TOM CREAN FIRED

[Dalton26 16,892]

We're all beating dead horses.

If you don't want to read it don't click the thread. Pretty simple.

[Brass Cannon 24,942]

People are citing the talent we will have next year as a reason why to keep Crean.  If anything its a reason we should ditch him  We will lose some people but we will hold onto some of them.  And I very seriously doubt Troy is going to want to transfer and wait out a year, same with JBJ.  And if Bryant doesn't declare he isn't going to want to leave and set out a year. 

 

That would be a dangerous core for a new coach to start with. 

[MikeRoberts 7,217]

you could sign up in a couple places for a gig like that. West Virginia, Ohio st are a couple other places you could apply. If you wanted to take a 300,000 pay cut from the 3 mil you could apply to Georgetown or Villanova ( unless you think dominating in a weak conference and early exits from the tounament are not mediocre)

your going to throw Thad Matta in there? Really? Take a closer look at what he has accomplished, one of the most successful tenures of any coach in bigten history

[waitingon6 167]

Must be great to be mediocre at your job while getting paid 3+ million, and not be held accountable.

Where the hell can I sign up for a gig like that?

[Uspshoosier 46,629]

your going to throw Thad Matta in there? Really? Take a closer look at what he has accomplished, one of the most successful tenures of any coach in bigten history

why not their own message boards call him mediocre and a terrible in game coach. not saying I wouldn't take him over our current staff though. I would assume if you are paying 3 plus million you should expect a national title ring on your return right? I will admit it might be a stretch to put him on that list but at the end of the day if u make that amount of money in my opinion u need to win the big one not just get there

[mdn82 25,546]

If we were okay with Crean's resume we could've kept Mike Davis, they are eerily similar.

You can say he went to a Final Four, which is true, but he's done nothing but wallow in mediocrity for the overwhelming majority of 17 seasons as a head coach. That Final Four was also 13 years ago and he's done nothing to make it seem like anything other than a fluke.

Mike Davis didn't have boosters backing or graduating kids so that is different than the job description. You wanted a job for $3 million while being mediocre. Davis didn't make $3 million. To make $3 million I am trying to tell you what you need to do. If we are being real. Really not sure why his whole career gets continually brought up. I am more concerned with what coaches do when they are brought here and put in realistic situations to succeed. I think 2010 was the first season I can realistically judge him. The two following seasons I was happy. The following two I was not. I personally hope the last month is a make or break. Before you go back to the same 17 years talk you have to try and put apples to apples with comparisons. I know that will mean nothing and you or someone else will reply something about his time at Marquette... So yeah. I am excited on way or the other for this last month.

[KingPG21 6,587]

you could sign up in a couple places for a gig like that. West Virginia, Ohio st are a couple other places you could apply. If you wanted to take a 300,000 pay cut from the 3 mil you could apply to Georgetown or Villanova ( unless you think dominating in a weak conference and early exits from the tounament are not mediocre)

Lol, Matta has done a lot at OSU. Hell of a lot more than Crean has done here. Funny thing is some of their fan base turned on him a hell of a lot quicker than we turned on Crean

[KingPG21 6,587]

People are citing the talent we will have next year as a reason why to keep Crean.  If anything its a reason we should ditch him  We will lose some people but we will hold onto some of them.  And I very seriously doubt Troy is going to want to transfer and wait out a year, same with JBJ.  And if Bryant doesn't declare he isn't going to want to leave and set out a year. 

 

That would be a dangerous core for a new coach to start with. 

People did the exact same thing when talking about how there shouldn't be a huge drop off between 2012-2013 to 2013-2014. We had Vonleh coming in, Williams was extremely raw (still is), Yogi was a sophomore, Sheehey, Robinson was talked about as an underrated recruit (like literally every recruit we get outside of the truly extreme stretches), people thought Hollowell and Hanner were going to make jumps.

 

Point is every year people want to talk about the incoming and/or returning talent Crean has coming in as a big point for why we can't fire him. Unless there are big bold letters in the sky saying that the coach won't be back, then you can say this about just about every coach in Crean's situation. At some point the it doesn't matter what we could potentially lose, not even guaranteed, you have to go in another direction. 

