Negativity Thread

[mdn82 25,464]

My favorite memories of IU basketball was watching Steve Alford break ankles.

Can you imagine if Alford busted out a crossover into a pull-up? I think Knight would have thrown a basketball at him during the game. I don’t recall many players from my childhood “creating their own shot”. Bracey Wright was the first IU player I remember attempting it. It was never pretty.


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[Loaded Chicken Sandwich 8,237]

Can you imagine if Alford busted out a crossover into a pull-up? I think Knight would have thrown a basketball at him during the game. I don’t recall many players from my childhood “creating their own shot”. Bracey Wright was the first IU player I remember attempting it. It was never pretty.


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Wright was pretty good. A bit full of himself but those were some teams with a bad coach.


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[RaceToTheTop 23,823]

7 hours ago, Stuhoo said:

 

Completely disagree with the premise that Rob Phinisee and Josh Newkirk are in any way similar players. 

 

They aren’t when you consider defense.  But I’ll have to agree with Chicken Sandwich on this one.  Two years in I would consider him a subpar Big Ten starting point guard.  He hasn’t shot well, doesn’t score much, and two years in he’s a 3 assist per game guy.  His turnovers are up this year as well.

[Old Friend 8,389]

I marvel at the people here who seem to think basketball is a one on one game.  Creating shots, perimeter defender, etc.  This is not an isolation league, and the best NCAA basketball teams are not isolation teams.   Why these skills are discussed as much as they are, and more than that VALUED as much as they are is a mystery to me

Team defense and team offense win.  Guys who can make shots....priority 1.  And those guys are coming.   Guys who can penetrate and make plays for other people?   Yep.  All day.   Remember how Sampson used Eric Gordon?   Tried to get the guy to penetrate and finish from 20 feet.  He struggled to do that.  Eric Gordon may have been the best athlete in the Big Ten when he played.  And HE couldn't finish from 20 feet...team defenses.    So why do we think kids need to do that now?

Give me kids who understand the help line and the responsibility that comes with it.  Who will step up to help and sprint to recover.  Who sprint in transition.  Who stop the ball.  Who give the team a GREAT rim run or get their feet set to shoot.  Who get in gaps and get their hands on balls (Crean was right about the importance of deflections, even if he counted them and counted ON them way too much.  Taking away the easy pass is critical).   Who understand the value of making the right basketball play.  Who are great at shot selection. Who take care of the ball.  Who play with intensity and effort on every possession.  Who know how to set and use screens.  Who contest shots with their hand up and keep a hand in the face of a guy with the ball.   Who talk and communicate.  That sound like Smith to anybody?  Green?   Was it Durham last night?

"Can't create his own shot."  Whatever,.

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich 8,237]

I marvel at the people here who seem to think basketball is a one on one game.  Creating shots, perimeter defender, etc.  This is not an isolation league, and the best NCAA basketball teams are not isolation teams.   Why these skills are discussed as much as they are, and more than that VALUED as much as they are is a mystery to me
Team defense and team offense win.  Guys who can make shots....priority 1.  And those guys are coming.   Guys who can penetrate and make plays for other people?   Yep.  All day.   Remember how Sampson used Eric Gordon?   Tried to get the guy to penetrate and finish from 20 feet.  He struggled to do that.  Eric Gordon may have been the best athlete in the Big Ten when he played.  And HE couldn't finish from 20 feet...team defenses.    So why do we think kids need to do that now?
Give me kids who understand the help line and the responsibility that comes with it.  Who will step up to help and sprint to recover.  Who sprint in transition.  Who stop the ball.  Who give the team a GREAT rim run or get their feet set to shoot.  Who get in gaps and get their hands on balls (Crean was right about the importance of deflections, even if he counted them and counted ON them way too much.  Taking away the easy pass is critical).   Who understand the value of making the right basketball play.  Who are great at shot selection. Who take care of the ball.  Who play with intensity and effort on every possession.  Who know how to set and use screens.  Who contest shots with their hand up and keep a hand in the face of a guy with the ball.   Who talk and communicate.  That sound like Smith to anybody?  Green?   Was it Durham last night?
"Can't create his own shot."  Whatever,.

You have to have guys who can go and get their own if you want an elite team. Just how it is.


