Serious Question

[IUFAN1976]

1 hour ago, rcs29 said:

Not sure that's completely fair. They've shown they can persevere under pressure at times this season as well. But that's the main issue is just inconsistency. They are inconsistent from game to game and half to half. It's bizarre really how inconsistent they really are. I put a lot of blame on the 2nd half collapses on Woodson for not making the right adjustments. No I don't know what the right one's would have been and that's why he's paid to coach and I'm not.

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And they are inconsistent for reason.  To me, most fans expectations aren’t realistic and fair.  Yes we are all tired of losing but to just think things will change significantly after 16 games, with a roster with most of the games players were recruited and played for a different with a different system and a different culture, is way too high of expectations. 
 

Trust me, I’ve witnessed the two best teams in IU history, watched the 1981 lose their share of games before Landon Turner decided to get his head out of his behind and play, and not to mention the 87 team lose their share of games before Dean Garrett and Keith Smart finally started to gel with the team chemistry.  Yes, those last two teams had their share of issues, and the primary issue was team chemistry and players accepting their.

I think everyone needs to take a step back and be a little patient with this team and coahes.

[IUFAN1976]

1 hour ago, Uspshoosier said:

Building a winning culture is going to have small victories with little change each time more often then switching a coach and everything starts rolling in my opinion.  Bad habits are hard to break and asking a first year coach to fix upperclassman’s bad habits that they have shown their whole college basketball career is a hard ask for a new coach.  Bringing in new pieces that had obvious bad habits before and from programs that had leas winning cultures then IU has had was always a risk. 
Changing a losing culture and losing mentality is harder then it looks in my opinion.   Doing it year 1 with a new staff and new players is even harder.   Don’t know how the rest of the year turns out but IU has a chance to change the narrative this year compared to the last couple 

This!  Well said!  This is a must read!!!!

[rcbowla]

Curious the examples you're thinking of for this

EMU game they were punched in the mouth and could've collapsed down the stretch but didn't. Same with St. John's. Against Syracuse they bounced back and played really well post 1st half. Against Minnesota the Gophers made a run and IU responded and closed them out. There are examples from my perspective.

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[MikeRoberts]

39 minutes ago, HoosierHoopster said:

Lol, pull up some stats that show we're worse. Go ahead. You can't.  What's the point of discussing? What do you want to prove?

People have posted much more comparable, statistically significant stats, you just don’t want to talk about reality, you would rather post stats that fit your narrative but lack any form of realism. Then you get upset that someone called BS.

again, using stats on a team that played 10 ranked teams vs a team that has played only 1 to show marginal improvement is 100% disingenuous.

 

 

[Uspshoosier]

8 minutes ago, rcs29 said:

EMU game they were punched in the mouth and could've collapsed down the stretch but didn't. Same with St. John's. Against Syracuse they bounced back and played really well post 1st half. Against Minnesota the Gophers made a run and IU responded and closed them out. There are examples from my perspective.

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Notre Dame game they let the Irish tie the game back up and ended that game on a nice run 

[HoosierHoopster]

Apples to Apply - Conference Play

(can't do apples to apples non-con, because of last year's limited non-con)

Who and by what margin did we lose to through the first 6 games?

2020 Losses: 74-67 (by 7) to that powerhouse, Northwestern; At Ill (69-60); At Wisconsin 80-73.

2021: Losses: At Wisc 64-59 (and we were up big); At PSU 61-58; At Iowa 83-74.

So, we lost at home to NWU in 2020, and each of the 3 losses were by at least 7. 2021: the losses were by 3, 5 and 9.

Yeah, that's obviously better. We're undefeated at home. We've lost by less and were in every game except 2nd half Iowa. We should've won the @Wisc game, and were right in the @PSU game.

What about comparing the W's through the 1st 6 Con games?

2020 Wins: 87-85 over PSU in OT, 63-55 MD,. 84-76 At Neb.

2021 Wins: 68-55 Neb, 67-51 #13 OSU, 73-60 Minn.

So, clearly better home W's as well, through the 1st 6 games. The @Neb game should factor in here, tomorrow. I think the team will step up and get the W, we'll see.

Just FG / 3PT Stats -- 2020 first, 2021 second (conference play):

2020: FG% 46% (162-352); 3PT 33% (41-122)

2021: FG% 43% (149-347); 3PT 36% (39-108)j

So, we shot better inside last year, with the focus of going inside, and 3% points better so far this season, from deep.

