NBA Thread

[HoosierAloha 30,058]

5 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

Jordan only shot 43.4% from the field over his last three finals. The Bulls were a well-oiled machine, and he was the most important part, but he still had a great supporting cast. You can't just give him all the credit for their championships without acknowledging the help he had.

LeBron has never had help.  He's carried every team he's ever played on.  Hell, half the guys on those teams shouldn't be in the NBA.

MJ brought everyone up to his level.  LeBron dogs the teams, coaches, and owners he's around when things don't go his way.  When he wins it's "his team" but not all the time...

[IUfan_Charlie 3,867]

1 hour ago, HoosierAloha said:

If you gave Jordan LeBron's physical gifts I'm not sure he ever loses in the playoffs.

If you switched that I'm not sure LeBron is more than a role player.




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If LeBron was 6'6' 220 and freakishly athletic he'd still be a superstar. 

[HoosierAloha 30,058]

1 hour ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

Dwyane Wade won a championship in 2006, which, if you remember, many people thought was "stolen" from the Mavs by the NBA. He also had a pretty good teammate named Shaquille O'Neal that year. Wade shot more free throws in games 5 and 6 than the entire Mavs team. As much as you like to say that the NBA is the "NBE", I'm surprised that you're not all over that conspiracy. https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080911124226AA8MNiE

 

Wade then played in three more postseasons before Lebron came. He got swept in the first round in 06/07. He missed the playoffs entirely in 07/08. He went 15-67 that year. (He was hurt for part of the year, but he still played 51 games). He lost in the first round 3-4 in 08/09. He lost in the first round 1-4 in 09/10.

So, Wade won a championship without LeBron (but with Shaq) in 2006. The next four years he got bounced in the first round 3 times and won 15 games the other year. Then LeBron shows up and they go to 4 straight finals and win 2 championships. 

 

No, I don't remember.  I was flying all over the globe at that time and the least of my concerns was how many free throws Wade was shooting in the Finals.  The NBA (NBE) hasn't changed much though.  Did Pippen or Grant ever win a title without Jordan?

[HoosierAloha 30,058]

3 minutes ago, IUfan_Charlie said:

If LeBron was 6'6' 220 and freakishly athletic he'd still be a superstar. 

In the late 1980's and early 1990's?  I have my doubts.  When you can run over players or are physically superior to most that you play against it's much easier.  When you're targeted and get hacked every time you go to the rim it takes a certain toughness.  LeBron would have a solid player but not a superstar.  I imagine Jordan would be shooting Wade like FInals free throw numbers every game if he played today and got the same treatment. 

[Hoosierfan2017 21,161]

3 minutes ago, HoosierAloha said:

LeBron has never had help.  He's carried every team he's ever played on.  Hell, half the guys on those teams shouldn't be in the NBA.

MJ brought everyone up to his level.  LeBron dogs the teams, coaches, and owners he's around when things don't go his way.  When he wins it's "his team" but not all the time...

Alright man, you're not serious about having an actual discussion. Thanks for letting me know.

What does Richard Jefferson know? You surely have a better insight into the kind of teammate LeBron is!

https://twitter.com/FOXSports/status/986638554104086529

[Hoosierfan2017 21,161]

6 minutes ago, HoosierAloha said:

No, I don't remember.  I was flying all over the globe at that time and the least of my concerns was how many free throws Wade was shooting in the Finals.  The NBA (NBE) hasn't changed much though.  Did Pippen or Grant ever win a title without Jordan?

Pippen has won a playoff series without Michael Jordan. Jordan never won multiple playoff games without Scottie Pippen.

[HoosierAloha 30,058]

29 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

Alright man, you're not serious about having an actual discussion. Thanks for letting me know.

What does Richard Jefferson know? You surely have a better insight into the kind of teammate LeBron is!

https://twitter.com/FOXSports/status/986638554104086529

I've asked multiple questions that you've not answered or have answered with questions that move the goal posts.

Has LeBron dogged teammates?  Has he help rid the team of a coach?  Has he played GM and failed miserably? 

