IUBB vs #13/12 Ohio State - 01/06/22 @ 7:00 on FS1

[Hoosierfan2017 20,693]

19 minutes ago, Stuhoo said:

Or if collectively, Mike Woodson, Armond Hill, Yas, Dane Fife, Thad Matta, and Kenya Hunter, with ALL of their collective experience, think that Phin helps us win and are wrong.

Gawd, it feels completely ridiculous to even type that.

Sometimes the hate for Phinisee borders on the ludicrous. For me? He helps us win, especially when he’s guarding the point but playing SG on offense.

Thad Matta is the only person on that list who moves the needle for me and he isn’t even on the coaching staff. The only ludicrous thing here is the amount of love Phinisee gets despite being wholly mediocre. I’ve never seen anything like it. If you think he helps us win then fine. I disagree, but whatever. This conversation has been about his offense. It’s indisputable that he’s a horrible shooter. We have a 97 game college career as proof. If you want to play him for his defense, tell him to stop throwing up so many bricks on the offensive end. His field goal percentage is 10% lower than the second lowest guy’s. 

[Stuhoo 79,274]

4 minutes ago, MikeRoberts said:

 

the point that was made was that our worst shooter is taking as many shots as our best shooter and that is a problem. 

Are you trying to argue against that? Would love to see this argument 

See Roth, Matt. Our best shooter rarely has the ball in his hands. When he does he either catches and shoots, or defers to other players.

I loved the left handed finish in the lane by Parker last game. That was an outlier moment.

PS—I am glad you will love to see this. Always need more love in the world.

[Stuhoo 79,274]

5 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

Thad Matta is the only person on that list who moves the needle for me and he isn’t even on the coaching staff. The only ludicrous thing here is the amount of love Phinisee gets despite being wholly mediocre. I’ve never seen anything like it. If you think he helps us win then fine. I disagree, but whatever. This conversation has been about his offense. It’s indisputable that he’s a horrible shooter. We have a 97 game college career as proof. If you want to play him for his defense, tell him to stop throwing up so many bricks on the offensive end. His field goal percentage is 10% lower than the second lowest guy’s. 

If Armond Hill and Mike Woodson don’t “move the needle” for you, then I now understand why you feel the way you feel.

[Hoosierfan2017 20,693]

18 minutes ago, Stuhoo said:

Derek Elston also took more shots per 40 minutes than Matt Roth. Better?

Derek Elston shot 50% from the field in 2012. If Phinisee shot 50% from the field, no one would be complaining about him shooting. But the only place he shoots 50% from is the free throw line. Hell, Derek Elston shot 55.2% from 3 in 2012 on one attempt per game. Him shooting the ball wasn’t per se bad. He had a 57.6 TS%. Phinisee is at a 36.9 TS%, which is honestly the lowest I’ve seen for a rotational player. 

So, I really have no idea what point you’re trying to make here except to stand up for Phinisee. The difference between Elston shooting and Roth shooting is nowhere near as big as the difference between Stewart shooting and Phinisee shooting (or Phinisee shooting over any other player on the team).

[HoosierAloha 30,024]

WTH!

Are we trying to lose defending Phin’s inability to MAKE?! I like his grit and defense, for the most part. In what world should he be taking as many shots as P Stew? It’s not a democracy on offense. That’s losing basketball. Your best makers should be taking the most shots from where they shoot the highest percentage.

It’s simple, don’t complicate it. Run stuff to get your best makers the highest percentage shots and win ******* basketball games.


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[Stuhoo 79,274]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armond_Hill

Needle mover 

[Hoosierfan2017 20,693]

6 minutes ago, Stuhoo said:

If Armond Hill and Mike Woodson don’t “move the needle” for you, then I now understand why you feel the way you feel.

Mike Woodson won 46% of his games as an NBA head coach and hadn’t been a head coach since 2013. What needle is he supposed to move? 

Armond Hill is a former NBA player and former NBA assistant coach. Is that supposed to move the needle for me in and of itself? He was a head coach once, at Columbia, from 1995-2003. He went 72-141. He was fired in 2003 after going 2-25, literally the worst season in Columbia’s 100 year basketball history. 

So, yeah, not moving the needle for me. Some have the tendency to pump up our staff regardless of who they are. I remember how awesome Archie’s coaching staff was going to be. 

[Stuhoo 79,274]

13 minutes ago, HoosierAloha said:

WTH!

Are we trying to lose defending Phin’s inability to MAKE?! I like his grit and defense, for the most part. In what world should he be taking as many shots as P Stew? It’s not a democracy on offense. That’s losing basketball. Your best makers should be taking the most shots from where they shoot the highest percentage.

