TOM CREAN FIRED

[Baltimore Hoosier 986]

4 minutes ago, TheWatShot said:

The next coach may have ups and downs. Or, he may be consistently great. We know Crean isn't constantly great and never will be. Why keep trying something that obviously won't work? 

Not saying Crean is the answer.. I just don't know what great coaches with National Championship/Final Four pedigrees is going to leave their program to come to IU and start over. 

[TheWatShot 14,993]

12 hours ago, HoosierRob said:

If he is fired it's going to be bad pub imo. Winning the big last year and losing Hartman, og, and juwan for some games will be brought up, you can believe that.

The talking heads seem to like crean and I just see it looking bad for IU if we do indeed let him go.

It might seem like "bad pub" to you, but it's really just the way of the coaching world. Ben Howland took UCLA to 3 Final Fours and got fired two weeks after winning the Pac-12. Crean hasn't done anything close to that. He missed the tourney and got a 10 seed (lowest we've ever been seeded, btw) following his first Big Ten title, and could miss the tourney again this year after winning the second. He's shown multiple times that he cannot sustain success, even with all the resources he needs. Not to mention, he's been 9 years. We gave him more than enough time. The only people who would take issue with us moving on are the people who don't want to see us become a powerhouse again. 

[Baltimore Hoosier 986]

2 minutes ago, TheWatShot said:

It might seem like "bad pub" to you, but it's really just the way of the coaching world. Ben Howland took UCLA to 3 Final Fours and got fired two weeks after winning the Pac-12. Crean hasn't done anything close to that. He missed the tourney and got a 10 seed (lowest we've ever been seeded, btw) following his first Big Ten title, and could miss the tourney again this year after winning the second. He's shown multiple times that he cannot sustain success, even with all the resources he needs. Not to mention, he's been 9 years. We gave him more than enough time. The only people who would take issue with us moving on are the people who don't want to see us become a powerhouse again. 

Who's the guy who is going to come in and restore the Indiana glory days? 

[Baltimore Hoosier 986]

I wonder how many people wanted Jay Wright gone after 7-8 years with no Final Fours and several VERY good teams. Took him about 16 years to win a National Championship. 

[Hoosierfan2017 23,462]

9 minutes ago, Baltimore Hoosier said:

Not saying Crean is the answer.. I just don't know what great coaches with National Championship/Final Four pedigrees is going to leave their program to come to IU and start over. 

Eh, if we got a "great" coach to come here they wouldn't need to start over. A great coach could turn our program around in a 2 year span. 

[Baltimore Hoosier 986]

Just now, Hoosierfan2017 said:

Eh, if we got a "great" coach to come here they wouldn't need to start over. A great coach could turn our program around in a 2 year span. 

Who though? Who is the guy? Alot of people talk about firing Crean but have no follow up to that. I don't see someone being able to come in, make sure guys don't leave the program, and restoring glory days from 20-30 years ago in 2 years. 

[Brass Cannon 25,176]

7 minutes ago, Baltimore Hoosier said:

Who though? Who is the guy? Alot of people talk about firing Crean but have no follow up to that. I don't see someone being able to come in, make sure guys don't leave the program, and restoring glory days from 20-30 years ago in 2 years. 

I'm pretty sure we could do better though.  In the last 9 years how many coaches have made an elite 8.  Probably a couple dozen.  How many made more than 1, probably more than a few.  There are coaches out there whose greatest struggle is facilities and resources. Donovan was a great example of this, a great coach who had no support.  Those are the kind of guys we need to target. 

[Hoosierfan2017 23,462]

5 minutes ago, Baltimore Hoosier said:

Who though? Who is the guy? Alot of people talk about firing Crean but have no follow up to that. I don't see someone being able to come in, make sure guys don't leave the program, and restoring glory days from 20-30 years ago in 2 years. 

No clue, but I think a lot of coaches would be interested in IU if we had an opening and reached out to them. We don't know who they are because they aren't going to make that public knowledge. I think Bill Self or a Bill Self caliber coach would be able to come in and recruit well enough to turn us into a consistent title contender in a very short period of time. The Big 12 is always in flux and maybe he wants to take on the challenge of the Big 10. Even if we strike out on the home run guys there are a dozen or more coaches who could come in and at the least give us what Crean has given over 9 years, imo. At some point we have to take a chance because if we keep Crean around for another 10-15 years I don't think IU ever recovers. 

