How far away is IUBB from being elite again?

[Golfman25]

15 minutes ago, kreigh8 said:

Didn't most players also stick around for 4 years in whatever time frame you're referring too? If you're worth a crap and playing at the level at IU or "elite programs", you're a rare breed for a guy to stick around that long today from what I've seen. Maybe NIL will change that a bit, but I doubt it

That they did.  And roster stability is still important to be a succesful program.  This is where your "system" and philophy come in.  It's not neccesarily about finding the best players, but finding the right players.  It's about taking that talent and using inside a system for the betterment of the team.  

[str8baller]

1 hour ago, IU Scott said:

Coach K, Dean Smith, John Wooden took at least 4 years before they had success. At Duke they almost fired coach K after his third year.

A couple of them started out when freshman were ineligible. I’m not sure that’s real applicable to today’s landscape.  Also, we know Wooden didn’t develop anything that turned his program around but an affection for Sam Gilbert.    
 

I’ve never figured out where the Coach K stuff came from. Maybe it’s a folksy quip he likes to tell at alumni functions.The problem is that it is almost entirely untrue.* The fans and alumni were antsy but his AD wasn’t going to fire him. 
 

 Coach K was 3rd in the ACC his 4th year and made the tournament when they only took 32 teams. And in his 3rd year—when all the fans/alumni were mad— he had already recruited the class that would take him to his first title game in what was only his 6th year.  
 

Coach K came out of the gate strong despite a couple of rebuilding seasons and didn’t look back. And if he had any naysayers along the way, he was still the 30-something wunderkind and protégé of his former coach and current toast of the college coaching world….RMK. You’d think an administration might give a guy like that a little time to develop. They would, but he didn’t really need it.  
 

If IU lands the next coach K, it won’t take said coach 6-8 years of building up recruiting and mini-milestones of proving we’re worthy. He’ll be  working on landing the class that takes us back final four on day 1. 
 

 

* here’s the article. Coach K was almost fired… But somehow got a contract extension instead. /s https://www.wsj.com/articles/mike-krzyzewski-duke-north-carolina-11649079772
 

[IU Scott]

33 minutes ago, kreigh8 said:

Didn't most players also stick around for 4 years in whatever time frame you're referring too? If you're worth a crap and playing at the level at IU or "elite programs", you're a rare breed for a guy to stick around that long today from what I've seen. Maybe NIL will change that a bit, but I doubt it

Isaiah Thomas left after his sophomore year and said the only reason he did was his family was living in extreme poverty. Besides him George McGinnis was the only guy to leave early for the pros

[Uspshoosier]

1 minute ago, IU Scott said:

Isaiah Thomas left after his sophomore year and said the only reason he did was his family was living in extreme poverty. Besides him George McGinnis was the only guy to leave early for the pros

Jay Edwards left early as well 

[IU Scott]

17 minutes ago, kreigh8 said:

Archie brought in Phinisee, Lander, TJD, Franklin, Jerome Hunter (OH), Forester (OH), Damezi Anderson, Leal and Galloway.

Woodson has brought in Reneau from FL and JHS from PA who are going to be better basketball players than the entire lot above.

Does that still work?

Maybe if he would have brought in Smith, Furst and Kaufman he might have been better off. Told everyone he needed to get Aaron Henry over Anderson and Hunter

[IU Scott]

18 minutes ago, str8baller said:

A couple of them started out when freshman were ineligible. I’m not sure that’s real applicable to today’s landscape.  Also, we know Wooden didn’t develop anything that turned his program around but an affection for Sam Gilbert.    
 

I’ve never figured out where the Coach K stuff came from. Maybe it’s a folksy quip he likes to tell at alumni functions.The problem is that it is almost entirely untrue.* The fans and alumni were antsy but his AD wasn’t going to fire him. 
 

 Coach K was 3rd in the ACC his 4th year and made the tournament when they only took 32 teams. And in his 3rd year—when all the fans/alumni were mad— he had already recruited the class that would take him to his first title game in what was only his 6th year.  
 

