Fire Coach Woodson Thread

[Juwan Moye 213]

12 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

Purdue had that the past two seasons and still managed to take 20+ threes a game. Maybe it is rocket science? 

Or just basic science. It’s not our coaches job to get guys shots, the best coach in the business said so.

[Schreckbagger 562]

Kopp and Galloway shot north of 40% that season. Why not get them more 3’s that year? That’s even more efficient than TJD shooting two’s.     

One might argue the combo together might get a tan into that vaunted top 15 offense. Yet, we were nearly last in the country in 3s attempted despite being one of the best 3P shooting teams.  

 

 

 

 

 

With an All American center, you feed the post first, always. The 210 FT's at 70%, is why. I can't find stats to back it up, but would guess a high percent for TJD were "and ones".  

40% on 10 3's = 12 pts

 

60% on 10 2's = 12 pts

Add in 3 to 4 pts for FT's =

15-16 pts

 

Feed the post.

 

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[str8baller 4,845]

2 minutes ago, Schreckbagger said:

With an All American center, you feed the post first, always. The 210 FT's are at 70% are why. I can't find stats to back it up, but would guess a high percent for TJD were "and ones".

40% on 10 3's = 12 pts

60% on 10 2's = 12 pts
Add in 3 to 4 pts for FT's =
15-16 pts

Feed the post.

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TJD shot 58% from 2. Reneau shot 59% from 2 last year.  
 

Both seasons we shot about 15 3’s a game, nearly last in the NCAA. 
 

So I guess your conclusion is that as long as Reneau shoots 58+% again from 2, we can count on shooting about 15 3’s per game as a team? 

[Hoosierfan2017 20,096]

7 minutes ago, Schreckbagger said:

With an All American center, you feed the post first, always. The 210 FT's are at 70% are why. I can't find stats to back it up, but would guess a high percent for TJD were "and ones".

40% on 10 3's = 12 pts

60% on 10 2's = 12 pts
Add in 3 to 4 pts for FT's =
15-16 pts

Feed the post.

Sent from my SM-S906U using BtownBanners mobile app
 

Again, you’re ignoring that Purdue had all that and then some with Zach Edey but still managed to shoot 5 more threes a game than IU. 

But that’s the difference between a real modern basketball coach and Mike Woodson. 

[Golfman25 4,834]

8 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

Again, you’re ignoring that Purdue had all that and then some with Zach Edey but still managed to shoot 5 more threes a game than IU. 

But that’s the difference between a real modern basketball coach and Mike Woodson. 

Until Uconn was able to keep Edey in check, guard the 3 point line, and then rain threes on offense.  6/22 vs. 1/7 was all the difference in the game.  Someone said 3 is worth more than 2.  :)  

[Feathery 4,005]

53 minutes ago, str8baller said:

Kopp and Galloway shot north of 40% that season. Why not get them more 3’s that year? That’s even more efficient than TJD shooting two’s.   
 

One might argue the combo together might get a tan into that vaunted top 15 offense. Yet, we were nearly last in the country in 3s attempted despite being one of the best 3P shooting teams.  
 

 

 

They passed open many open 3’s that year. Could Woody emphasize getting to the rim? Sure. Has he actively said don’t shoot 3’s? No he hasn’t. In fact the players have actively passed up on open 3’s on their own. 

[IU Prof 735]

5 minutes ago, Feathery said:

They passed open many open 3’s that year. Could Woody emphasize getting to the rim? Sure. Has he actively said don’t shoot 3’s? No he hasn’t. In fact the players have actively passed up on open 3’s on their own. 

I just don't get this argument. IU had been in the 300s in 3 point attempts consistently under Woodson. At this point, even if your theory is correct that this is all just in-game player decision making, then at this point that still falls on Woodson's shoulders for not correcting the issue after three seasons...

[AH1971 1,183]

5 minutes ago, IU Prof said:

I just don't get this argument. IU had been in the 300s in 3 point attempts consistently under Woodson. At this point, even if your theory is correct that this is all just in-game player decision making, then at this point that still falls on Woodson's shoulders for not correcting the issue after three seasons...

I just can't fathom an argument where you'd advocate a collection of Galloway, Cupps, Xavier Johnson (when healthy), and Anthony Leal shooting MORE three pointers than they already did. Did we watch the same team last year? It was painful watching any of those guys shoot the ball and more times than not, they were wide open. And for reason, THEY CAN'T SHOOT. Mgbako was the only playing on the team I felt comfortable with shooting the ball. 

[IU Prof 735]

2 minutes ago, AH1971 said:

I just can't fathom an argument where you'd advocate a collection of Galloway, Cupps, Xavier Johnson (when healthy), and Anthony Leal shooting MORE three pointers than they already did. Did we watch the same team last year? It was painful watching any of those guys shoot the ball and more times than not, they were wide open. And for reason, THEY CAN'T SHOOT. Mgbako was the only playing on the team I felt comfortable with shooting the ball. 