[Old Friend 8,389]

Mike Davis didn't have boosters backing or graduating kids so that is different than the job description. You wanted a job for $3 million while being mediocre. Davis didn't make $3 million. To make $3 million I am trying to tell you what you need to do. If we are being real. Really not sure why his whole career gets continually brought up. I am more concerned with what coaches do when they are brought here and put in realistic situations to succeed. I think 2010 was the first season I can realistically judge him. The two following seasons I was happy. The following two I was not. I personally hope the last month is a make or break. Before you go back to the same 17 years talk you have to try and put apples to apples with comparisons. I know that will mean nothing and you or someone else will reply something about his time at Marquette... So yeah. I am excited on way or the other for this last month.

I have said before and I'll say again.....If Tom Crean is responsible for 200 things, he's done very well at 190 of them.  The problem is, at Indiana University - to keep fans and alumni happy, anyway - you have to win.  I think too much is placed on NCAA titles around here because so much goes into that beyond what a coach can control; and I don't use that as any kind of criteria for judging Crean.

 

But I do think being in position to win Big Ten titles consistently is a fair expectation here; and he's not done that.  There is no reason and no justification for 8th and 7th place finishes in his 5th and 6th seasons at Indiana.  None.  And, it's not just a one year thing, either.  Bo Ryan coached 14 years at Wisconsin and never finished below 4th.  In BCS conferences (I don't count Conf. USA in the 1990's), Crean's finished ABOVE 4th just one time in his career.  That's just a fact, and I've not seen anything to indicate he can do better at Indiana.

 

We all have our complaints about one coach or another.  I never thought Mike Davis understood where he was or the height of the expectations here.  I hated his recruiting focus on the south, and I hated when he said "help is on the way" when two shiny things were coming from Maryland and Texas while he had a roster full of kids that took him to the Final Four that very season.  He said more dumb things than anyone had a right to; and he was a horrible fit hired by a horrible president.  Neither Davis nor Herbert should ever have been in the positions they were.

 

But....from a purely basketball standpoint, Davis' and Crean's resumes aren't very different.  That's reality, too.

 

My complaint about Crean is three-fold.  One is I hate that he's shifted his primary recruiting focus to the east coast.  Indiana is a unique place with a unique culture, and we're starting to lose it because so many kids don't know of it or understand it.  Nobody has to agree with that, but nobody's going to convince me otherwise, either.   I think Indiana needs to own Indiana, Illinois, and Ohio.   I don't care at all when we go get a Thomas Bryant, but I'll never support prioritizing Stanford Robinson, Emmitt Holt, Max Hoetzel, etc over local kids.  There's just no reason for it.  

 

Second, I hate our half court offense because we don't move very well, don't cut or screen with purpose, and we don't do anything to get shooters open.  I grew up with Knight.  I don't want him back, and I don't necessarily want a "motion" offense the way people will argue that's what I mean.  But, he was a master at getting shots for his scorers, and I don't understand why we don't get Zeisloft 8 three pointers every game.  Why we never did anything to get Hulls open.  I don't understand why so much of what we do in the half court involves dribbling.  I also don't like that we don't show a consistent commitment to team defense.   We're better, but show many lapses. 

 

Finally, the off-court stuff and his fracturing local recruiting relationships are simply not Indiana's DNA.  Not "It's Indiana."   That - to me - now just looks like lip service.  I also think it's because he recruited a bunch of kids who had no idea where they were nor of the expectations of being a player at Indiana.  One mistake? I'll give any kid one mistake.  But 2, 3, or 4?  Idiotic.  I haven't cared for the leadership of his players since Hulls, Watford, Oladipo, etc. left.  I've not cared for what seems to be a care-free approach to turnovers and bad shots.  Etc.

 

I do love that we generally graduate kids and I applaud Crean's obvious passion for being accountable and building a great program.  I don't like the way he's doing it, and I don't think he can do what we need done consistently with this formula; but he's done a lot of things well.   That said, he's done a few very important things poorly; which is why his seat's hot.  And why people will continue to stay on his case until he proves changes have been made.  I am not currently on the "fire him" bandwagon, but if this team doesn't make a serious run and finish 1st or 2nd in the Big Ten, I really don't know how anyone wouldn't be.  Making the NCAA Tournament is not the bar, here.