Coach K came out of the gate strong despite a couple of rebuilding seasons and didn’t look back. And if he had any naysayers along the way, he was still the 30-something wunderkind and protégé of his former coach and current toast of the college coaching world….RMK. You’d think an administration might give a guy like that a little time to develop. They would, but he didn’t really need it.  
 

If IU lands the next coach K, it won’t take said coach 6-8 years of building up recruiting and mini-milestones of proving we’re worthy. He’ll be  working on landing the class that takes us back final four on day 1. 
 

 

* here’s the article. Coach K was almost fired… But somehow got a contract extension instead. /s https://www.wsj.com/articles/mike-krzyzewski-duke-north-carolina-11649079772
 

It was after his third year and there were petition for his removal. Read it in a book by Feinstein about the ACC and a 30 for 30

[kreigh8]

1 minute ago, Uspshoosier said:

Jay Edwards left early as well 

IU instances yes, but Jordan and Hakeem were 3 year players

Just not often you see those guys sticking around that long anymore. If you can play in the league, these guy go now

[str8baller]

2 hours ago, IU Scott said:

Did you see the post I responded to who brought up RMK, Calhoun and Pitino who all started coaching in the 70's and 80's. Before responding please read the post first 

I also responded to Jay Wright and Billy Donovan. But pick ‘em…Izzo? Self? Stevens? Same story. It took Bennett a whopping 5 years to get them to their current standard (30 wins/conf title). That’s competing in a conf with Duke and UNC.  
 

Scott Drew is the only guy I can think of that to this elongated route of “jumping up levels.” He’s pretty much the exception that proves the rule.  It just doesn’t happen that coaches grow like that. They can either do it or they can’t.  
 

The dumbest thing this program does is sitting around for 8 years waiting on guys like Mike Davis and Tom Crean to “jump up a level” and become elite. At least the new regime mercifully pulled the trigger on Archie after 4 years. 

[Golfman25]

19 minutes ago, kreigh8 said:

Archie brought in Phinisee, Lander, TJD, Franklin, Jerome Hunter (OH), Forester (OH), Damezi Anderson, Leal and Galloway.

Woodson has brought in Reneau from FL and JHS from PA who are going to be better basketball players than the entire lot above.

Does that still work?

Of that group, only Phinisee, Lander (who was obviously misranked) and TJD would fit my criteria of #1 or #2 player.  

And once you get them on campus, you need to know what to do with them.  Archie clearly had zero clue.  He was in way over his head.  

[IU Scott]

4 minutes ago, Uspshoosier said:

Jay Edwards left early as well 

True, forgot him and heard him say it was a huge mistake. Unless he changed his ways he probably would have trouble staying on the team.

[IU Scott]

2 minutes ago, kreigh8 said:

IU instances yes, but Jordan and Hakeem were 3 year players

Just not often you see those guys sticking around that long anymore. If you can play in the league, these guy go now

Guys like Ewing, Robinson, Sampson, Duncan just to name a few who stayed 4 years. That is the main reason for me that the college game is not as good today.

[Golfman25]

2 minutes ago, kreigh8 said:

IU instances yes, but Jordan and Hakeem were 3 year players

Just not often you see those guys sticking around that long anymore. If you can play in the league, these guy go now

I think you'll see that change with the NIL.  Only the top draft picks will go.  Others will stay and probably make more money.  

[IU Scott]

3 minutes ago, str8baller said:

I also responded to Jay Wright and Billy Donovan. But pick ‘em…Izzo? Self? Stevens? Same story. It took Bennett a whopping 5 years to get them to their current standard (30 wins/conf title). That’s competing in a conf with Duke and UNC.  
 

Scott Drew is the only guy I can think of that to this elongated route of “jumping up levels.” He’s pretty much the exception that proves the rule.  It just doesn’t happen that coaches grow like that. They can either do it or they can’t.  
 

