2022-2023 IUBB Roster Projection

[Hoosierfan2017]

5 minutes ago, brumdog45 said:

We’re a better team with all three.  But I don’t see the scenario with Trayce coming back.  Have no idea about Race.

JG led the team in rebounds per minute and was fourth in points per minutes.  That’s pretty damn good for a sophomore.

So I’ve always hated per 40 minutes/per 100 possessions stats. They don’t measure your actual production. They just take your output during X minutes and extrapolate it out to 40 minutes. It doesn’t account for wear and tire and fatigue from playing more minutes. Boban Marjanović is a per minute god. There’s a lot to be said about a player being able to go out and produce for 30+ minutes a night. A guy who’s playing 10 mpg doesn’t have the same demands. 

I’m not even saying that he sucks or that he won’t improve or that I hope he leaves. I just think the idea of ‘moving on’ from your two best players because a role player might transfer if they stay is crazy talk. Our prospects next year are higher if we keep Trayce and Race, which in turn helps in the following years. We got 29 ppg and 16 rpg from the two of them last season. That’s a ton of production to replace for a team that, as the roster stands today, has Michael Durr and Logan Duncomb next in line for the frontcourt. 

[Hoosierfan2017]

19 minutes ago, HoosierHoopster said:

He was on both a per minute basis and per 40 basis one of our best players in several stats, and his minutes were clearly growing significantly by end of season, along with his all around game

So what? Boban Marjanović is a career 23/15 guy per 36 minutes. That doesn’t make him as good as Joel Embiid. I put far more stock in a player’s actual production than I do the per minute production of a player playing 10 mpg.. Geronimo is a per minute king, great. He wasn’t good enough to beat out Miller Kopp for a starting spot. He played well against Wyoming. That’s far more meaningful than his per minute/per 40 production.

[Golfman25]

1 hour ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

Why would we want to “move on” from our two best players?

Because they kill our future.  More race and phin as they have done their 4 years. TJD isn’t coming back.  

[RaceToTheTop]

6 minutes ago, HoosierAloha said:

Would one extrapolate to the other?

Who knows.  Maybe he is third instead of fourth in scoring if extrapolated.  Do you think he would have turned into Nate Childress if he played more minutes?  Cause I don’t.

Every stat based on what occurred when he was in indicates he’s a damn good player.  His on/off points indicate he was fourth best in that category behind X, Race, and Trayce.

 

[RaceToTheTop]

7 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

So what? Boban Marjanović is a career 23/15 guy per 36 minutes. That doesn’t make him as good as Joel Embiid. I put far more stock in a player’s actual production than I do the per minute production of a player playing 10 mpg.. Geronimo is a per minute king, great. He wasn’t good enough to beat out Miller Kopp for a starting spot. He played well against Wyoming. That’s far more meaningful than his per minute/per 40 production.

You couldn’t be more hypocritical here.  The first half of the year you spent calling for Lander to get minutes.  By your logic, you shouldn’t have because he wasn’t good enough to beat out X or Phin.  Get real.

[HoosierAloha]

6 minutes ago, brumdog45 said:

Who knows.  Maybe he is third instead of fourth in scoring if extrapolated.  Do you think he would have turned into Nate Childress if he played more minutes?  Cause I don’t.

Every stat based on what occurred when he was in indicates he’s a damn good player.  His on/off points indicate he was fourth best in that category behind X, Race, and Trayce.

 

If you're one of the best on a per minute basis wouldn't you be one of the best on a per 40 and vice versa? Is that not how that works with those stats?

I think Geronimo had a solid sophomore year and should have received more minutes. He has a ton of potential and I would be ecstatic if that is realized while he plays for IU.

[RaceToTheTop]

1 minute ago, HoosierAloha said:

If you're one of the best on a per minute basis wouldn't you be one of the best on a per 40 and vice versa? Is that not how that works with those stats?

I think Geronimo had a solid sophomore year and should have received more minutes. He has a ton of potential and I would be ecstatic if that is realized while he plays for IU.

Gotcha.  Didn’t catch how I stated it.

[Hoosierfan2017]

11 minutes ago, brumdog45 said:

You couldn’t be more hypocritical here.  The first half of the year you spent calling for Lander to get minutes.  By your logic, you shouldn’t have because he wasn’t good enough to beat out X or Phin.  Get real.

And the second half of the year I stopped calling for him to get minutes. And I never called for him to get minutes over Xavier in the first place. Besides, whether you think I’m being hypocritical or not doesn’t change the facts at present. Plus, Lander isn’t even on the team anymore. In a roster projection thread, he’s the one guy we can say with a certainty won’t be on the roster. We had a gaping hole at the 3 this year and Geronimo couldn’t fill it. I hope all three guys are on the team next year. 