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[Loaded Chicken Sandwich 8,237]

I marvel at the people here who seem to think basketball is a one on one game.  Creating shots, perimeter defender, etc.  This is not an isolation league, and the best NCAA basketball teams are not isolation teams.   Why these skills are discussed as much as they are, and more than that VALUED as much as they are is a mystery to me
Team defense and team offense win.  Guys who can make shots....priority 1.  And those guys are coming.   Guys who can penetrate and make plays for other people?   Yep.  All day.   Remember how Sampson used Eric Gordon?   Tried to get the guy to penetrate and finish from 20 feet.  He struggled to do that.  Eric Gordon may have been the best athlete in the Big Ten when he played.  And HE couldn't finish from 20 feet...team defenses.    So why do we think kids need to do that now?
Give me kids who understand the help line and the responsibility that comes with it.  Who will step up to help and sprint to recover.  Who sprint in transition.  Who stop the ball.  Who give the team a GREAT rim run or get their feet set to shoot.  Who get in gaps and get their hands on balls (Crean was right about the importance of deflections, even if he counted them and counted ON them way too much.  Taking away the easy pass is critical).   Who understand the value of making the right basketball play.  Who are great at shot selection. Who take care of the ball.  Who play with intensity and effort on every possession.  Who know how to set and use screens.  Who contest shots with their hand up and keep a hand in the face of a guy with the ball.   Who talk and communicate.  That sound like Smith to anybody?  Green?   Was it Durham last night?
"Can't create his own shot."  Whatever,.

Do you want to compete for titles or for 4th place in the Big Ten every year? Wisconsin did that forever and what finally put them over the top? Two dudes who could go score at any time needed in Kaminsky and Dekker. Wisconsin is built on team play too right? How about Virginia last season? Built on team play right? But they also had Guy, Jerome and hunter who go go score on anyone in the country when Virginia needed it. Remember when Indiana has been good in the last decade? Had Zeller, Oladipo and Yogi? Name an elite team and basically every single one of them had a guy who could go get their own. Has nothing to do with not playing team ball or selfish. Has everything to do with having a guy who can take the team up another level because they are always a threat to score. Devonte Green isn’t close to that. He’s a role player. We are talking about the Currys, Jimmers and Hields here. Great college players that are needed to compete at the highest level. Lander has that potential. Heck look at other teams in the Big Ten. Maryland has Cowan/Smith, Michigan State has Winston, Iowa has Garza, Illinois has Ayo, Penn St has Stevens, Ohio State has Wesson. You have to have those guys in March. I know you don’t want anyone like that on the team, but you have to have them if you want to get back to competing for national titles.


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[WayneFleekHoosier 46,836]

Do you want to compete for titles or for 4th place in the Big Ten every year? Wisconsin did that forever and what finally put them over the top? Two dudes who could go score at any time needed in Kaminsky and Dekker. Wisconsin is built on team play too right? How about Virginia last season? Built on team play right? But they also had Guy, Jerome and hunter who go go score on anyone in the country when Virginia needed it. Remember when Indiana has been good in the last decade? Had Zeller, Oladipo and Yogi? Name an elite team and basically every single one of them had a guy who could go get their own. Has nothing to do with not playing team ball or selfish. Has everything to do with having a guy who can take the team up another level because they are always a threat to score. Devonte Green isn’t close to that. He’s a role player. We are talking about the Currys, Jimmers and Hields here. Great college players that are needed to compete at the highest level. Lander has that potential. Heck look at other teams in the Big Ten. Maryland has Cowan/Smith, Michigan State has Winston, Iowa has Garza, Illinois has Ayo, Penn St has Stevens, Ohio State has Wesson. You have to have those guys in March. I know you don’t want anyone like that on the team, but you have to have them if you want to get back to competing for national titles.


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Yep. TJD could be a post version. Now we need the guard version in tandem. Get us a wing, and boom goes the dynamite.


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[Loaded Chicken Sandwich 8,237]

Yep. TJD could be a post version. Now we need the guard version in tandem. Get us a wing, and boom goes the dynamite.


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I really don’t understand the thought that we don’t need guys who can go get their own. Makes no sense. TJD has shown flashes and that’s when we’ve been best.


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[DChoosier 7,056]

3 hours ago, Old Friend said:

Who understand the value of making the right basketball play.  Who are great at shot selection. Who take care of the ball.  Who play with intensity and effort on every possession.  Who know how to set and use screens.  Who contest shots with their hand up and keep a hand in the face of a guy with the ball.   Who talk and communicate.  That sound like Smith to anybody?  Green?   Was it Durham last night?

"Can't create his own shot."  Whatever,.

You mention the dreaded Crean guys (as people instinctively/predictably do) but against PU did Hunter/Franklin/Rob/Brunk/TJD meet the criteria you mention above?  