[seanmm1971 1,437]

Thought this was the place for this.

[JSHoosier 20,556]

Mike Davis didn't have boosters backing or graduating kids so that is different than the job description. You wanted a job for $3 million while being mediocre. Davis didn't make $3 million. To make $3 million I am trying to tell you what you need to do. If we are being real. Really not sure why his whole career gets continually brought up. I am more concerned with what coaches do when they are brought here and put in realistic situations to succeed. I think 2010 was the first season I can realistically judge him. The two following seasons I was happy. The following two I was not. I personally hope the last month is a make or break. Before you go back to the same 17 years talk you have to try and put apples to apples with comparisons. I know that will mean nothing and you or someone else will reply something about his time at Marquette... So yeah. I am excited on way or the other for this last month.

I don't see how we can just ignore his time at Marquette, especially not when their fans had the same complaints we do now.  He didn't just start coaching when he got to Indiana.  He had almost a decades worth of evidence of his ability, and the results here are about the same.

[mdn82 25,546]

I don't see how we can just ignore his time at Marquette, especially not when their fans had the same complaints we do now. He didn't just start coaching when he got to Indiana. He had almost a decades worth of evidence of his ability, and the results here are about the same.

If we judged coaches based on what they did solely on the court coaching before their time at IU and not what the AD could see in the man we would not have hired Branch McCracken or RMK. Duke would not have hired Coach K. I understand when I said what I said you would respond exactly the way you did. Which is fine. We weren't hiring anyone better than Crean coming out of that mess. Not for what the AD wanted our program to be and stand for. If they wanted they could have hired a Calipari. We will see how things shake out. Either way I am fine with. At this point he will either win and stay or lose and go. That won't be based off of his time at Marquette much to your chagrin.

[Stuhoo 82,001]

Must be great to be mediocre at your job while getting paid 3+ million, and not be held accountable.

 

Where the hell can I sign up for a gig like that?

 

Politics, entertainment, and sports.

 

Easier to do as a mediocre left handed relief pitcher or a retired Senator doing speaking engagements and lobbying than as a basketball coach, but basketball coach can work too! :)

[JSHoosier 20,556]

If we judged coaches based on what they did solely on the court coaching before their time at IU and not what the AD could see in the man we would not have hired Branch McCracken or RMK. Duke would not have hired Coach K. I understand when I said what I said you would respond exactly the way you did. Which is fine. We weren't hiring anyone better than Crean coming out of that mess. Not for what the AD wanted our program to be and stand for. If they wanted they could have hired a Calipari. We will see how things shake out. Either way I am fine with. At this point he will either win and stay or lose and go. That won't be based off of his time at Marquette much to your chagrin.

I'm not basing anything solely on his time at Marquette, but I do believe it should be factored in.

 

Branch McCracken didn't finish below 2nd until his 7th year at IU, and he won a national title in his second.  Bob Knight finished below 3rd once in his first 7 years here with an Elite 8, two Final Fours and a national title thrown in.  Admittedly, neither coach walked into what Crean did although we weren't spotless when RMK came in.  

 

I'm not looking just at his Marquette tenure, but I'm not pretending it didn't happen either.  I'm looking at both and seeing more of a continuance than an improvement, and that shouldn't be good enough at IU since he hasn't won much of anything.

 

I didn't say anything about doing better when we hired him, but I do believe we can do better now.  I was as ecstatic as anyone when he was first hired, but at this point he's lost me too much for one season or a string of games mostly against bad teams to do anything to change my opinion.  He's been a head coach for 17 seasons and he's much closer to being Mike Davis than he is Branch McCracken or Bob Knight.

[mdn82 25,546]

I'm not basing anything solely on his time at Marquette, but I do believe it should be factored in.

