NBA Thread

[HoosierTrav 8,339]

Kinda my boat. I sorta liked the Hibbert West and George teams but it still astounds me how they fail to form a semblance of a decent bench 3 years running. 

Bc they've consistently played well enough to make the playoffs and avoid a pick high enough to land a legitimate franchise player/difference maker. I'd like to see them perform awfully the next few years, so we can draft like GS Minnesota.


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[VO5 8,340]

13 minutes ago, goonaha said:

Why didn't Jordan win MVP every year then if nobody came even close to having better seasons than him? LeBron James might have the best basketball mind of all time so I definitely disagree with your "mental" jab. You can argue that Jordan was more clutch or had a better "killer instinct" because of #rings. I won't debate you on that. But to say that LeBron's "mental game" is weak is just wrong.

Jordan wasn't more mentally tough because he had rings. Jordan was mentally tough because he wanted the ball in his hands and his hands only at the end of games. Everyone on the court knew it was going to him and he still made them look silly. Lebron defers a lot of the time in those situations and it's cost him. Jordan wanted it all on his shoulders.

Jordan was also the guy dishing out trash talk while he had the ball in his hands. Remember the "midget" phrase? Lebron is a guy that gets visibly upset at someone calling him a *****. That's where the killer instinct and mentally weak phrases come in. 

Lebron is an incredibly smart guy. Calling someone mentally weak is different than saying they're stupid. It's all about context.

 

[goonaha 2,974]

Just now, VO5 said:

Jordan wasn't more mentally tough because he had rings. Jordan was mentally tough because he wanted the ball in his hands and his hands only at the end of games. Everyone on the court knew it was going to him and he still made them look silly. Lebron defers a lot of the time in those situations and it's cost him. Jordan wanted it all on his shoulders.

Jordan was also the guy dishing out trash talk while he had the ball in his hands. Remember the "midget" phrase? Lebron is a guy that gets visibly upset at someone calling him a *****. That's where the killer instinct and mentally weak phrases come in. 

Lebron is an incredibly smart guy. Calling someone mentally weak is different than saying they're stupid.

 

Hoosier Aloha said "mental game". That's open to interpretation in terms of what he meant by that. He didn't say "mentally weak" (I'd also disagree with that). LeBron always has the ball in his hands in late game situations; he doesn't always take the last shot. There's a difference there and it's more down to how the two's games are different than a referendum on their "mental toughness". I don't think LeBron is mentally weak for playing the same way all the time. He's always trying to make sure the best shot gets taken, whether it's him or someone in a better spot. 

[Brass Cannon 25,777]

13 minutes ago, HoosierTrav said:

 

Bc they've consistently played well enough to make the playoffs and avoid a pick high enough to land a legitimate franchise player/difference maker. I'd like to see them perform awfully the next few years, so we can draft like GS Minnesota.


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They needed a bench not another franchise player

[VO5 8,340]

2 minutes ago, goonaha said:

Hoosier Aloha said "mental game". That's open to interpretation in terms of what he meant by that. He didn't say "mentally weak" (I'd also disagree with that). LeBron always has the ball in his hands in late game situations; he doesn't always take the last shot. There's a difference there and it's more down to how the two's games are different than a referendum on their "mental toughness". I don't think LeBron is mentally weak for playing the same way all the time. He's always trying to make sure the best shot gets taken, whether it's him or someone in a better spot. 

I was only addressing mentally weak because you referenced it in your post. 

Other than that, I think it's all up to subjectiveness on this matter as the arguments seem to have been made ad nauseum. I don't have a problem with people calling Lebron mentally weak as I view it as different from intelligence. One could argue the best shot is always when it's in Lebron's hands, just like it was in Jordan's. But it's all up to interpretation and how you view them.

[goonaha 2,974]

Just now, VO5 said:

I was only addressing mentally weak because you referenced it in your post. 

Other than that, I think it's all up to subjectiveness on this matter as the arguments seem to have been made ad nauseum. I don't have a problem with people calling Lebron mentally weak as I view it as different from intelligence. One could argue the best shot is always when it's in Lebron's hands, just like it was in Jordan's. But it's all up to interpretation and how you view them.