[rcbowla 6,762]

Do you want to compete for titles or for 4th place in the Big Ten every year? Wisconsin did that forever and what finally put them over the top? Two dudes who could go score at any time needed in Kaminsky and Dekker. Wisconsin is built on team play too right? How about Virginia last season? Built on team play right? But they also had Guy, Jerome and hunter who go go score on anyone in the country when Virginia needed it. Remember when Indiana has been good in the last decade? Had Zeller, Oladipo and Yogi? Name an elite team and basically every single one of them had a guy who could go get their own. Has nothing to do with not playing team ball or selfish. Has everything to do with having a guy who can take the team up another level because they are always a threat to score. Devonte Green isn’t close to that. He’s a role player. We are talking about the Currys, Jimmers and Hields here. Great college players that are needed to compete at the highest level. Lander has that potential. Heck look at other teams in the Big Ten. Maryland has Cowan/Smith, Michigan State has Winston, Iowa has Garza, Illinois has Ayo, Penn St has Stevens, Ohio State has Wesson. You have to have those guys in March. I know you don’t want anyone like that on the team, but you have to have them if you want to get back to competing for national titles.


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In today's game you are correct. Didn't necessarily use to be that way but the game has changed. You do need that alpha that relishes the moment to get the ball and beat his man no matter what when it is most needed.

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[Alford Bailey 12,259]

10 hours ago, Loaded Chicken Sandwich said:

Do you want to compete for titles or for 4th place in the Big Ten every year? Wisconsin did that forever and what finally put them over the top? Two dudes who could go score at any time needed in Kaminsky and Dekker. Wisconsin is built on team play too right? How about Virginia last season? Built on team play right? But they also had Guy, Jerome and hunter who go go score on anyone in the country when Virginia needed it. Remember when Indiana has been good in the last decade? Had Zeller, Oladipo and Yogi? Name an elite team and basically every single one of them had a guy who could go get their own. Has nothing to do with not playing team ball or selfish. Has everything to do with having a guy who can take the team up another level because they are always a threat to score. Devonte Green isn’t close to that. He’s a role player. We are talking about the Currys, Jimmers and Hields here. Great college players that are needed to compete at the highest level. Lander has that potential. Heck look at other teams in the Big Ten. Maryland has Cowan/Smith, Michigan State has Winston, Iowa has Garza, Illinois has Ayo, Penn St has Stevens, Ohio State has Wesson. You have to have those guys in March. I know you don’t want anyone like that on the team, but you have to have them if you want to get back to competing for national titles.


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Spot on. We thought Rob was gonna be that guy but honestly he just doesnt have it. We rightfully recruited over him with Lander who I believe skill wise is on another level.

[GloryDays 5,897]

21 hours ago, Chris007 said:

I think most people will see Phinisee have surgery after the season, and realize that's why he has played the way he has this season. He's going to be so much better in the next two seasons. 

I've thought all year long he's been playing with a hernia.Ive seen him grimace in pain several times this season.If that's the case I admire the kid even more.

 That being said Lander's commitment was a godsend because Al or Franklin for that matter running point is a nightmare when Rob isn't available. Al is a pretty good spot up shooter and is better suited at the two. Franklin just needs time.

[GloryDays 5,897]

18 hours ago, Stuhoo said:

 

Oh good grief: IMO you're trashing any credibility you might have had by citing the entirety of this list. Verdell Jones and Troy Williams could create their own shots? Yes, much in the same way that Devonte Green can - with lower than hoped for efficiency.

Jordan Hulls, Robert Johnson, Damon Bailey could create their own shots? Wonderful players at IU, but no, this was certainly not their strength.

Steve Alford had an entire offense designed around others setting screens for him. Alford was a great scorer at IU, but to say that he was an NBA-style 'clear out for him' guy is either disingenuous or evidence that you were not yet watching during the Alford era. 

In fact, in the entire Bob Knight era, there was pretty much zero "creating your own shot." There was a whole lot of screening off-ball and cutting off of those teammate screens for passes.

 

Verdell Jones,head down eyes to the floor.

The Human Bulldozer!

[RaceToTheTop 23,823]

I think we might actually need TWO wins to make the tournament, not one.

The reason:  if we win one more game, it is very likely that we are playing in the play in round.  Big Ten tiebreakers start with head to head first and if multiple teams are involved, record against all teams that are tied comes into play.

Their are five teams that realistically could finish with 9 wins (I'm not counting Michigan, who has 9 wins already and plays Nebraska at home among their last three games).  IF Purdue and Indiana end with 9 wins, that kills IU in tiebreakers with not just Purdue but with any other team with 9 wins.  Purdue plays at Iowa and then hosts Rutgers.  The best case for IU would be for Purdue to lose both;  the worst case isn't really Purdue winning both, it would be them splitting the pair because it would push IU below some teams they might otherwise beat in a tiebreaker.