Here is the simplest explanation of "the greatest."  LeBron has had the greatest physical presence in the game that has allowed him to dominate the game for longer than anyone ever.  Michael has the advantage in mental and heart.  Who does LeBron strive to be/beat?  Unless LeBron can dominate the next 5 years with multiple championships I don't think he's close to contending as the greatest ever. 

He might have the greatest stats, he might be the best 1v1 player, and he will go down in history as a top 5 player.  In my opinion, he never touches Jordan's legacy.  It's that simple.  I've seen both play and maybe my opinion is a little skewed as I was young(er) when watching Jordan. 

I think a lot of what the NBA has gotten into over the last 20 years is more entertainment.  When the game is made a mockery it's tough to watch.  Who gets an extra step or 10?  Who gets the touch foul calls?  It's to build a brand and not pure basketball.  I don't think there is any question the athleticism is at an all time high and continues to move that way.  The stepping over the line on a free throw, the running from the block during a free throw, the 2 steps and then start to dribble, the off arm shove to create space, the "sniped" head toss, the ability to determine the outcome of a game through how and who gets called has all made a horrible impression to me of the NBE.  I thought they were better than that.

[mdn82 25,510]

Why are you entirely ignoring the fact that Scottie Pippen was one of the best defenders in the league when Jordan had him? He made 8 straight all-NBA defensive teams. Jordan didn't have to guard the other team's best player because he had Scottie. 
You're wanting to dismiss him, but look what happened the year Scottie didn't have Jordan. In 1992-1993, with Jordan, they won 57 games. The next year, without Jordan, they won 55 games. Seems like he wasn't half bad. If Jordan didn't have a great supporting cast why did they only lose 2 fewer games without him?

He really wasn’t though. That’s the thing. He got the accolades on the defensive end because he guarded the best wing offensive player on the other team. He was nothing special defensively. See, back in the 90s you still had to have a name to be considered a great defender. That’s where some of Jordan’s stats get inflated. Jordan was also a great defender but not as good as the awards would tell you at that end. If we are being real, I thought Grant was a better defender than Pippen. He was guarding Barkley, Worthy, and Malone in the finals.


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[mdn82 25,510]

Flagrant Foul on MDN.
 
Horace was my guy when I was a little kid and first started playing nba games. I always had to have him, Brian Grant, and Glen Rice on my Miami teams. lol I think it was NBA live 99 or 2000

Dude he was awesome. All I gotta say is NBA jam with Pippen.


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[Hoosierfan2017 21,161]

13 minutes ago, HoosierAloha said:

I've asked multiple questions that you've not answered or have answered with questions that move the goal posts.

Has LeBron dogged teammates?  Has he help rid the team of a coach?  Has he played GM and failed miserably? 

Here is the simplest explanation of "the greatest."  LeBron has had the greatest physical presence in the game that has allowed him to dominate the game for longer than anyone ever.  Michael has the advantage in mental and heart.  Who does LeBron strive to be/beat?  Unless LeBron can dominate the next 5 years with multiple championships I don't think he's close to contending as the greatest ever. 

He might have the greatest stats, he might be the best 1v1 player, and he will go down in history as a top 5 player.  In my opinion, he never touches Jordan's legacy.  It's that simple.  I've seen both play and maybe my opinion is a little skewed as I was young(er) when watching Jordan. 

I think a lot of what the NBA has gotten into over the last 20 years is more entertainment.  When the game is made a mockery it's tough to watch.  Who gets an extra step or 10?  Who gets the touch foul calls?  It's to build a brand and not pure basketball.  I don't think there is any question the athleticism is at an all time high and continues to move that way.  The stepping over the line on a free throw, the running from the block during a free throw, the 2 steps and then start to dribble, the off arm shove to create space, the "sniped" head toss, the ability to determine the outcome of a game through how and who gets called has all made a horrible impression to me of the NBE.  I thought they were better than that.

1. Has LeBron dogged teammates?

      - I guess? Depends on what you think "dogging teammates" is. Let's look at some of Jordan's quotes about his teammates. http://bleacherreport.com/articles/445705-i-wanna-be-like-wilt-not-like-mike

"You're an idiot. You've screwed up every play we ever ran. You're too stupid to even remember the plays. We ought to get rid of you." - Michael to Horace Grant

"They don't need a ticket to watch you sitting on the bench. They can go to your house for that." - Michael to Charles Davis who was sorting through his tickets for his family and friends

"I hate being out there with those garbage men. They don't get you the ball."