It’s simple, don’t complicate it. Run stuff to get your best makers the highest percentage shots and win ******* basketball games.


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I agree with u there!

Parker Stewart is an infinitely better shooter and maker than Phinisee.

If the question is “why doesn’t Stewart shoot more and Phinisee shoot less?” There is a real reason.

Im sure the staff would love to get Stewart more  looks. Stewart gets game planned  by the opposition—they don’t ever double off of him and his shot opportunities are limited as a result.

[HoosierHoopster 6,686]

7 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

Thad Matta is the only person on that list who moves the needle for me and he isn’t even on the coaching staff. The only ludicrous thing here is the amount of love Phinisee gets despite being wholly mediocre. I’ve never seen anything like it. If you think he helps us win then fine. I disagree, but whatever. This conversation has been about his offense. It’s indisputable that he’s a horrible shooter. We have a 97 game college career as proof. If you want to play him for his defense, tell him to stop throwing up so many bricks on the offensive end. His field goal percentage is 10% lower than the second lowest guy’s. 

Thing is, Rob and X together are clearly helping us win, go back and watch the OSU game, 2d half, the game vid is posted here, watch how, together they built that 16 point lead, watch Rob repeatedly tie up, force TO’s, initiate a break, swing the rock to the right place. Woodson is far from stupid, he’s playing the guys who help us win and Rob’s one of them, especially together with X - think of it as the sum is greater than the parts thing. Yes, Rob’s individual shooting, and solo primary ball handler game hasn’t been where it should be, but think your focus on that leads to over looking how he helps the team. And his D is big, this team turns D to O, in transition, because, so far, it has to.

and we’re the best D1 team in the country defending the 2 ball, Rob is a big part of that, I don’t think that is fairly questionable.

[Stuhoo 79,274]

6 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

. 

So, yeah, not moving the needle for me. Some have the tendency to pump up our staff regardless of who they are. I remember how awesome Archie’s coaching staff was going to be. 

Thad Matta has been very successful, but most people who know a hell of a lot more about basketball than me or you would also say that Woodson and Hill’s resume coaching the best players in the world is pretty ******* impressive.

Are you inferring a comparison between them and Ostrom/Mike Roberts? Yikes

[JSHoosier 19,741]

10 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

Mike Woodson won 46% of his games as an NBA head coach and hadn’t been a head coach since 2013. What needle is he supposed to move? 

Armond Hill is a former NBA player and former NBA assistant coach. Is that supposed to move the needle for me in and of itself? He was a head coach once, at Columbia, from 1995-2003. He went 72-141. He was fired in 2003 after going 2-25, literally the worst season in Columbia’s 100 year basketball history. 

So, yeah, not moving the needle for me. Some have the tendency to pump up our staff regardless of who they are. I remember how awesome Archie’s coaching staff was going to be. 

Matta is the most impressive name on that list, maybe the only one.  Woodson played here, take that away and I don't think anyone one this board would like that hire and frankly without it wouldn’t have been considered.

[MikeRoberts 6,914]

18 minutes ago, Stuhoo said:

See Roth, Matt. Our best shooter rarely has the ball in his hands. When he does he either catches and shoots, or defers to other players.

I loved the left handed finish in the lane by Parker last game. That was an outlier moment.

PS—I am glad you will love to see this. Always need more love in the world.

Love is love:)

I have made it clear in other threads - I like this staff and think they have the ability to do good things here. As others have said, that doesn’t mean they don’t make mistakes nor that there are things to improve on.

for me, the lack of plays run for Parker Stewart and, or his lack of effort to get open is a problem. His value is his shooting. In the same vein, Phinisee can do good things but shooting is rarely rarely one of them, yet he continues to put up shots… why? He finds himself open for a reason. If you are always open, there is a reason for that, other teams are begging him to shoot, it’s usually as good as a turnover.

know your role and play that role. Offensively Phinisee doesn’t offer much and when he’s shooting he is a detriment 

[Hoosierfan2017 20,693]

7 minutes ago, Stuhoo said:

Thad Matta has been very successful, but most people who know a hell of a lot more about basketball than me or you would say that Woodson and Hill’s resume coaching the best players in the world is pretty ******* impressive.

If Woodson’s resume was so impressive then some college team would have tried hiring him at some point during his career. No one did, except IU. 

5x Big Ten champ, 4x Big Ten Tournament champ, and 2 final four appearances? Yeah, that’s pretty impressive. Let’s hire a guy with that track record. Woodson and Hill were NBA journeymen with lots of assistant coach stops. Woodson had a couple head coaching stops, was mediocre, and went back to being an assistant coach. However impressive someone finds that is up to themselves. If Woody didn’t play at IU, almost everyone would’ve hated the hire. 