The dumbest thing this program does is sitting around for 8 years waiting on guys like Mike Davis and Tom Crean to “jump up a level” and become elite. At least the new regime mercifully pulled the trigger on Archie after 4 years. 

Probably need to look at Izzo's first couple of years because it wasn't very good

[str8baller]

3 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

It was after his third year and there were petition for his removal. Read it in a book by Feinstein about the ACC and a 30 for 30

Did you read the article? And I just listened to something by Feinstein promoting his coach k book. He tells the same story as the wsj article I linked—the AD was never going to fire coach K. They gave him an extension instead because they knew he was good but the alumni and fans were being idiots not realizing he had to rebuild from bud foster. 
 

Duke was never going to fire K. 

[kreigh8]

2 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Guys like Ewing, Robinson, Sampson, Duncan just to name a few who stayed 4 years. That is the main reason for me that the college game is not as good today.

But it's the reality - might as well adapt. Don't need to throw bags of cash and have stripper poles in the dorm rooms but living in today's world would be a great start. Not saying IU isn't, but thinking about 40 years ago is fruitless in my mind - but perhaps that's just our difference in perspectives

[IU Scott]

Just now, str8baller said:

Did you read the article? And I just listened to something by Feinstein promoting his coach k book. He tells the same story as the wsj article I linked—the AD was never going to fire coach K. They gave him an extension instead because they knew he was good but the alumni and fans were being idiots not realizing he had to rebuild from bud foster. 
 

Duke was never going to fire K. 

It wasn't a coach K book but about the ACC and it's history. Saw it on TV as well. Never said the AD wanted to fire him but the fans. Why I always bring this up to our fans wanting our coach fired after a year or two.

[str8baller]

2 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Probably need to look at Izzo's first couple of years because it wasn't very good

He won the conf and went to S16 in his third year. He hit his career win% on the nose in his third season. FF in his 4th. National title in his fifth.   
 

You can google this same as me. 

[IU Scott]

7 minutes ago, str8baller said:

He won the conf and went to S16 in his third year. He hit his career win% on the nose in his third season. FF in his 4th. National title in his fifth.   
 

You can google this same as me. 

Said a couple of years, do you know what a couple is. You said he started out great right away and didn't have a transition period. 

Year 1 16-16 

Year 2 17-12

[WayneFleekHoosier]

3 of most historic changes that have affected how quickly you can turn a team around have been semi recent developments.

1. 1 n done era. Kentucky and more recently Duke lived on this strategy. Others have tried to varying success.

2. Transfer portal without having to sit a year.

3. NIL

Comparing coaches prior to these changes vs post these changes is literally night and day. 3-4 year rebuilds made sense before these changes. 1-2 year rebuilds are achievable nowadays. I can guarantee you Woodson isn’t viewing this year as a rebuilding year. They expect to compete with this roster. Hopefully they can turn it around/get it on track.

With Woody’s age, we don’t need a rebuild anyway. We need to win big and set up for hopefully a nice 5 year run then have a plan in place to compete at the top. We need NIL to be a step above to regain our footing.

Better players/coaching/scouting/training/gameplanning would help.


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[southernindianahoosier2]

1 hour ago, str8baller said:

I also responded to Jay Wright and Billy Donovan. But pick ‘em…Izzo? Self? Stevens? Same story. It took Bennett a whopping 5 years to get them to their current standard (30 wins/conf title). That’s competing in a conf with Duke and UNC.  
 

Scott Drew is the only guy I can think of that to this elongated route of “jumping up levels.” He’s pretty much the exception that proves the rule.  It just doesn’t happen that coaches grow like that. They can either do it or they can’t.  
 

The dumbest thing this program does is sitting around for 8 years waiting on guys like Mike Davis and Tom Crean to “jump up a level” and become elite. At least the new regime mercifully pulled the trigger on Archie after 4 years. 

Agree... In today's game, you get 4 years as a coach to showcase you're elite or not... I'm not sure what Glass was thinking when he extended Crean. He didn't have a practice schedule. Not sure how many "Elite" Coaches think that is a winning strategy.