So if IU finishes 9-11 in conference, they very likely have to play Wednesday in the BTT against either Northwestern or Nebraska.  While 19-12/9-11 puts them on the right side of a bubble, a BTT ending loss to Northwestern or Nebraska brings in a bad loss and hurts the resume.  So I think we need two wins....either during the regular season, or if we get only one, we probably need to either beat Nebraska or Northwestern in the BTT.

[JHoosier914 1,187]

I think we might actually need TWO wins to make the tournament, not one.
The reason:  if we win one more game, it is very likely that we are playing in the play in round.  Big Ten tiebreakers start with head to head first and if multiple teams are involved, record against all teams that are tied comes into play.
Their are five teams that realistically could finish with 9 wins (I'm not counting Michigan, who has 9 wins already and plays Nebraska at home among their last three games).  IF Purdue and Indiana end with 9 wins, that kills IU in tiebreakers with not just Purdue but with any other team with 9 wins.  Purdue plays at Iowa and then hosts Rutgers.  The best case for IU would be for Purdue to lose both;  the worst case isn't really Purdue winning both, it would be them splitting the pair because it would push IU below some teams they might otherwise beat in a tiebreaker.
So if IU finishes 9-11 in conference, they very likely have to play Wednesday in the BTT against either Northwestern or Nebraska.  While 19-12/9-11 puts them on the right side of a bubble, a BTT ending loss to Northwestern or Nebraska brings in a bad loss and hurts the resume.  So I think we need two wins....either during the regular season, or if we get only one, we probably need to either beat Nebraska or Northwestern in the BTT.

I asked one of the top bracketologist what IU had to do ‘solidify’ the tournament and the picture is his response. doesn’t mean less doesn’t get us in, his thought I’d share. Similar to your thoughts



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[Uspshoosier 44,345]

I think we might actually need TWO wins to make the tournament, not one.
The reason:  if we win one more game, it is very likely that we are playing in the play in round.  Big Ten tiebreakers start with head to head first and if multiple teams are involved, record against all teams that are tied comes into play.
Their are five teams that realistically could finish with 9 wins (I'm not counting Michigan, who has 9 wins already and plays Nebraska at home among their last three games).  IF Purdue and Indiana end with 9 wins, that kills IU in tiebreakers with not just Purdue but with any other team with 9 wins.  Purdue plays at Iowa and then hosts Rutgers.  The best case for IU would be for Purdue to lose both;  the worst case isn't really Purdue winning both, it would be them splitting the pair because it would push IU below some teams they might otherwise beat in a tiebreaker.
So if IU finishes 9-11 in conference, they very likely have to play Wednesday in the BTT against either Northwestern or Nebraska.  While 19-12/9-11 puts them on the right side of a bubble, a BTT ending loss to Northwestern or Nebraska brings in a bad loss and hurts the resume.  So I think we need two wins....either during the regular season, or if we get only one, we probably need to either beat Nebraska or Northwestern in the BTT.

Usually teams at the very end of the bubble have about 3 or 4 bad losses. Even with a bad loss IU’s overall resume would be better then the rest. Providence and Cincy are considered bubble teams or some have them projected in the field and they each have 4 quad 3-4 losses. IU would be hard to keep out of the tournament if they get to 19 wins. IU has only lost to top 41 teams as of today. One bad loss won’t keep them out in my opinion


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[MikeRoberts 6,837]

I asked one of the top bracketologist what IU had to do ‘solidify’ the tournament and the picture is his response. doesn’t mean less doesn’t get us in, his thought I’d share. Similar to your thoughts



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He’s saying IU wins 3 games we are probably ok...

Iu isn’t going to win 3 more games


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[JHoosier914 1,187]

He’s saying IU wins 3 games we are probably ok...

 

Iu isn’t going to win 3 more games

 

 

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Possibly not, but I didnt ask the question ‘what does IU need to do to get in’ I asked what they needed to do to solidify the tournament...AKA become a ‘lock.’

 

We can still get in without winning 3 more games

 

**Edited for a typo

 

 

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[Uspshoosier 44,345]

Possibly not, but I did ask the question ‘what does IU need to do to get in’ I asked what they needed to do to solidify the tournament...AKA become a ‘lock.’

We can still get in without winning 3 more games


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He answered another question yesterday and said 19 would probably do it but he would feel better if it was 20


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[HoosierTrav 7,619]

I would be shocked if we win 3 more games.