to wait till next game to see if their giving up again lol. We never know

Sent from my SM-A326U using Tapatalk

[RaceToTheTop 27,789]

10 hours ago, TheWatShot said:

I still think some of our fans overvalue the "talent" on this team. I think it's a product of the IU hype machine combined with wishful thinking. 

I would say that's common among college basketball teams regardless of their team. 

[HoosierAloha 30,090]

10 hours ago, TheWatShot said:

I still think some of our fans overvalue the "talent" on this team. I think it's a product of the IU hype machine combined with wishful thinking. 

Just a quick search to compare a few Big 1.o teams for funsies.

IU

Rutger

Iowa

Northwestern

Penn State

Maryland

[IUCrazy2 2,589]

12 hours ago, RaceToTheTop said:

IU's last four classes were 52, 15, 39 and 10.  In the Big Ten, the last four classes were 6th, 2nd, 7th, and 2nd.  The class that was 15th nationally and 2nd in the Big Ten was headlined by Khristain Lander.  

One five star player leading a class that turns out to be incredibly overrated distorts the actually talent of that class.  The 2020 class that contained Lander (27th), Geronimo (105th), Leal (156th) and Galloway (157th) was middle of the Big Ten if Lander was properly rated.  Truth being that Lander was really a non-top 200 hundred three star means IU had a class of no top 100 players and only one top 150.

So I wouldn't say that IU has been consistently lately getting the 'best talent in the league'.  Basically this year was the only time. 

You picked one class.  HoosierAloha has a pretty good comparison for several of the teams.  Michigan State, Illinois, Ohio State, and Michigan are probably the only 3 teams in the league who consistently come close (or exceed in case of MSU) to our on paper recruiting.  Do we have Misses?  Yeah, so does everyone else.  Did COVID impact ratings?  Possibly, but that would impact everyone, not just Indiana.

The truth of the matter is that we land quite a bit of talent.  Geronimo, Leal, and Galloway would be considered a good to great class for all but a few teams in the league and you are downplaying them.  That's the point.