[Hoosierfan2017]

15 minutes ago, Golfman25 said:

Because they kill our future.  More race and phin as they have done their 4 years. TJD isn’t coming back.  

In your post you said you want to move on from Trayce, though, not that he isn’t coming back. Maybe Phinisee would hurt the future, I don’t disagree with you there. I’m had my fill of Phinisee. But having upperclassmen as good as Race and Trayce are what you want in your program. A 5 star senior like Trayce is basically the dream and it’s the model some very successful programs have used in the past. 

[RaceToTheTop]

Just now, Hoosierfan2017 said:

And the second half of the year I stopped calling for him to get minutes. And I never called for him to get minutes over Xavier in the first place. Besides, whether you think I’m being hypocritical or not doesn’t change the facts at present. Plus, Lander isn’t even on the team anymore. In a roster projection thread, he’s the one guy we can say with a certainty won’t be on the roster. We had a gaping hole at the 3 this year and Geronimo couldn’t fill it. 

You said you stopped calling for it the second half of the year because you had ‘given up on him getting minutes’.  I don’t think you are being hypocritical — I’ve shown you are.  
 

if you are going to keep going with the logic that if s coach makes a decision that is the correct one and therefore JG shouldn’t have gotten any of Kopp’s minutes, then I’m not sure why you would ever argue anyone’s playing time. The only difference between the JG and Lander arguments are JG actually produced when he played.

[RaceToTheTop]

2 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

In your post you said you want to move on from Trayce, though, not that he isn’t coming back. Maybe Phinisee would hurt the future, I don’t disagree with you there. I’m had my fill of Phinisee. But having upperclassmen as good as Race and Trayce are what you want in your program. A 5 star senior like Trayce is basically the dream and it’s the model some very successful programs have used in the past. 

He is.  I just don’t see him coming back.  

[Hoosierfan2017]

8 minutes ago, brumdog45 said:

You said you stopped calling for it the second half of the year because you had ‘given up on him getting minutes’.  I don’t think you are being hypocritical — I’ve shown you are.  
 

if you are going to keep going with the logic that if s coach makes a decision that is the correct one and therefore JG shouldn’t have gotten any of Kopp’s minutes, then I’m not sure why you would ever argue anyone’s playing time. The only difference between the JG and Lander arguments are JG actually produced when he played.

Okay, great. I’m a hypocrite. You’re trying to deflect by bringing up Lander instead of addressing Geronimo not being able to beat out Kopp. 

In those conversations you and I went around and around on this issue. I thought Lander should have gotten more minutes, you would say that he can’t even beat out Phinisee. Well, here, it’s the same thing, no? Geronimo was 9th on the team in mpg. The coaches obviously didn’t think he was good enough to be playing more. I’m sure the coaches were privy to the sacred per minute stats but they still didn’t think we’d be a better team with him getting more minutes. I’ve been told we have a staff full of great basketball minds, so what gives? 

[RaceToTheTop]

Just now, Hoosierfan2017 said:

Okay, great. I’m a hypocrite. You’re trying to deflect by bringing up Lander instead of addressing Geronimo not being able to beat out Kopp. 

In those conversations you and I went around and around on this issue. I thought Lander should have gotten more minutes, you would say that he can’t even beat out Phinisee. Well, here, it’s the same thing, no? Geronimo was 9th on the team in mpg. The coaches obviously didn’t think he was good enough to be playing more. I’m sure the coaches were privy to the sacred per minute stats but still didn’t think we’d be a better team with him getting more minutes. I’ve been told we have a staff full of great basketball minds, so what gives? 

INCORRECT.  I did NOT say Lander shouldn't be playing because he DIDN'T beat out Phinisee.  I gave REASONS why he didn't beat him out,.  That's silly to say someone shouldn't be playing because they didn't beat out the person in front of them.....that's circular logic, which is what you are providing.  You are the one deflecting by I used your illogical statement to directly refute your previous statement.

Almost to a man, everyone on this site has said that Stewart and Kopp were getting minutes they did not deserve to get, so you can stop building the strawmen of 'I've been told we have a staff full of great basketball minds'.  I guess you weren't here the day that posters were criticizing the staff.  If you think everyone on here is giving the coaches a free pass for their decisions, I don't what to tell you other than that's quite some strawman you built.

 

[Hoosierfan2017]

11 minutes ago, brumdog45 said:

INCORRECT.  I did NOT say Lander shouldn't be playing because he DIDN'T beat out Phinisee.  I gave REASONS why he didn't beat him out,.  That's silly to say someone shouldn't be playing because they didn't beat out the person in front of them.....that's circular logic, which is what you are providing.  You are the one deflecting by I used your illogical statement to directly refute your previous statement.

