Game Thread:POTFB 11/30 @ 12 ESPN2

[IUc2016 7,121]

I’m surprised you only had 6 more wins than us when we had the worst 4-year stretch in our history. Would’ve guessed more. 

I’m surprised your top paid head coach only has a record of 17-21 after three seasons. Would’ve guessed he had more wins.

I mean, I hear you can get high school coaches for much cheaper and they will get you a better record than that :)


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[mamasa 15,299]

This is the type of post that should get this troll banned. 

You’ve posted far more trolling posts than Boiler. He’s generally a level headed poster who is happy to discuss both teams.


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[Stlboiler23 68]

1 hour ago, Fkfootball1 said:

Florida 3 Stars>The 4 star guys that Brohm keeps landing.


David Bell has to be regretting going there over Indiana. I hope he decides to transfer.


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Bell and Karlaftis has pretty good seasons for our 4* guys.  And I highly doubt Bell is regretting anything. 3rd most receiving yards in the conference and a near lock for freshman All-American honors. 

[Stlboiler23 68]

1 hour ago, IUc2016 said:

I’m surprised your top paid head coach only has a record of 17-21 after three seasons. Would’ve guessed he had more wins.

I mean, I hear you can get high school coaches for much cheaper and they will get you a better record than that :)


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After 9-39 over 4 years, I can live with 17-21. 

[Old Friend 8,389]

15 hours ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

We just have to go back a few hours to find something.

"The entire Indiana program should be embarrassed and ashamed.  A pathetically soft and helpless second half.  And I'm sorry, folks.  Peyton Ramsey is as at fault as anyone."

Ramsey accounted for 379 yards, 5 touchdowns, and 0 turnovers today. Yet you've been downplaying the performance as much as possible, particularly as it relates to his passing game. Not only did he have a really good game, but the defense and kicking game were both utterly atrocious today. Yet you said Ramsey was as at fault as the defense and kicker because why, he didn't complete every single pass? Sure, he missed some throws. He missed a wide open receiver that would've won the game. But the defense gave up almost 600 yards to a 4th string quarterback and the kicker missed field goals from 43, 40, and 26 yards. I honestly don't think you even believe what you said.

Okay....I'll try this again...one more time.   And the last time.  It doesn't matter at all because Indiana is having team success; and yes, that includes him.  He does not suck and he's not "bad."   I have now said I was wrong for that comment a few times.  I think he is an above average leader, I think he's tough, and I think his arm strength and vision as a passer are limiting.   I'm not sure why you think any of that's unfair, or need more, but you do.   You've been pretty vocal about what you think I believe and think I mean; and you've also done well putting words in my mouth; so here's some truth you also need if you're begging someone else to admit they were wrong :

First of all, you're not objective.   It's okay. No law says you have to be, but you're not.  The offense died when James went out.  That's when "embarrassing" was prominent and Ramsey was slow to read, slow to throw, and missed throws.  He did.  That happened.  That's when I made the comment and I sure as hell wasn't alone.  You think me including Ramsey in the blame when he was absolutely horrid for a few drives late in regulation is taboo?     Why??   Is it because you want me to be wrong, or you really didn't see it?   I think we both know the answer.

Here's why I have the opinion I do...take it or leave it.  But....don't cherry pick.  Absorb the whole story for a change.

1)  The point has been made here that Indiana needs to take a "next step" and beat the better teams in the Big Ten.  As you're giving Ramsey all of this credit, Indiana ONLY beat teams that finished 4th, 5th, and 6th in their respective divisions.    Team wins against teams not as good as we are.    Using the Penn State game as a reference, I remember at least 2 deep throws, one to Westbrook and one to Fryfogle, which were slow to arrive, and had they arrived on time would have been much bigger plays, and Westbrook's a touchdown.  Instead, we settle for 3 points instead of that touchdown because Westbrook was tackled instead of in the end zone, and we lost by 7.   There were several plays like that throughout the season where a ball from Penix gives a receiver a chance to do something after the catch...down the field. Ramsey can only give receivers that chance on short balls.  The whole team is better now.  Ramsey is better now than a year ago, but I still believe his playing QB limits how far Indiana can go.  See above teams we beat.  I think because the team is better and deeper, the ceiling is higher, but it gets even higher with a QB who makes better reads and throws a better ball.  