What I hate is the way people appeal to authority whenever anyone questions coaching decisions. “Oh, so you think you know more than XYZ?!?” It’s not even like we’re questioning proven college coaches. Thad Matta is the only guy with college basketball head coaching success, and he’s not even on the coaching staff. Archie had more college success than anyone on our staff and he made plenty of bad decisions. 

 

[HoosierAloha 30,024]

I agree with u there!
Parker Stewart is an infinitely better shooter and maker than Phinisee.
If the question is “why doesn’t Stewart shoot more and Phinisee shoot less?” There is a real reason.
Im sure the staff would love to get Stewart more  looks. Stewart gets game planned  by the opposition—they don’t ever double off of him and his shot opportunities are limited as a result.

And we need to run counters off that. We’ve needed shooters for years. We have them and aren’t using them to the best of their abilities.


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[IU Scott 2,375]

32 minutes ago, MikeRoberts said:

I do the literal eye role when I read your posts.

the point that was made was that our worst shooter is taking as many shots as our best shooter and that is a problem. 

Are you trying to argue against that? Would love to see this argument 

Again I will leave the coaching to the coaches because they know the team better.  Stewart needs to work harder to get open and be ready to shoot when he gets the ball.  He needs to do better at taking the ball to the basket.

[Stuhoo 79,274]

Don’t get me wrong guys—second guessing coaching decisions is one of the fuels of this or any board.

Great discussion 

[HoosierAloha 30,024]

Again I will leave the coaching to the coaches because they know the team better.  Stewart needs to work harder to get open and be ready to shoot when he gets the ball.  He needs to do better at taking the ball to the basket.

I don’t think I want P Stew putting the ball on the floor to get to the basket. I want him in catch and shoot opportunities or back cutting (novel idea but that’s not really our offense) when overplayed. (I could be completely wrong on this but when P Stew and Kopp put the ball on the floor it seems like there’s a high probability the other team ends up with it)

I would agree he needs to work harder to get open but there is a lot that could be schemed up to get him better looks.


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[Stuhoo 79,274]

15 minutes ago, HoosierAloha said:

I don’t think I want P Stew putting the ball on the floor to get to the basket. I want him in catch and shoot opportunities or back cutting (novel idea but that’s not really our offense) when overplayed. (I could be completely wrong on this but when P Stew and Kopp put the ball on the floor it seems like there’s a high probability the other team ends up with it)

I would agree he needs to work harder to get open but there is a lot that could be schemed up to get him better looks.


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In a way I am the pessimist here. I don’t think that Parker has it in him to be moving and curling around screens for shots. I think that he is a superior catch and shoot guy, and doesn’t turn it over much. If he sticks to his role that’s a big role on this IU team. 

[Hoosierfan2017 20,693]

1 hour ago, IUFAN1976 said:

Agree with both!  I wish the Phinesee hate and Lander love will just stop!  The coaches aren’t wrong

No one has even mentioned Lander in this conversation. I don’t agree with it, but it’s clear that Lander isn’t going to play this season and that Phinisee will. So, since Phinisee will be playing, the staff needs to put in a game plan that takes his strengths and weaknesses into account. Offense is his weakness, and him taking 6 shots a game isn’t good for the team. He’s getting open shots because teams sag off him but he’s still missing.

We’re 6-32 from 3 in our past two games. Through four conference games we’re last in the conference in 3pt makes per game, last in attempts, and 11th in percentage. We managed to beat Ohio State while shooting 2-15 from 3, but that won’t be the norm. We have guys who can shoot the 3 but we need to focus more on getting them good looks. The offense has looked too much like Archie ball, which is not what I expected with Woody coming from the NBA. 

[HoosierAloha 30,024]

In a way I am the pessimist here. I don’t think that Parker has it in him to be moving and curling around screens for shots. I think that he is a superior catch and shoot guy, and doesn’t turn it over much. If he sticks to his role that’s a big role on this IU team. 

Not sure what pessimism has to do with it or why it would be necessary to point it out?

I don’t think he needs to be in constant motion. I’d love to see a screen for P Stew going strong side with Race the sprinting down the lane. Watch how they defend it and adjust.

We could use defined roles. Watching T Williams take a dribble and then go into a floater was nice. He’s actually developed at purdoodoo. He’s spent time in the off-season working on skills before implementing them during the season. Let’s start getting that out of our players instead of allowing “freedom” on offense.




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