Transfer Portal w IU Interest

[IH8PU 220]

5 minutes ago, btownqb said:

I never thought the grouping we had last year was the most talented team in the B1G, even in July. I'm not in tune with where 247, On3, Rivals rank these guys, I don't feel those sites are all that good at their jobs. 

So, I believe you, I just don't find it relevant to the talent we are (seemingly) adding. 

I agree. I was in fact surprised when that information was released about total 5 for each B1G team. All that told me was "where's the coaching then?" I like Cignetti's thought on star rankings. Ignore them. Obviously they mean little when every year you see players non-rated playing for a small name school only being a NCAAT star for a big name team.

If you can play ... you can play and that's all that matters in any college or pro sport.

[IU Prof 1,454]

7 minutes ago, btownqb said:

I never thought the grouping we had last year was the most talented team in the B1G, even in July. I'm not in tune with where 247, On3, Rivals rank these guys, I don't feel those sites are all that good at their jobs. 

Agree with the first part. But I think that for Carlyle at least, his recruiting ranking is most of the appeal. Otherwise, you're looking at a SG who shot 38.7% from the field and 32% from 3. Yes he was a freshman, but he'd be going from a defensively suspect PAC-12 to the B1G. 

[Certified Sunshine Pumper 9,942]

4 minutes ago, IU Prof said:

Don't know yet, there's still a lot TBD. But the broader point is that a lack of talent hasn't been IU's biggest issue the last few years. Style and coaching has. So I'm not sure that group really moves the needle that much over prior years.

See I don't agree. It's the accepted biggest issue amongst Indiana fans, yes. 

Relying on Walker, Cupps, Gunn, Banks, Leal for long stretches (even though multiple of those guys were alleged 4 stars), MM a FR, brand new role for TG/MR, and then your 24yr old PG is a complete idiot and can't stay healthy.. completely combats the "Indiana was uber talented last season" myth. 

You aren't sure if Ballo, Rice, KC, Hickman/Conwell, and Tucker move the needle? 

With the group I've listed-- we'd have 7 guys on our roster that have all avged 11p or more in a season at the D1 level, plus a McDs AA. 

Yes the pieces have to fit. 

[IU Prof 1,454]

3 minutes ago, btownqb said:

See I don't agree. It's the accepted biggest issue amongst Indiana fans, yes. 

Relying on Walker, Cupps, Gunn, Banks, Leal for long stretches (even though multiple of those guys were alleged 4 stars), MM a FR, brand new role for TG/MR, and then your 24yr old PG is a complete idiot and can't stay healthy.. completely combats the "Indiana was uber talented last season" myth. 

You aren't sure if Ballo, Rice, KC, Hickman/Conwell, and Tucker move the needle? 

With the group I've listed-- we'd have 7 guys on our roster that have all avged 11p or more in a season at the D1 level, plus a McDs AA. 

Yes the pieces have to fit. 

I'm not sure the hypothetical roster you laid out is best in the B1G. That's what I was saying.  Yes, though, I agree it is better than last year.

But last year isn't the only year I'm talking about. From my vantage point, IU has under performed from a results perspective versus its talent level (even if lacking in places) all three years under Woodson. So I see no reason next year will change that. 

Put differently, this group might get Woodson into a 5-8 seed range for the NCAA, but he isn't taking it to an Elite 8 or Final 4.

[Home Jersey 11,964]

2 minutes ago, IU Prof said:

Agree with the first part. But I think that for Carlyle at least, his recruiting ranking is most of the appeal. Otherwise, you're looking at a SG who shot 38.7% from the field and 32% from 3. Yes he was a freshman, but he'd be going from a defensively suspect PAC-12 to the B1G. 

Carlyle dropped 28 on Arizona on 7/13 shooting from the field and 8-8 from the FT line. 

Career high 31 on Washington State shot 56% from the field and 60% from 3

22 vs Oregon State. Bunch of other games in double figures. 

Not sure how he holds up on defense but I don't think the offense is what we worry about with Carlyle as a sophomore.

[Feathery 4,005]

5 minutes ago, IU Prof said:

Agree in general, but there's also more to roster construction than just "good guards" or "bad guards". With Reneau and Ballo clogging the paint, Carlyle won't have the driving lanes needed to thrive. And from the video I've seen, he needs to do a lot of work on his form (shooting base in particluar) to become the consistent 3 point threat the rest of this hypothetical roster needs at the 2.

Big picture I agree with you on the 2 bigs. Not the style I want to see or like. I said weeks ago I wouldn’t be upset if Reneau left and got lots of push back. He is our best post player and we won’t have any talent without him type responses. But we have a HC who has his style. 
 

To a fault I expect improvement from freshman to sophomore year. So we shall see what happens with Carlyle. But as a Freshman Carlyle was 32% from 3, and 77.6% from the FT line. That’s a great starting spot for improvement. Even just a moderate 2% increase in 3 pt shooting and the defense will not be sagging off of him bc he will be shooting too well from deep. Those stats are even after it looks like he hit a freshman wall in the last month of his season. 