"He was scared in there and panicking. He just lost it when Stockton scored." - Michael on B.J. Armstrong's mental fragility"

"He can't do anything with the ball. Don't give it to him." - Michael yelling at Paxson who passed the ball to Purdue 

Then there were the multiple instances of Jordan punching teammates in the face.

 

2. Has he help rid the team of a coach?

     He didn't like David Blatt. Did he help them get rid of him? Probably. Not everyone is blessed with an all-time great head coach like Phil Jackson.

3. Has he played GM and failed miserably? 

     No. LeBron didn't want the Cavs to trade Kyrie, but they did anyway. The idea that he is the Cavs' GM and makes all the moves is a silly, played out narrative. Jordan has actually been a GM, and he failed miserably. Kwame Brown, anyone?

 

 

[mdn82 25,510]

What does any of that have to do with Lebron? I am confused? Trashing Jordan validates Lebron? Is that what you are getting at?


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[Hoosierfan2017 21,161]

4 minutes ago, mdn82 said:

What does any of that have to do with Lebron? I am confused? Trashing Jordan validates Lebron? Is that what you are getting at?


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No. He's using these things as ammunition against LeBron, yet the same things apply to Jordan so it's a wash. Is LeBron an a$$hole who gets on his teammates? Yeah, probably. But so what? Jordan did the same thing. 

[mdn82 25,510]

No. He's using these things as ammunition against LeBron, yet the same things apply to Jordan so it's a wash. Is LeBron an a$$hole who gets on his teammates? Yeah, probably. But so what? Jordan did the same thing. 

I don’t think anyone would suggest otherwise and it was well documented. I could find five articles in a matter of minutes on Jordan getting into a fight because he demanded perfection. Probably worded like that too because the media was scared of him.


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[HoosierAloha 30,058]

1 hour ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

1. Has LeBron dogged teammates?

      - I guess? Depends on what you think "dogging teammates" is. Let's look at some of Jordan's quotes about his teammates. http://bleacherreport.com/articles/445705-i-wanna-be-like-wilt-not-like-mike

"You're an idiot. You've screwed up every play we ever ran. You're too stupid to even remember the plays. We ought to get rid of you." - Michael to Horace Grant

"They don't need a ticket to watch you sitting on the bench. They can go to your house for that." - Michael to Charles Davis who was sorting through his tickets for his family and friends

"I hate being out there with those garbage men. They don't get you the ball."

"He was scared in there and panicking. He just lost it when Stockton scored." - Michael on B.J. Armstrong's mental fragility"

"He can't do anything with the ball. Don't give it to him." - Michael yelling at Paxson who passed the ball to Purdue 

Then there were the multiple instances of Jordan punching teammates in the face.

 

2. Has he help rid the team of a coach?

     He didn't like David Blatt. Did he help them get rid of him? Probably. Not everyone is blessed with an all-time great head coach like Phil Jackson.

3. Has he played GM and failed miserably? 

     No. LeBron didn't want the Cavs to trade Kyrie, but they did anyway. The idea that he is the Cavs' GM and makes all the moves is a silly, played out narrative. Jordan has actually been a GM, and he failed miserably. Kwame Brown, anyone?

 

 

Why did Kyrie want out?  He dogged his teammates enough to get them rings.  LeBron's "yeah, we have a chance because I'm the greatest."  Next thing you know yeah, this team is trash.  Michael pushed, or punched, his teammates and they got rings.  LeBron...?  Personal stats, conference championships, etc.

Why doesn't an all-time great want to coach LeBron?  If he's the greatest ever wouldn't a top coach have gone to Cleveland or Miami?  Not that he needs it, of course.

Jordan is a terrible GM but I don't think he was making moves for his entire team or flipping an entire roster.

[Hoosierfan2017 21,161]

31 minutes ago, HoosierAloha said:

Why did Kyrie want out?  He dogged his teammates enough to get them rings.  LeBron's "yeah, we have a chance because I'm the greatest."  Next thing you know yeah, this team is trash.  Michael pushed, or punched, his teammates and they got rings.  LeBron...?  Personal stats, conference championships, etc.