What bothers me is that we are still shooting two few from deep, and LESS that last year so far in conference. That was the problem under CAM, and it's still a problem.

But if you guys can't see the above as showing we're overall better, even in Conf play, so far this season, you're just ignoring all of it.

 

 

 

[HoosierHoopster]

10 minutes ago, MikeRoberts said:

People have posted much more comparable, statistically significant stats, you just don’t want to talk about reality, you would rather post stats that fit your narrative but lack any form of realism. Then you get upset that someone called BS.

again, using stats on a team that played 10 ranked teams vs a team that has played only 1 to show marginal improvement is 100% disingenuous.

 

 

Nope, reality is my post above. Look through the stats and who we played, and who we beat and lost too, and then assess whether we're in better shape so far this season. I agree we're only 6 games into conf play, but if you don't agree we're better so far, you're just disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing.

[HoosierAloha]

9 minutes ago, rcs29 said:

EMU game they were punched in the mouth and could've collapsed down the stretch but didn't. Same with St. John's. Against Syracuse they bounced back and played really well post 1st half. Against Minnesota the Gophers made a run and IU responded and closed them out. There are examples from my perspective.

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Yuck, I tried to forget about some of these because of the level of the opponents and where they were played. I guess that's where we are as a program though.

Gave up a big lead to an inferior opponent when basically one dude (Farrahkan?) got going. I guess looking at it from a perspective that we could have easily lost that game but held on.

St. John's, although a better opponent, kind of did the same. Champaigne (sp?) got going and we did everything we could to hold on.

I'm guessing we had a combination of shooting, turnovers, and rebounding issues in these games.

It is a perspective thing though. Yes, we held on but I don't think we should have been sweating it out against an EMU after being up by a lot. The Champaigne thing kind of shines the light on not having a lock down wing defender.

We like to look at being a few plays away from being undefeated. I guess we could look at it and be glad we don't have a few or more really bad losses at home because we held on.

[HoosierHoopster]

2 hours ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

If you take our conference offensive stats this year compared to last year, it’s marginal improvement at best. First is this year, second is last year. Of course, we’re comparing a full conference schedule to only 6 games, but it’s a better comparison than the previous comparison. At least this one is limited to our stats against Big 10 opponents. It kind of lines up with the eye test - our offense doesn’t look that different from last year. FWIW, we were 3-3 through the first 6 conference games last year too. 

Points:  66.5 / 69.4
FG%: 42.9% / 42.6%
2PT%: 48.7% / 47.4%
3PT%: 31%  / 32.9% 
FT%: 68.8% / 67.6% 
Assists:  14.2  / 13.3
TOV: 11.3  / 11.6

Posted this as its own post, but here's the complete con picture on W's and L's, and FG/3PT FG percentage.

Apples to Apply - Conference Play

(can't do apples to apples non-con, because of last year's limited non-con)

Who and by what margin did we lose to through the first 6 games?

2020 Losses: 74-67 (by 7) to that powerhouse, Northwestern; At Ill (69-60); At Wisconsin 80-73.

2021: Losses: At Wisc 64-59 (and we were up big); At PSU 61-58; At Iowa 83-74.

So, we lost at home to NWU in 2020, and each of the 3 losses were by at least 7. 2021: the losses were by 3, 5 and 9.

Yeah, that's obviously better. We're undefeated at home. We've lost by less and were in every game except 2nd half Iowa. We should've won the @Wisc game, and were right in the @PSU game.

What about comparing the W's through the 1st 6 Con games?

2020 Wins: 87-85 over PSU in OT, 63-55 MD,. 84-76 At Neb.

2021 Wins: 68-55 Neb, 67-51 #13 OSU, 73-60 Minn.

So, clearly better home W's as well, through the 1st 6 games. The @Neb game should factor in here, tomorrow. I think the team will step up and get the W, we'll see.

Just FG / 3PT Stats -- 2020 first, 2021 second (conference play):

2020: FG% 46% (162-352); 3PT 33% (41-122)

2021: FG% 43% (149-347); 3PT 36% (39-108)j

So, we shot better inside last year, with the focus of going inside, and 3% points better so far this season, from deep.

What bothers me is that we are still shooting two few from deep, and LESS that last year so far in conference. That was the problem under CAM, and it's still a problem.