[IH8PU 220]

2 minutes ago, btownqb said:

Walker, Cupps, Gunn, Banks, Leal vs Ballo, Rice, KC, Hickman/Conwell, and Tucker

Holy S***!!!!! 

For me that puts my needle over the speed limit ... yes they have to fit ... but I am more concerned what's the destination and who is driving this out of control car. So to speak. But ... I love to speed.

[Certified Sunshine Pumper 9,942]

1 minute ago, IU Prof said:

Agree with the first part. But I think that for Carlyle at least, his recruiting ranking is most of the appeal. Otherwise, you're looking at a SG who shot 38.7% from the field and 32% from 3. Yes he was a freshman, but he'd be going from a defensively suspect PAC-12 to the B1G. 

11p 3r 3a and 32% from as a FR is solid.

We've had ONE FR guard the last handful of years that had the capability of doing that in a P5 conference. ONE since Romeo.  And the appealing part for KC, for me, has nothing at all to do with his ranking (I am not even sure where he was ranked).. 

It's the fact he was able to have those numbers with little help. Insert-- Rice, TG, Ballo, MM, and MR-- KC will be more efficient. 

[Certified Sunshine Pumper 9,942]

1 minute ago, IH8PU said:

Holy S***!!!!! 

For me that puts my needle over the speed limit ... yes they have to fit ... but I am more concerned what's the destination and who is driving this out of control car. So to speak. But ... I love to speed.

I just thought we could seperate the two entities. I understand most people's filter coming here is "I'm so sick of Woodson/play style/whatever else" --- I just don't think we have to proclaim it in each post to have a discussion on the talent we seem to hopefully be adding. 

[Certified Sunshine Pumper 9,942]

7 minutes ago, IU Prof said:

I'm not sure the hypothetical roster you laid out is best in the B1G. That's what I was saying.  Yes, though, I agree it is better than last year.

But last year isn't the only year I'm talking about. From my vantage point, IU has under performed from a results perspective versus its talent level (even if lacking in places) all three years under Woodson. So I see no reason next year will change that. 

Put differently, this group might get Woodson into a 5-8 seed range for the NCAA, but he isn't taking it to an Elite 8 or Final 4.

I'm just talking personnel. 

I don't really see a B1G that would be all that close talent wise on paper. 

[IU Prof 1,454]

8 minutes ago, btownqb said:

I just thought we could seperate the two entities. I understand most people's filter coming here is "I'm so sick of Woodson/play style/whatever else" --- I just don't think we have to proclaim it in each post to have a discussion on the talent we seem to hopefully be adding. 

That's totally fair. But on the other hand, it's hard not to point out the coaching deficiencies when people start talking about most talented team in the B1G, etc.

[Feathery 4,005]

11 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

You can play two bigs, that isn't the issue.  I didn't watchmuch of UConn but it seemed to me that while Karaban was a "big" he wasn't a big who needed to be in the same space as Klingan to be effective.  Ballo and Reneau both basically need to get the ball in the same areas of the floor to be effective.  I think Ware had more range this year but we didn't put him out on the floor, we put him in a clogged lane with Reneau.  Both of those guys generally wanted the ball in the same space.

That is what people mean when they say 2 bigs.  It isn't so much that they are big players with height.  It is that they get in each other's way on the floor because they both want/need the ball in the same areas of the court which makes them easier to guard and also tends to decrease options for other guys on the court.

Additionally, these guards we are bringing have better stats but the majority of their better play appears to be oriented around getting into the paint.  They MAY turn into good shooters but their numbers behind the arc last year aren't ones that say they WILL be better than average shooters.

Offense is about creating a bunch of options to score and then having the right guys to take advantage of those options.  Playing Ballo and Reneau at the same time reduces options in ways that playing Clingan and Karaban doesn't for UConn.

What’s a good 3pt shooter to you in today’s game, post line getting moved back? 
 

I’m well aware of what people’s complaints are about the style and 2 bigs. But let’s be honest, IU runs a ton of pick and role. We would see Malik and Ware both be at the 3 or line setting a pick and then rolling. That’s not just 2 guys standing in the lane like statues. Yes there were plenty of throw it down low and let them work too. But in the pick and role the guards we are targeting are not going to be running into our own bigs and both their defenders at the same time, as one of the bigs will be out at the 3 or line setting the pick. 

[Gnet550 956]

35 minutes ago, Feathery said:

In today’s society your aunt could have nuts. Just sayin. 

But then she’d be your uncle….

[rayl456 632]

7 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

You can play two bigs, that isn't the issue.  I didn't watchmuch of UConn but it seemed to me that while Karaban was a "big" he wasn't a big who needed to be in the same space as Klingan to be effective.  Ballo and Reneau both basically need to get the ball in the same areas of the floor to be effective.  I think Ware had more range this year but we didn't put him out on the floor, we put him in a clogged lane with Reneau.  Both of those guys generally wanted the ball in the same space.