 

Branch McCracken didn't finish below 2nd until his 7th year at IU, and he won a national title in his second.  Bob Knight finished below 3rd once in his first 7 years here with an Elite 8, two Final Fours and a national title thrown in.  Admittedly, neither coach walked into what Crean did although we weren't spotless when RMK came in.  

 

I'm not looking just at his Marquette tenure, but I'm not pretending it didn't happen either.  I'm looking at both and seeing more of a continuance than an improvement, and that shouldn't be good enough at IU since he hasn't won much of anything.

 

I didn't say anything about doing better when we hired him, but I do believe we can do better now.  I was as ecstatic as anyone when he was first hired, but at this point he's lost me too much for one season or a string of games mostly against bad teams to do anything to change my opinion.  He's been a head coach for 17 seasons and he's much closer to being Mike Davis than he is Branch McCracken or Bob Knight.

See, that is where we are just different.  Tom Crean is not the same man at Marquette he is at IU.  Recruiting opportunities are different.  Funding is different.  Conference is different.  AD is different.  Staff is different.  Expectations are different.  To me it just makes no sense to try and draw parallels between the two.  That is what I am getting at.  What he did at Marquette is not good enough here.  If we finish this season on a slide (which is entirely possible), there should be enough of a gap between his freebie years and now to prove there is no chance.  I know you and others feel that way already.  I actually agree with you guys.  Shocking as that may sound to you.  I am just at the point where I hope he wins big or bombs big.  No in between.

[Stuhoo 82,001]

 I am just at the point where I hope he wins big or bombs big.  No in between.

 

^^This^^

[JSHoosier 20,556]

See, that is where we are just different.  Tom Crean is not the same man at Marquette he is at IU.  Recruiting opportunities are different.  Funding is different.  Conference is different.  AD is different.  Staff is different.  Expectations are different.  To me it just makes no sense to try and draw parallels between the two.  That is what I am getting at.  What he did at Marquette is not good enough here.  If we finish this season on a slide (which is entirely possible), there should be enough of a gap between his freebie years and now to prove there is no chance.  I know you and others feel that way already.  I actually agree with you guys.  Shocking as that may sound to you.  I am just at the point where I hope he wins big or bombs big.  No in between.

Recruiting opportunities, funding, and all that is different.  However, the results so far really aren't any different.  The complaints by the fan base aren't any different.  He didn't build on his one year run at Marquette, but despite having better resources he didn't build on success here.  The parallels are there, and to me it doesn't make sense to dismiss them or pretend they're just being fabricated.

 

The most a person will ever get me to go for "freebies" is 2 years, year 3 should've been better than 12 wins.

[mdn82 25,546]

Recruiting opportunities, funding, and all that is different. However, the results so far really aren't any different. The complaints by the fan base aren't any different. He didn't build on his one year run at Marquette, but despite having better resources he didn't build on success here. The parallels are there, and to me it doesn't make sense to dismiss them or pretend they're just being fabricated.

The most a person will ever get me to go for "freebies" is 2 years, year 3 should've been better than 12 wins.

I think the place where we will agree is we should have won more games in year 3. Beyond that we will have to agree to disagree.

[chitown hoosier 743]

I wish he would've won more by year 3 but it was an impossible task. He had to scrap together a recruiting class last minute and couldn't get the kids he wanted. Recruiting kids to Indiana wasn't going to happen overnight because of the mess Sampson left the program in. I for one am willing to see where the rest of this season goes before I throw myself in the fire Crean corner. If there is a collapse and Indiana doesn't get to the dance than yes, it's time to move on. The way Indiana has improved since the beginning of the season, I just don't see a momentous collapse.

[Brass Cannon 24,942]

I wish he would've won more by year 3 but it was an impossible task. He had to scrap together a recruiting class last minute and couldn't get the kids he wanted. Recruiting kids to Indiana wasn't going to happen overnight because of the mess Sampson left the program in. I for one am willing to see where the rest of this season goes before I throw myself in the fire Crean corner. If there is a collapse and Indiana doesn't get to the dance than yes, it's time to move on. The way Indiana has improved since the beginning of the season, I just don't see a momentous collapse.

 

Your tune seems to have changed.  Before you were willing to give him next year.