Almost to a man, everyone on this site has said that Stewart and Kopp were getting minutes they did not deserve to get, so you can stop building the strawmen of 'I've been told we have a staff full of great basketball minds'.  I guess you weren't here the day that posters were criticizing the staff.  If you think everyone on here is giving the coaches a free pass for their decisions, I don't what to tell you other than that's quite some strawman you built.

 

I have quite literally had posters say “oh you think you know more than the staff” in response to my criticisms. Lol. 

Geronimo didn’t play more because he’s a post player in a wing’s body. That’s where the whole “he’ll leave instead of sitting behind Race and Trayce” is coming from. He doesn’t have the perimeter skills to play the 3 next to Race/Trayce. If he did, the solution would be simple and those guys coming back wouldn’t matter at all. Since he doesn’t, any starting lineup with him in it is going to be playing small ball because we’ll have a 6’6 guy at pf.

[RaceToTheTop]

14 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

I have quite literally had posters say “oh you think you know more than the staff” in response to my criticisms. Lol. 

Geronimo didn’t play more because he’s a post player in a wing’s body. That’s where the whole “he’ll leave instead of sitting behind Race and Trayce” is coming from. He doesn’t have the perimeter skills to play the 3 next to Race/Trayce. If he did, the solution would be simple and those guys coming back wouldn’t matter at all. Since he doesn’t, any starting lineup with him in it is going to be playing small ball because we’ll have a 6’6 guy at pf.

For your first statement:  That wasn't me, so it can't be attributed to any argument I've made.  The farthest I've ever went is to say that coaches are privy to things they see in practice that we aren't, but I'm not going to write off an opinion just because of that. 

In terms of the second paragraph, that's a possibility -- but not a certainty either.  I certainly would have preferred him playing the three to Kopp because I think whatever is lost that Kopp provided (some outside shooting -- although it wasn't good) and some ballhandling -- would not have been of greater value than JG would have added -- he certainly would have defended the 3 better than Kopp and he most definitely is going to create more turnovers and rebound much better.  We only saw a JG/Race/Trayce trio for 14 minutes all year so we didn't get much of a look at it.  

[Golfman25]

1 hour ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

In your post you said you want to move on from Trayce, though, not that he isn’t coming back. Maybe Phinisee would hurt the future, I don’t disagree with you there. I’m had my fill of Phinisee. But having upperclassmen as good as Race and Trayce are what you want in your program. A 5 star senior like Trayce is basically the dream and it’s the model some very successful programs have used in the past. 

Right, but he's not coming back.  So you stop dreaming and move on.  

[Golfman25]

1 hour ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

Okay, great. I’m a hypocrite. You’re trying to deflect by bringing up Lander instead of addressing Geronimo not being able to beat out Kopp. 

In those conversations you and I went around and around on this issue. I thought Lander should have gotten more minutes, you would say that he can’t even beat out Phinisee. Well, here, it’s the same thing, no? Geronimo was 9th on the team in mpg. The coaches obviously didn’t think he was good enough to be playing more. I’m sure the coaches were privy to the sacred per minute stats but they still didn’t think we’d be a better team with him getting more minutes. I’ve been told we have a staff full of great basketball minds, so what gives? 

Apparently half the staff wasn't listened to.  

[WayneFleekHoosier]

It is amazing to me Woody didn’t try different starting 5s. It’s almost like he wanted 2 balanced 5 man units, lol. I would have loved to see X, Bates, Geronimo, Race, TJD after getting 6-8 games together under their belts. If we aren’t going to fire 3s don’t give majority minutes to guys that don’t hardly shoot them. Despite Bates numbers being down, his visible potential far exceeded anything Kopp and Stewart was doing. Those 2 plus Galloway should have rotated as starters until it got figured out.


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[Golfman25]

8 minutes ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:

It is amazing to me Woody didn’t try different starting 5s. It’s almost like he wanted 2 balanced 5 man units, lol. I would have loved to see X, Bates, Geronimo, Race, TJD after getting 6-8 games together under their belts. If we aren’t going to fire 3s don’t give majority minutes to guys that don’t hardly shoot them. Despite Bates numbers being down, his visible potential far exceeded anything Kopp and Stewart was doing. Those 2 plus Galloway should have rotated as starters until it got figured out.


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sounds like he was doing what his NBA "consultants" told him to do.  

[HoosierAloha]

14 minutes ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:

It is amazing to me Woody didn’t try different starting 5s. It’s almost like he wanted 2 balanced 5 man units, lol. I would have loved to see X, Bates, Geronimo, Race, TJD after getting 6-8 games together under their belts. If we aren’t going to fire 3s don’t give majority minutes to guys that don’t hardly shoot them. Despite Bates numbers being down, his visible potential far exceeded anything Kopp and Stewart was doing. Those 2 plus Galloway should have rotated as starters until it got figured out.


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