But if you guys can't see the above as showing we're overall better, even in Conf play, so far this season, you're just ignoring all of it.

[HoosierAloha]

6 minutes ago, HoosierHoopster said:

Posted this as its own post, but here's the complete non-con picture on W's and L's, and FG/3PT FG percentage.

Apples to Apply - Conference Play

(can't do apples to apples non-con, because of last year's limited non-con)

Who and by what margin did we lose to through the first 6 games?

2020 Losses: 74-67 (by 7) to that powerhouse, Northwestern; At Ill (69-60); At Wisconsin 80-73.

2021: Losses: At Wisc 64-59 (and we were up big); At PSU 61-58; At Iowa 83-74.

So, we lost at home to NWU in 2020, and each of the 3 losses were by at least 7. 2021: the losses were by 3, 5 and 9.

Yeah, that's obviously better. We're undefeated at home. We've lost by less and were in every game except 2nd half Iowa. We should've won the @Wisc game, and were right in the @PSU game.

What about comparing the W's through the 1st 6 Con games?

2020 Wins: 87-85 over PSU in OT, 63-55 MD,. 84-76 At Neb.

2021 Wins: 68-55 Neb, 67-51 #13 OSU, 73-60 Minn.

So, clearly better home W's as well, through the 1st 6 games. The @Neb game should factor in here, tomorrow. I think the team will step up and get the W, we'll see.

Just FG / 3PT Stats -- 2020 first, 2021 second (conference play):

2020: FG% 46% (162-352); 3PT 33% (41-122)

2021: FG% 43% (149-347); 3PT 36% (39-108)j

So, we shot better inside last year, with the focus of going inside, and 3% points better so far this season, from deep.

What bothers me is that we are still shooting two few from deep, and LESS that last year so far in conference. That was the problem under CAM, and it's still a problem.

But if you guys can't see the above as showing we're overall better, even in Conf play, so far this season, you're just ignoring all of it.

Why not include rankings next to the teams from last year? Not arguing your point, yet, just curious if there was a justification for leaving them out.

[HoosierHoopster]

Just now, HoosierAloha said:

Why not include rankings next to the teams from last year? Not arguing your point, yet, just curious if there was a justification for leaving them out.

no justification, you can add them in, it doesn't change things -- home loss to NWU?

[MikeRoberts]

12 minutes ago, HoosierHoopster said:

Nope, reality is my post above. Look through the stats and who we played, and who we beat and lost too, and then assess whether we're in better shape so far this season. I agree we're only 6 games into conf play, but if you don't agree we're better so far, you're just disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing.

Your post above is a way better comparison, 6 bigten games vs 6 bigten games. Defense was the difference maker in our wins this year vs last, our offense is still busted - offensive stats are almost identical this year vs last in conference. 
I still see marginal improvement. Same offense, slightly better defense. I am frustrated that this team isnt performing better, we have the horses to be 16-0. 

[Hoosierfan2017]

2 hours ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

This team is probably better than last year’s team because of the defensive improvements, but how much better? Idk.

 

19 minutes ago, HoosierHoopster said:

Apples to Apply - Conference Play

(can't do apples to apples non-con, because of last year's limited non-con)

Who and by what margin did we lose to through the first 6 games?

2020 Losses: 74-67 (by 7) to that powerhouse, Northwestern; At Ill (69-60); At Wisconsin 80-73.

2021: Losses: At Wisc 64-59 (and we were up big); At PSU 61-58; At Iowa 83-74.

So, we lost at home to NWU in 2020, and each of the 3 losses were by at least 7. 2021: the losses were by 3, 5 and 9.

Yeah, that's obviously better. We're undefeated at home. We've lost by less and were in every game except 2nd half Iowa. We should've won the @Wisc game, and were right in the @PSU game.

What about comparing the W's through the 1st 6 Con games?

2020 Wins: 87-85 over PSU in OT, 63-55 MD,. 84-76 At Neb.

2021 Wins: 68-55 Neb, 67-51 #13 OSU, 73-60 Minn.

So, clearly better home W's as well, through the 1st 6 games. The @Neb game should factor in here, tomorrow. I think the team will step up and get the W, we'll see.

Just FG / 3PT Stats -- 2020 first, 2021 second (conference play):

2020: FG% 46% (162-352); 3PT 33% (41-122)

2021: FG% 43% (149-347); 3PT 36% (39-108)j

So, we shot better inside last year, with the focus of going inside, and 3% points better so far this season, from deep.