2)  Yesterday....Peyton Hendershot had 4 catches for 46 yards.  33 of those yards (according to the post game show) were after the catch.  A great play for Indiana is called, in many offenses, a deep flood.  In Indiana's case, we'd motion Philyor to the same side as our TE, send him deep (along with the other WR's) to take his cover guy, usually a safety, and Hendershot stays to block before releasing to the middle.  Ramsey throws it 15 feet, Hendershot gains 20 yards.  Happened all season.  Ramsey's yards, but that play and bubble screens to Philyor account for a whole lot of tat YAC increase.  And that's GREAT!   I love it.  Indiana was able to win 8 games this season in part because we have better palaymakers, and yes..that DOES include Ramsey.  However.... Indiana's play book for Ramsey is different than the playbook for Penix.  And the playbook for Ramsey can beat bad teams.  I don't think it'll ever beat better teams. It may keep us on the field with them, but as we saw against Penn State, we needed just a little bit more and it wasn't in the tank.  Against Michigan State, Penix showed you what I mean, and were it not for a block in the back on a 60 yard kickoff return which flipped the field AND the momentum of that game, Indiana wins that one.  Indiana was not able to overcome penalties in that game (and yes,..,I have mentioned that several times..it's a much bigger problem than Ramsey is)

***   3)  If you can take a second and be honest with yourself, how many deep balls does Ramsey throw which are absolutely accurate?  I think it's less than 30%.  Some are caught yes, but if his ball is accurate to Westbrook yesterday, it's a walk in touchdown.  Instead, Indiana gets no points because of one of those missed FG's.  You...blame the FG.  I see it a little bigger and say yeah, that was bad, but it never should have BEEN a FG because it should have been a touchdown.  It was NOT a touchdown because Ramsey's throw was a bit long and Westbrook had to lay out for it.  I ABSOLUTELY believe what I'm saying and absolutely believe that.    I watched other quarterbacks make that throw yesterday and all were touchdowns.  Indiana's was a missed FG.    As I have been telling you all season, and you've fought it....there is more to the story.   That's just one example.  You saw a 40 yard completion.  I saw a missed throw that should have been a 60 yard completion and a touchdown.  We scored zero points.  Should have scored 7.   THAT...is where you and I differ and where you think I can't see the good.   You blame the result of the drive.  I blame the reason that LED to that result.  Make sense?

That's enough.  You either see those points or you don't.  I doubt you will because I think you're much more into wanting me to be "wrong," but I also think you have to put words in my mouth to make me wrong.  I'm happy for Ramsey (and I have said THAT before,too); and he's done a pretty good job overall.  But....I do not believe he is good enough to win the games you and others were clamoring for in the "Fire Tom Allen" thread.   We STILL didn't win those games.  Why are you not up in arms about it?    Maybe because Indiana hit its ceiling instead of falling short of it?

[Brass Cannon 24,801]

6 minutes ago, Old Friend said:

Okay....I'll try this again...one more time.   And the last time.  It doesn't matter at all because Indiana is having team success; and yes, that includes him.  He does not suck and he's not "bad."   I have now said I was wrong for that comment a few times.  I think he is an above average leader, I think he's tough, and I think his arm strength and vision as a passer are limiting.   I'm not sure why you think any of that's unfair, or need more, but you do.   You've been pretty vocal about what you think I believe and think I mean; and you've also done well putting words in my mouth; so here's some truth you also need if you're begging someone else to admit they were wrong :

First of all, you're not objective.   It's okay. No law says you have to be, but you're not.  The offense died when James went out.  That's when "embarrassing" was prominent and Ramsey was slow to read, slow to throw, and missed throws.  He did.  That happened.  That's when I made the comment and I sure as hell wasn't alone.  You think me including Ramsey in the blame when he was absolutely horrid for a few drives late in regulation is taboo?     Why??   Is it because you want me to be wrong, or you really didn't see it?   I think we both know the answer.