[JSHoosier 21,685]

1 hour ago, Baltimore Hoosier said:

A program like Indiana NEEDS stability. In order to fire Crean, it would have to be for someone who can come in, take over, and be here for the long haul. Whether there are ups and downs or not. This thread was nowhere to be found at the beginning of the season. Now that IU has had some struggles and the Sweet 16 hangover and win over Kentucky are gone, people want Crean out. Who's to say the next guy doesn't come in and have ups and downs? The "it's Indiana" argument doesn't really work anymore. Been almost 30 years since the last Championship. 15 years since the last Final Four. Most of the teams who win National Championships are teams with coaches who have been around for a good length of time at the same program. 

I've said it before, I'll say it again.  Coaches earn stability, and Crean has not earned what some want to give him.  Giving him 15-20 years won't suddenly make him a better than mediocre coach and we'll be even further removed from the last title/Final Four (Crean is NEVER getting back there, period), at which time some would be saying to keep Crean because of how long it'd had been since we were there.

For the record, I've wanted Crean gone for a couple years.

[Old Friend 8,552]

1 minute ago, JSHoosier said:

I've said it before, I'll say it again.  Coaches earn stability, and Crean has not earned what some want to give him.  Giving him 15-20 years won't suddenly make him a better than mediocre coach and we'll be even further removed from the last title/Final Four (Crean is NEVER getting back there, period), at which time some would be saying to keep Crean because of how long it'd had been since we were there.

For the record, I've wanted Crean gone for a couple years.

This is very well said.   Continuity for the sake of continuity is not a good idea when a team is mediocre.  IU is mediocre by IU's standards.   If we play a good team, Crean is never the best coach on the floor.   Indiana wins when we make 3 point shots (and are allowed to get them in transition), and we lose when we don't.    Against good teams, that's generally the formula.   If we aren't making shots and teams make us guard for 15 seconds, we won't beat .....Nebraska.  Crean has done some really nice things at IU.  He did a good job when he got here of righting the ship, but I think year 3 was worse than it needed to be.   But then...after Zeller and Oladipo left (along with Hulls), he finished 8th and 7th in the Big Ten.  Elite coaches don't have that problem when they lose kids.   He's a decent leader of a program, but he is not a great basketball coach.

[8bucks 7,054]

Who though? Who is the guy? Alot of people talk about firing Crean but have no follow up to that. I don't see someone being able to come in, make sure guys don't leave the program, and restoring glory days from 20-30 years ago in 2 years. 

Another way to look at it is to ask would you be interested in hiring Crean for another 5 years? Because this summer or next he has to get extended or removed. So if you extend is he a home run hire? No, so why all the pressure to hit a home run for his successor?

The program is in very good shape overall. The only question is coaching. Let's say you bring in Chris Holtman. It is unlikely we finish in the bottom of the BT three years in a row. If he essentially keeps us in our current position and never gets past sweet 16 in say 5 years then you have to ask again, is this who we are now?

Maybe that answer is yes but I think with our resources and the overall shape of the program getting a Crean equivalent is not that hard. Taking a few swings to try and find someone who is better is not going to hurt the program any more than letting apathy develop.

[HoosierAloha 30,100]

A program like Indiana NEEDS stability.

Completely agree with this. Conference finishes of last, 9th, last, 5th, first, 8th, 7th, first, and tbd is not stability IU NEEDS. I haven't calculated the wins compared with the rest of the B1G but I'm guessing that's 4th or 5th most wins. I guess if we're sold on being a second rate program in our own conference we've got the right coach because of stability.

[JSHoosier 21,685]

40 minutes ago, Baltimore Hoosier said:

I wonder how many people wanted Jay Wright gone after 7-8 years with no Final Fours and several VERY good teams. Took him about 16 years to win a National Championship. 

Jay Wright had gotten past the Sweet 16 twice, with one of those being the Final Four in 2008-2009.  After his first 3 years at Villanova, he'd missed the NCAAs a grand total of once which is also how many times in that period they were eliminated in the first roun (once).  More conference titles too, his pre-Villanova days had more conference titles than Crean's pre-IU days as well.

No dice, Jay Wright at Villanova has been better than Crean has here.

[recker222000 1,010]

I wonder how many people wanted Jay Wright gone after 7-8 years with no Final Fours and several VERY good teams. Took him about 16 years to win a National Championship. 

Crean has had 17 years to win a national title and still no dice. Do we give him 30 years?