I can't fathom why you keep conflating an argument based on three years data down to just the most recent season. 

I'm also perplexed at why you argued two months ago that Woodson's offense was antiquated, but then said last night it wasn't a problem. But then earlier today you argued Woodson clearly intends to change the offense given the roster additions. I'm seriously confused at this point...

[Schreckbagger 562]

Again, you’re ignoring that Purdue had all that and then some with Zach Edey but still managed to shoot 5 more threes a game than IU. 
But that’s the difference between a real modern basketball coach and Mike Woodson. 

Doesn't matter who it is with an A+ post player, you go there first. Are you gonna have Cupps, Gallo, and X shooting 3's for you versus TJD posting up? Really? I wanna hear that story.

We didn't have he shooters to play that game. Week backcourt last year, can't , and apparently won't continue.

Gotta have shooters....

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[Feathery 4,005]

10 minutes ago, IU Prof said:

I just don't get this argument. IU had been in the 300s in 3 point attempts consistently under Woodson. At this point, even if your theory is correct that this is all just in-game player decision making, then at this point that still falls on Woodson's shoulders for not correcting the issue after three seasons...

Because the guards outside of Shafino have been bad players. The talent has not been there. Ppl complain about in the 300’s but the talent at the guards, where most teams put up their 3pt volume, is the reason. Galloway with volume dropped his % by 20 percentage points. He isn’t a good shooter. Gunn was streaky at best and a terrible 2 pt shooter. The players themselves have said they aren’t coached to pass the shots. The players pass the shots up on their own bc they know they aren’t good shooters from deep.
 

The system has given them open looks and they don’t shoot them. Every game thread people post shoot the ball, bc of all the open 3’s players don’t shoot. 
 

I’ve posted elsewhere the stats show that with the rosters we have had the most efficient play was not to have bad shooters shoot from deep. But to play through the highly efficient good post players. If you had bad shooter shoot more the PPP goes down even more. 

[Schreckbagger 562]

TJD shot 58% from 2. Reneau shot 59% from 2 last year.  
 
Both seasons we shot about 15 3’s a game, nearly last in the NCAA. 
 
So I guess your conclusion is that as long as Reneau shoots 58+% again from 2, we can count on shooting about 15 3’s per game as a team? 

Different year, different players, different skills, different team. Probably won't see the same game, who knows. Watch the guards next year, it'll tell you how successful IU will be.

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[IU Prof 735]

1 minute ago, Feathery said:

Because the guards outside of Shafino have been bad players. The talent has not been there. Ppl complain about in the 300’s but the talent at the guards, where most teams put up their 3pt volume, is the reason. Galloway with volume dropped his % by 20 percentage points. He isn’t a good shooter. Gunn was streaky at best and a terrible 2 pt shooter. The players themselves have said they aren’t coached to pass the shots. The players pass the shots up on their own bc they know they aren’t good shooters from deep.
 

The system has given them open looks and they don’t shoot them. Every game thread people post shoot the ball, bc of all the open 3’s players don’t shoot. 
 

I’ve posted elsewhere the stats show that with the rosters we have had the most efficient play was not to have bad shooters shoot from deep. But to play through the highly efficient good post players. If you had bad shooter shoot more the PPP goes down even more. 

Did Woodson want guys shooting more 3s the last three years or not? First you say he did, then you say he didn't. 

[AH1971 1,183]

18 minutes ago, IU Prof said:

I can't fathom why you keep conflating an argument based on three years data down to just the most recent season. 

I'm also perplexed at why you argued two months ago that Woodson's offense was antiquated, but then said last night it wasn't a problem. But then earlier today you argued Woodson clearly intends to change the offense given the roster additions. I'm seriously confused at this point...

No need to be confused. Pretty clear Woodson's offense has been tailored to its personnel and we knew that'd be the case the first two seasons with TJD. Year 3 rolls around and he whiffed in getting some of the high impact guard transfers he targeted and bet on Galloway and Johnson being better than any tier 2 or 3 options. It clearly backfired. 

But given the personnel IU rolled with last year, I'm not sure how or even why you would have even wanted IU to play a more perimeter-oriented offense?? Imagine Ware and Reneau each taking 2-3 less shots a game with those shots going to Galloway, Cupps, Johnson, etc from the perimeter? 

But he substantially upgraded the back court this season and it's more than plausible to see a new look that tailors to the new personnel. Rice and Carlyle did not come to IU to dribble the ball up the court and pass it down low to Ballo and Reneau 30-35 times a game and stand around the perimeter. I will assure you of that and no amount of money changes that. Those two both have legit NBA aspirations that go out the window playing that style of basketball. These guys aren't stupid. 