Why doesn't an all-time great want to coach LeBron?  If he's the greatest ever wouldn't a top coach have gone to Cleveland or Miami?  Not that he needs it, of course.

Jordan is a terrible GM but I don't think he was making moves for his entire team or flipping an entire roster.

Kyrie wanted to play in a big market and wanted to be "the guy" on his team. He knew that wasn't going to happen in Cleveland. Nothing wrong with that, but that's not on LeBron. Kyrie's dad is also Lavar Ball-like, so he had that voice whispering in his ear. 

Spoelstra is a pretty good coach. LeBron is a tough guy to coach, but he respected Pat Riley and listened to him. When he went back to Cleveland they had already hired David Blatt. Then when they fired him they promoted from within. The good coaches in the NBA are already settled into their teams. The Knicks did just hire Fizdale to try getting LeBron in free agency, though. 

Again, LeBron isn't the GM of the team. He wasn't the one who flipped half the roster. Sure, I assume he gives them his opinion, but it's not like he's up there calling the shots. 

[Crimson and Cream 5,788]

3 hours ago, HoosierAloha said:

LeBron has never had help.  He's carried every team he's ever played on.  Hell, half the guys on those teams shouldn't be in the NBA.

MJ brought everyone up to his level.  LeBron dogs the teams, coaches, and owners he's around when things don't go his way.  When he wins it's "his team" but not all the time...

That is just plain wrong. Those Miami teams had him, DWade, and Bosh. That's 2 1/2 superstars. He had Kyrie with him in his second stint in the Land. He's had plenty of help. And let's not even get started on the help he gets from the zebras (not taking away from the great player he is, but let's not deny the obvious either).

[Hoosierfan2017 21,161]

2 minutes ago, Crimson and Cream said:

That is just plain wrong. Those Miami teams had him, DWade, and Bosh. That's 2 1/2 superstars. He had Kyrie with him in his second stint in the Land. He's had plenty of help. And let's not even get started on the help he gets from the zebras (not taking away from the great player he is, but let's not deny the obvious either).

He's being sarcastic. 

But for someone who has had "plenty of help", it's pretty crazy that he's led his team in points, assists and rebounds in 3x as many games as the next closest player in NBA history. 

[Crimson and Cream 5,788]

1 minute ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

He's being sarcastic. 

But for someone who has had "plenty of help", it's pretty crazy that he's led his team in points, assists and rebounds in 3x as many games as the next closest player in NBA history. 

See I knew those two stanzas didn't match up at all lol. 

No I'm not denying his greatness or talent. He's obviously always been the best player on any of his teams (best player I've ever seen as I came along at the tail end of Michael's career), but I hate when people act like he won his rings all on his own. He's had plenty of help. Now this year and his first ring are two of the seasons where you could make an argument he's really carried a team on his back. 

[Hoosierfan2017 21,161]

9 minutes ago, Crimson and Cream said:

See I knew those two stanzas didn't match up at all lol. 

No I'm not denying his greatness or talent. He's obviously always been the best player on any of his teams (best player I've ever seen as I came along at the tail end of Michael's career), but I hate when people act like he won his rings all on his own. He's had plenty of help. Now this year and his first ring are two of the seasons where you could make an argument he's really carried a team on his back. 

Oh I don't disagree at all that he's had lots of help. I just get annoyed when I see things like "oh he had to team up with other superstars to win". Like, yeah, he's played with other great players. So did the other all time greats. Magic got drafted onto the Lakers when they already had Kareem. Larry Bird had Kevin McHale and Robert Parish. MJ had Pippen. Kobe had Shaq, etc. They all had front offices that could bring in talent so they didn't have to go out and do it on their own like LeBron. 

[Class of '66 Old Fart 84,346]

Houston advances and will face Golden State for the western conference title.  

5.08			W/L	Min.	Pts.	FG's	3's	FT's	Reb	Asst	TO	Stl	Blk	PF	+/-
Hou	EG	4-1	W	31	5	2-8	1-5	0-0	3	2	2	0	0	1	+1