Here's why I have the opinion I do...take it or leave it.  But....don't cherry pick.  Absorb the whole story for a change.

1)  The point has been made here that Indiana needs to take a "next step" and beat the better teams in the Big Ten.  As you're giving Ramsey all of this credit, Indiana ONLY beat teams that finished 4th, 5th, and 6th in their respective divisions.    Team wins against teams not as good as we are.    Using the Penn State game as a reference, I remember at least 2 deep throws, one to Westbrook and one to Fryfogle, which were slow to arrive, and had they arrived on time would have been much bigger plays, and Westbrook's a touchdown.  Instead, we settle for 3 points instead of that touchdown because Westbrook was tackled instead of in the end zone, and we lost by 7.   There were several plays like that throughout the season where a ball from Penix gives a receiver a chance to do something after the catch...down the field. Ramsey can only give receivers that chance on short balls.  The whole team is better now.  Ramsey is better now than a year ago, but I still believe his playing QB limits how far Indiana can go.  See above teams we beat.  I think because the team is better and deeper, the ceiling is higher, but it gets even higher with a QB who makes better reads and throws a better ball.  

2)  Yesterday....Peyton Hendershot had 4 catches for 46 yards.  33 of those yards (according to the post game show) were after the catch.  A great play for Indiana is called, in many offenses, a deep flood.  In Indiana's case, we'd motion Philyor to the same side as our TE, send him deep (along with the other WR's) to take his cover guy, usually a safety, and Hendershot stays to block before releasing to the middle.  Ramsey throws it 15 feet, Hendershot gains 20 yards.  Happened all season.  Ramsey's yards, but that play and bubble screens to Philyor account for a whole lot of tat YAC increase.  And that's GREAT!   I love it.  Indiana was able to win 8 games this season in part because we have better palaymakers, and yes..that DOES include Ramsey.  However.... Indiana's play book for Ramsey is different than the playbook for Penix.  And the playbook for Ramsey can beat bad teams.  I don't think it'll ever beat better teams. It may keep us on the field with them, but as we saw against Penn State, we needed just a little bit more and it wasn't in the tank.  Against Michigan State, Penix showed you what I mean, and were it not for a block in the back on a 60 yard kickoff return which flipped the field AND the momentum of that game, Indiana wins that one.  Indiana was not able to overcome penalties in that game (and yes,..,I have mentioned that several times..it's a much bigger problem than Ramsey is)

***   3)  If you can take a second and be honest with yourself, how many deep balls does Ramsey throw which are absolutely accurate?  I think it's less than 30%.  Some are caught yes, but if his ball is accurate to Westbrook yesterday, it's a walk in touchdown.  Instead, Indiana gets no points because of one of those missed FG's.  You...blame the FG.  I see it a little bigger and say yeah, that was bad, but it never should have BEEN a FG because it should have been a touchdown.  It was NOT a touchdown because Ramsey's throw was a bit long and Westbrook had to lay out for it.  I ABSOLUTELY believe what I'm saying and absolutely believe that.    I watched other quarterbacks make that throw yesterday and all were touchdowns.  Indiana's was a missed FG.    As I have been telling you all season, and you've fought it....there is more to the story.   That's just one example.  You saw a 40 yard completion.  I saw a missed throw that should have been a 60 yard completion and a touchdown.  We scored zero points.  Should have scored 7.   THAT...is where you and I differ and where you think I can't see the good.   You blame the result of the drive.  I blame the reason that LED to that result.  Make sense?

That's enough.  You either see those points or you don't.  I doubt you will because I think you're much more into wanting me to be "wrong," but I also think you have to put words in my mouth to make me wrong.  I'm happy for Ramsey (and I have said THAT before,too); and he's done a pretty good job overall.  But....I do not believe he is good enough to win the games you and others were clamoring for in the "Fire Tom Allen" thread.   We STILL didn't win those games.  Why are you not up in arms about it?    Maybe because Indiana hit its ceiling instead of falling short of it?