[Hoosierfan2017 20,096]

14 minutes ago, Schreckbagger said:

Doesn't matter who it is with an A+ post player, you go there first. Are you gonna have Cupps, Gallo, and X shooting 3's for you versus TJD posting up? Really? I wanna hear that story.

We didn't have he shooters to play that game. Week backcourt last year, can't , and apparently won't continue.

Gotta have shooters....

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Cupps never played with TJD. Was he going to run onto the court from the crowd to shoot 3s? Miller Kopp shot 45% from 3 in conference play and Galloway shot 47% from 3 in conference play during TJD’s senior season. Why would you not want to get two 45% shooters more 3s? It’s not rocket science. 

But, of course, getting them shots wasn’t Woody’s job. 

[Feathery 4,005]

6 minutes ago, IU Prof said:

Did Woodson want guys shooting more 3s the last three years or not? First you say he did, then you say he didn't. 

No im saying he didn’t tell them to not shoot them. That the player aren’t good enough to shoot in high volume and this their confidence was low and they passed them up. Thats a player problem. The Woody problem is he didn’t recruit quality shooters and chose to play through the post bc of the roster he made. 
 

the analytics portion shows to have a better offensive efficiency with the group of players we had it wasn’t to shoot more 3’s with bad players. You complained about being 300 on shooting 3 attempts. The data shows we would have been even worse with the same players shooting it more from deep. 

[IU Prof 735]

5 minutes ago, AH1971 said:

No need to be confused.

You two months ago: "If  I wanted to watch a team with a poor, antiquated offense who doesn't defend the 3 point line I'd simply revert to watching Mike Woodson."

https://btownbanners.com/topic/12809-general-coach-candidate-news/?page=802&tab=comments#comment-866651

 

You last night: "There’s  nothing wrong with Woodson’s system"

https://btownbanners.com/topic/14310-fire-coach-woodson-assessment-of-former-posters/?page=1047&tab=comments#comment-903105

You this morning: "We  didn't bring back Mgbako and pay a boatload to get Carlyle and  Rice to run the same offense."

https://btownbanners.com/topic/14310-fire-coach-woodson-assessment-of-former-posters/?page=1048&tab=comments#comment-903176

 

Not confusing at all...

[IU Prof 735]

12 minutes ago, Feathery said:

No im saying he didn’t tell them to not shoot them. That the player aren’t good enough to shoot in high volume and this their confidence was low and they passed them up. Thats a player problem. The Woody problem is he didn’t recruit quality shooters and chose to play through the post bc of the roster he made. 
 

the analytics portion shows to have a better offensive efficiency with the group of players we had it wasn’t to shoot more 3’s with bad players. You complained about being 300 on shooting 3 attempts. The data shows we would have been even worse with the same players shooting it more from deep. 

This whole argument has gotten tiresome. First it's that Woodson’s system works, the players just didn't take the shots. Then it's that Woodson didn't want guys to shoot (even though both Kopp and Galloway were very effective year 2), because IU's guards sucked last year. 

Either way, the blame falls on Woodson. It was utterly apparent that the backcourt talent and depth was insufficient heading into last season. If Woodson didn't trust XJ/Gallo/Gunn/etc., then that just makes the failure to upgrade even more problematic.

It's been three years, and every year IU has been in the 300s in 3 point shooting volume under Woodson. Players or scheme, that's a coaching issue. End of story.

[Hoosierfan2017 20,096]

We’ve taken 22+ threes in a game 16 times during the 103 games Mike Woodson has coached at IU. 15.5% of his games. We did it 4 times in 33 games this past season. But, sure, we’re going to start averaging 22+ a game now. Very likely. 

[Feathery 4,005]

45 minutes ago, IU Prof said:

This whole argument has gotten tiresome. First it's that Woodson’s system works, the players just didn't take the shots. Then it's that Woodson didn't want guys to shoot (even though both Kopp and Galloway were very effective year 2), because IU's guards sucked last year. 

Either way, the blame falls on Woodson. It was utterly apparent that the backcourt talent and depth was insufficient heading into last season. If Woodson didn't trust XJ/Gallo/Gunn/etc., then that just makes the failure to upgrade even more problematic.

It's been three years, and every year IU has been in the 300s in 3 point shooting volume under Woodson. Players or scheme, that's a coaching issue. End of story.

lol. Are you being intentionally obtuse? The issue is the players have not been good enough. The system does get open 3’s. Having them shoot more isn’t the answer. The fans wanted more 3’s taken. Woodson never told them to shoot it less. The teams just have been mediocre to bad and the talent hasn’t fit. 
 

Totally agree the talent/recruting/roster composition falls squarely on Woodson. Thats the winning argument. The lazy arguement I’m tired of seeing is argh shoot more 3’s, 300th in nation in attempts. Rage. I’m a guy who wanted a change but ppl are just throwing out stuff to be angry about without it actually making sense with the actual causation.