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[HoosierTrav 8,091]

I'm not sure it'd be as bad as you think.  He's had 9 years to show what he could do with the resources.  Plus places like IU have high expectations (and they should), which he hasn't met.

We can't let media talking heads dictate where we move with our program. I doubt any coach places any value in what Jay Bilas and those alike think about any potential destination. A lot of the media talking heads are ex coaches. They all stand up for each other, regardless of whether a coach is meeting expectations. They act like each guy is entitled to a lucrative lifetime contract that comes with zero expectations. Seth Greenberg is the worst. Constantly harping on how hard these guys jobs are but conveniently leaves out the fact that they get paid a Kings ransom to perform at or below the level of other coaches being paid less than half.

I agree that the media will bash the decision to fire Crean. That still won't matter. We will get a great coach this go round.

[HoosierTrav 8,091]

A program like Indiana NEEDS stability. In order to fire Crean, it would have to be for someone who can come in, take over, and be here for the long haul. Whether there are ups and downs or not. This thread was nowhere to be found at the beginning of the season. Now that IU has had some struggles and the Sweet 16 hangover and win over Kentucky are gone, people want Crean out. Who's to say the next guy doesn't come in and have ups and downs? The "it's Indiana" argument doesn't really work anymore. Been almost 30 years since the last Championship. 15 years since the last Final Four. Most of the teams who win National Championships are teams with coaches who have been around for a good length of time at the same program. 

We know what we have with Crean. I can live with us taking a shot at someone new and it not working out. But we can't let the fear of failing to hire a winner, keep us stuck in mediocrity. He made millions and was given a ridiculous amount of time to get us a final four. Time to let someone else give it a go.

[HoosierTrav 8,091]

Who's the guy who is going to come in and restore the Indiana glory days? 

I hate when people ask this. How can anyone answer this? Take a risk..Make the job available...Target your candidates...Gauge interest...Use all of your resources to get them...Don't take no for an answer.... We aren't going to know who we can really get until the job is available. Fire Crean and take a swing. Can't hit a homerun if you don't step to the plate.

Crean, as much as he isn't the right fit, really made this job a premiere job once again. We will have plenty of options once the job is available. Just don't expect to know before Crean is fired. I'm actually in the camp that believes Crean leaves Indiana on mutual terms, rather than being fired. We can avoid a ton of negative press this way as well.

[Baltimore Hoosier 986]

As long as people are willing to accept some growing pains and the potential that there may be some rebuilding and it may take a few years to get to where this team needs to be, I'm all for it. The problem is, I think alot of fans think you bring a new coach in, and we are in the National Championship. There are still some folks who think this is 1987.

The last thing this program needs is to bring in a new coach, there are some struggles, then we are calling for the guy's head. I'm not willing to sacrifice the progress that has been made since Sampson. 

[Brass Cannon 25,176]

Firing a guy after 9 years of failing to do his job is not a lack of stability. 

[Feathery 4,005]

5 hours ago, Baltimore Hoosier said:

As long as people are willing to accept some growing pains and the potential that there may be some rebuilding and it may take a few years to get to where this team needs to be, I'm all for it. The problem is, I think alot of fans think you bring a new coach in, and we are in the National Championship. There are still some folks who think this is 1987.

The last thing this program needs is to bring in a new coach, there are some struggles, then we are calling for the guy's head. I'm not willing to sacrifice the progress that has been made since Sampson. 

College basketball is all about the coach. Get the right coach and you can win multiple national titles. Just because someone hasnt won a title doesnt mean theu cant at a top program. Coach K, Knight, Williams, Self, and Calipari didnt win a title until they were at a top program. Williams even failed at KU but succeeded at UNC. 

So you dont need to hire a Stevens or Donovan to win a title. Those two guys did fantastic at unheralded programs and are now in the pros bc if it. If they want to come, sure get them asap. 

But to hold onto a coach who has been at a top program and not get past the sweet 16, is crazy. 9 seasons of this is not the type of consistancy we want. 

There are clear statistical norms that have formed over time that tells you if a team can win a ncaa title. Since 2002 every national champion has had a top 21 defense efficiency. Tom Creans best defense at IU was 21st. Every other team hasnt been close. Defense wins championships and Tom Crean doesnt do a good enough job teaching that. 

you want names who are upgrades. Stevens, Donovan, and Self are all upgrades and probably longshots. Realistic names who are better than Crean are Gregg Marshall, Tony Bennett, Archie Miller, Chris Holtmann. You wont have to go any further off that list for the mext coach at IU, IF you make the change this year.