I guess you could argue that the best shot is always when it's in LeBron/Jordan's hands, but I think that is statistically just not true as well as being overly simplistic. I think even Michael would disagree with that (Steve Kerr shot comes to mind).

[VO5 8,340]

Just now, goonaha said:

I guess you could argue that the best shot is always when it's in LeBron/Jordan's hands, but I think that is statistically just not true as well as being overly simplistic. I think even Michael would disagree with that (Steve Kerr shot comes to mind).

That's certainly true, but in my opinion when the games on the line there's a certain "clutch factor" that comes into place. That type of shot isn't your normal run-of-the-mill game flow shot. I think you kinda have to take percentages with an asterisk in that situation because adrenaline is running higher, a lot of guys might be more anxious about it.

Again this is just my opinion but the mindset is different which is why an open shot for a role player is probably worse than a more contested shot for somebody who's use to being in that position.

[HoosierAloha 30,102]

I don't think LeBron is mentally weak, far from it. I think Jordan's mental game; killer instinct and not giving a rats @$$ what someone says about you. Jordan did his thing and didn't care what others thought. LeBron seeks to gain acceptance and appreciation. He's a tremendous athlete and basketball player but needs people to like him.

[Hoosierfan2017 25,312]

It's always been interesting to me that it's usually said that LeBron "chokes" late in games while Kobe is "clutch" and an "assassin" late in games. The numbers tell a different story.

 

[Hoosierfan2017 25,312]

Idk everyone's definition of killer instinct, but Lebron's ppg average in elimination games is the highest in NBA history. He's at his best with his back against the wall.

 

[Brass Cannon 25,777]

Well if we are using PPG as a useful stat I guess Wilts the best of all time no question. 

[Hoosierfan2017 25,312]

I'm not trying to argue LeBron > Jordan here like I've done in the past. I get that some have Jordan as the clear #1 and that's fine with me. It's probably not appropriate to compare the two while Lebron's career is still going on. I just think that if you look at the numbers he's a lot more clutch than he's given credit for. I think the reason we see him defer late in games sometimes is because of his basketball mind. He has incredible court vision and playmaking ability, and I think a lot of the time he wants to make the smart basketball decision. 

Take his pass to Kyle Korver late in game 3 in this past finals. Korver shot 45.3% on catch&shoot 3s at home this season. LeBron shot 35% on pull up jumpers at home this season. The smart basketball play was kicking it to a wide open Kyle Korver, and that's what he did. You could make the argument that the best player should always take that shot, but Lebron's not wired that way. He's wired to make the right play whether or not it involved him shooting. 

[Hoosierfan2017 25,312]

12 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said:

Well if we are using PPG as a useful stat I guess Wilts the best of all time no question. 

Is PPG not a useful stat? What do you consider to be a useful stat?

i didn't bring up ppg to argue that LeBron is the best of all time. I brought it up to show that LeBron isn't the choke artist that some seem to think he is. When his back is against the wall and he's facing elimination he was the highest ppg average in NBA history. In those games he also averages 10.8 rebounds and 7.1 assists. He doesn't come up small when the pressure is on. I'm not arguing that he's more clutch than Jordan. I'm not arguing that he has a better killer instinct than Jordan. I'm arguing that LeBron doesn't lack those characteristics and I'm including these statistics to support my argument. 

[VO5 8,340]

1 minute ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

I'm not trying to argue LeBron > Jordan here like I've done in the past. I get that some have Jordan as the clear #1 and that's fine with me. It's probably not appropriate to compare the two while Lebron's career is still going on. I just think that if you look at the numbers he's a lot more clutch than he's given credit for. I think the reason we see him defer late in games sometimes is because of his basketball mind. He has incredible court vision and playmaking ability, and I think a lot of the time he wants to make the smart basketball decision. 