What bothers me is that we are still shooting two few from deep, and LESS that last year so far in conference. That was the problem under CAM, and it's still a problem.

But if you guys can't see the above as showing we're overall better, even in Conf play, so far this season, you're just ignoring all of it.

 

 

 

I really have no idea where you’re getting that they’re shooting 36% from 3 during conference play this year. They aren’t. They’re shooting 31% from 3 during conference play this year.

As you can see above, I never said that they’re worse than last year. I said the opposite. We can talk about how we “should’ve won this game” or how we were “right in that game,” but we’re 3-3 in the conference right now. Same place we were last year. Talking about how the losses this year aren’t “as bad” as last year because we lost by 5 points instead of 7 points isn’t what serious programs do. Blowing a 20 point lead against Wisconsin and scoring 17 points in the entire second half was as bad as anything I saw last season. They have 14 more conference games to prove that they’re different from the IU teams of the past 5 years. 

[HoosierHoopster]

Just now, MikeRoberts said:

Your post above is a way better comparison, 6 bigten games vs 6 bigten games. Defense was the difference maker in our wins this year vs last, our offense is still busted - offensive stats are almost identical this year vs last in conference. 
I still see marginal improvement. Same offense, slightly better defense. I am frustrated that this team is performing better, we have the horses to be 16-0. 

I share your frustration on the offense. We're shooting better from outside, but on LESS shots than last year?? That's part of the problem -- we shouldn't be shooting at the bottom of conference now. Point guard play definitely needs to improve, and that's going to take recruiting, imo

[HoosierAloha]

1 minute ago, HoosierHoopster said:

no justification, you can add them in, it doesn't change things -- home loss to NWU?

It could be argued it changes things right? I mean, you add that we were up big at Wiscy this season but lost by 5 while leaving out that we ONLY lost by 7 to a higher ranked Wiscy team last season. I guess this is where we are as a program though, arguing over if we've improved a little or improved from one shitty season to the next.

[Uspshoosier]

Wisky game last year went to 2OT

[HoosierHoopster]

1 minute ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

 

I really have no idea where you’re getting that they’re shooting 36% from 3 during conference play this year. They aren’t. They’re shooting 31% from 3 during conference play this year.

As you can see above, I never said that they’re worse than last year. I said the opposite. We can talk about how we “should’ve won this game” or how we were “right in that game,” but we’re 3-3 in the conference right now. Same place we were last year. Talking about how the losses this year aren’t “as bad” as last year because we lost by 5 points instead of 7 points isn’t what serious programs do. Blowing a 20 point lead against Wisconsin and scoring 17 points in the entire second half was as bad as anything I saw last season. They have 14 more conference games to prove that they’re different from the IU teams of the past 5 years. 

No, I posted the exact numbers. I went through and added all FG's and all 3PT's taken in each of the first 6 games, from the box scores. It's easy.

And just looking at the record, while ignoring that we lost at home NWU last year in the first 6, that we lost by more, that we won by less, through the first 6 in 2020 v 2021 is not an apples to apples comparison, and you asked for an apples to apples comparison, so I posted it for you.

I agree we have the rest of the season, and we won't know until we get there, but so far this team is better, hands down -- except, my concern, on the number of 3's being taken, that's my continuing concern, fwiw.

[HoosierHoopster]

2 minutes ago, HoosierAloha said:

I guess this is where we are as a program though, arguing over if we've improved a little or improved from one shitty season to the next.

And on this we agree. Lol -- except I don't think this season will end sh___y. I think we'll  make the tourney (FINALLY). Here's to hoping.

[HoosierAloha]

7 minutes ago, Uspshoosier said:

Wisky game last year went to 2OT

Better or worse than giving up a 22 point lead to lose by 5 a year later?

It will be incredibly nice one decade when we can compare our amazing wins from one amazing season to the wins from a championship season before.

[Uspshoosier]

Just now, HoosierAloha said:

Better or worse than giving up a 22 point lead to lose by 5 a year later?

It will be incredibly nice one decade when we can compare our amazing wins from one amazing season to the wins from a championship season before.

Not sure just pointing out the game went to 2OT last year.  Hoopster didn’t include that in the original post.   Thought it should be noted it went to 2OT