That is what people mean when they say 2 bigs.  It isn't so much that they are big players with height.  It is that they get in each other's way on the floor because they both want/need the ball in the same areas of the court which makes them easier to guard and also tends to decrease options for other guys on the court.

Additionally, these guards we are bringing have better stats but the majority of their better play appears to be oriented around getting into the paint.  They MAY turn into good shooters but their numbers behind the arc last year aren't ones that say they WILL be better than average shooters.

Offense is about creating a bunch of options to score and then having the right guys to take advantage of those options.  Playing Ballo and Reneau at the same time reduces options in ways that playing Clingan and Karaban doesn't for UConn.

Reneau and Karaban are as different as night and day athletically and as basketball players.  Both may be 6’8” or whatever and be labeled as “big’s” or “4’s”, but that’s where the similarities end.  Karaban is pretty damn dynamic and Reneau…not so much.

[Golfman25 6,229]

8 hours ago, AH1971 said:

Clingan was the highest usage player on the team this last season as was Sonogo the year prior. 
 

And your comment is exactly what I’m talking about, passing it into the post and waiting for your 5 to shoot isn’t what playing through the post means.

It is at IU.  And that’s the problem.  
Then look at Painter and Edey.  Uconn let him score his points and defended the perimeter = National Championship.  You need to be more dynamic than just post play.  

[Home Jersey 11,964]

4 minutes ago, rayl456 said:

Reneau and Karaban are as different as night and day athletically and as basketball players.  Both may be 6’8” or whatever and be labeled as “big’s” or “4’s”, but that’s where the similarities end.  Karaban is pretty damn dynamic and Reneau…not so much.

Eh. 

Karaban is a shooter. Reneau is a post scorer. 

Both are questionable defenders.

Malik averaged more rebounds, assists, points, on better FG%

Reneau showed the ability to step out and knock down 3s this year, if he expands that part of his game and gets better at passing out of the post, he would be way more "dynamic" IMO than Karaban who is more of a system passer in their offense than a playmaking, creative passer you'd call dynamic. Karaban is a good player, great in their system, but he looks better because of where he plays IMO. 

[Feathery 4,005]

3 minutes ago, btownqb said:

I'm just talking personnel. 

I don't really see a B1G that would be all that close talent wise on paper. 

Not to rub salt in the wound of the Dusty May fans but it seems he could have a decent roster in year 1. But overall, I think the conference is going to be middling. Everyone needs to fill out their rosters still but there isn’t going to be a standout team and what you proposed could literally be the best in the conference. That should get ppl excited even if they want Woody gone. To me it’s a put up or shut up situation for Woody. He will have the roster to get a possible conference title. Which means a good seed and the expectations will be a 2nd weekend run. I’m cool with that, even if the style is what I prefer. 

[Golfman25 6,229]

1 hour ago, IU Prof said:

This is all correct. Unfortunately,  the bolded part is the key. And that's something that Woodson has never shown any ability or interest in implementing. Instead, he sticks shooters in the corner and has them stand there for the entire possession.

UConn ran an extremely complex and dynamic modern offensive system. IU plays through the post in a 1990s sense. Two completely different animals, to the point that analogizing them is offensive to what Hurley has implemented.

Exactly.  How many times did we see Kopp sit in the corner.  How many times was it leal or whomever was playing that spot. The ball goes into the post to die, trying to force things thru double and triple teams. 

[Home Jersey 11,964]

I'd like to think the idea is that, if we get Ballo, we'll see Reneau being able to step outside more to stretch the floor, Ballo cleaning up the glass on missed 3s with some crashing and some getting back on D. I think we'll see a combination of that and the buddy ball we're used to in the paint, which we'll see about... Malik's passing is not really there yet, but maybe it gets better this offseason. Depending on how much leash we give to shoot 3s and how good we are at making them (any chance for Rice, Carlyle, AND Hickman?) the offense is less of my concern than the defense. 

I assume Conwell is a no if we have Rice and Carlyle both younger and needing minutes. Hickman maybe more likely though since he has just 1 year and is transferring up a level/buddies with Leal, etc.? Let's hope... I think to me, he would be the difference between a good and a great haul, along with whoever the back up four is (again this is all counting eggs before they hatch in Ballo, Rice, Carlyle). 

[Home Jersey 11,964]

2 minutes ago, Golfman25 said:

Exactly.  How many times did we see Kopp sit in the corner.  How many times was it leal or whomever was playing that spot. The ball goes into the post to die, trying to force things thru double and triple teams. 

And part of why UConn was able to run those complex sets was because they had good continuity from last year's roster. You're not going to be able to install something like that IMO with a group of 5ish new rotation players in just one offseason.