Take his pass to Kyle Korver late in game 3 in this past finals. Korver shot 45.3% on catch&shoot 3s at home this season. LeBron shot 35% on pull up jumpers at home this season. The smart basketball play was kicking it to a wide open Kyle Korver, and that's what he did. You could make the argument that the best player should always take that shot, but Lebron's not wired that way. He's wired to make the right play whether or not it involved him shooting. 

I said it earlier, but in my opinion you can't really use % averages in situations like that. It's a completely different shot than in rhythm during the game. There's a lot more pressure and a guy like Lebron should look for his shot more often in those situations. You want the best player on the court with the ball in his hands, not a role player who isn't use to that type of situation.

i get Lebron's thinking, I just am of the opinion that it's flawed. Especially seeing how clutch he actually is in those late game situations.

[Hoosierfan2017 25,312]

3 minutes ago, VO5 said:

I said it earlier, but in my opinion you can't really use % averages in situations like that. It's a completely different shot than in rhythm during the game. There's a lot more pressure and a guy like Lebron should look for his shot more often in those situations. You want the best player on the court with the ball in his hands, not a role player who isn't use to that type of situation.

i get Lebron's thinking, I just am of the opinion that it's flawed. Especially seeing how clutch he actually is in those late game situations.

Oh I completely agree, I think it's flawed thinking too. I wish that he would always have a "screw it, get out of my way" attitude during those situations. I just think his way of thinking is so embedded in him that that's why he does what he does late in games. It frustrates me when I watch it (well except for the times it works lol). 

[Brass Cannon 25,777]

9 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

Is PPG not a useful stat? What do you consider to be a useful stat?

i didn't bring up ppg to argue that LeBron is the best of all time. I brought it up to show that LeBron isn't the choke artist that some seem to think he is. When his back is against the wall and he's facing elimination he was the highest ppg average in NBA history. In those games he also averages 10.8 rebounds and 7.1 assists. I'm not arguing that he's more clutch than Jordan. I'm not arguing that he has a better killer instinct than Jordan. I'm arguing that LeBron doesn't lack those characteristics and I'm including these statistics to support my argument. 

How does PPG prove he's not choking?

i really don't think much of any basketball stats. I think basketball is waiting on its own sabermetrics movement. 

If I'm a baseball scout I'd trust the numbers.  If I'm a basketball scout I'd trust my eyes for now  

 

[VO5 8,340]

Just now, Hoosierfan2017 said:

Oh I completely agree, I think it's flawed thinking too. I wish that he would always have a "screw it, get out of my way" attitude during those situations. I just think his way of thinking is so embedded in him that that's why he does what he does late in games. It frustrates me when I watch it (well except for the times it works lol). 

Lol yup agreed. I think if he had that "screw it" attitude he would probably be looked at in higher regard by people who think Jordan is better.

I'm not the biggest Lebron fan, but I do recognize his greatness. It's 1a and 1b as far as I'm concerned.

[Hoosierfan2017 25,312]

12 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said:

How does PPG prove he's not choking?

i really don't think much of any basketball stats. I think basketball is waiting on its own sabermetrics movement. 

If I'm a baseball scout I'd trust the numbers.  If I'm a basketball scout I'd trust my eyes for now  

 

It's not just ppg. His numbers in elimination games are better than his career playoffs averages. He elevates his play when he faces elimination. If he was choking then his elimination numbers wouldn't be better than his career averages. His advanced numbers are also elevated.

If you don't care about the individual statistics then I can go to winning percentage. He has a higher winning percentage in elimination games than Michael Jordan did. LeBron is 10-9 in elimination games, Jordan was 6-7. This doesn't show that LeBron is more clutch than Jordan, but it does give credence to the argument that he isn't "not clutch".

I think we get so hung up on the last 25-30 seconds of a game that we tend to ignore what happened in the first 47.5 minutes. 

[Brass Cannon 25,777]

Those sample sizes are way too small for any confidence even if that were a good indicator. Which it isn't. 

[HoosierTrav 8,339]

They needed a bench not another franchise player

A bench wasn't getting them past Cleveland in the east. They need to draft stars like GS and then add to the bench. This is if we want to talk about winning championships.


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