Just because you type a lot of words doesn’t make your argument valid. 
 

If Penix is so much more accurate downfield how come Ramsey has a better completion percentage?  Playing against real completion?  Penix played a single game against a bowl team. MSU.  Ramsey played 3 teams that won 9 games. 
 

Penix is without a doubt more flashy. But flashy doesn’t equal better. 
 

And let’s not forget that Penix has more interceptions than complete games. 

[Walking Boot of Doom 18,170]

I’m surprised you only had 6 more wins than us when we had the worst 4-year stretch in our history. Would’ve guessed more. 

Why? Outside of those 4 years Purdue was pretty consistently bowl eligible and won 8 or so games quite often. This is Indiana’s first 8 win season since ‘93 or something. We are historically in a fight between Kansas for the title of worst FBS program in history.

[Walking Boot of Doom 18,170]

This is the type of post that should get this troll banned. 

What? You consistently say far more obnoxious trash than this.

I don’t have any history to reference here, but STLBoiler is a fine poster despite his username being two horrid things combined.

I can list a few “IU fans” who post far more often who are much higher on the troll list.

[Stlboiler23 68]

3 minutes ago, Walking Boot of Doom said:

Why? Outside of those 4 years Purdue was pretty consistently bowl eligible and won 8 or so games quite often. This is Indiana’s first 8 win season since ‘93 or something. We are historically in a fight between Kansas for the title of worst FBS program in history.

Oh I was just referring to this decade alone. Hope won 4 games, 7, and then 6. Then Hazell went 1, 3, 2, and 3 lol. Then Brohm has gone 7, 6, and 4. So basically averaging 4 wins a year over the decade. 

[Old Friend 8,389]

7 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said:

Just because you type a lot of words doesn’t make your argument valid. 
 

If Penix is so much more accurate downfield how come Ramsey has a better completion percentage?  Playing against real completion?  Penix played a single game against a bowl team. MSU.  Ramsey played 3 teams that won 9 games. 
 

Penix is without a doubt more flashy. But flashy doesn’t equal better. 
 

And let’s not forget that Penix has more interceptions than complete games. 

Is this a serious question?   Did you read a word of what I wrote or just decide to type "few" words with zero meaning?   Did you just respond by telling me who Ramsey played against?   Did you just say Penix is "more flashy" and imply that's why Ramsey lost his job???   Penix is....."better."  THAT's why Ramsey lost his job.

Good grief, man.  If you want to invalidate my argument, you might want to make a salient point against it.  Instead you come with "flashy" and who Ramsey PLAYED against?  He was 0-3 in those games, by the way....  So what if he "played?"  You really....honestly don't understand the points I made above or why Ramsey isn't as likely to beat better teams as Penix is?   Good.  Grief.

[TheWatShot 13,997]

7 minutes ago, Walking Boot of Doom said:

What? You consistently say far more obnoxious trash than this.

I don’t have any history to reference here, but STLBoiler is a fine poster despite his username being two horrid things combined.

I can list a few “IU fans” who post far more often who are much higher on the troll list.

I don't think it's ban-worthy, but it's not the first backhanded compliment we've received from him. 

[Walking Boot of Doom 18,170]

I don't think it's ban-worthy, but it's not the first backhanded compliment we've received from him. 

I think people are being overly sensitive. If his handle didn’t have Boiler in he’d probably be accused of being a sunshine pumper by our resident trolls.

[Hoosierfan2017 21,373]

1 hour ago, Old Friend said:

Okay....I'll try this again...one more time.   And the last time.  It doesn't matter at all because Indiana is having team success; and yes, that includes him.  He does not suck and he's not "bad."   I have now said I was wrong for that comment a few times.  I think he is an above average leader, I think he's tough, and I think his arm strength and vision as a passer are limiting.   I'm not sure why you think any of that's unfair, or need more, but you do.   You've been pretty vocal about what you think I believe and think I mean; and you've also done well putting words in my mouth; so here's some truth you also need if you're begging someone else to admit they were wrong :

First of all, you're not objective.   It's okay. No law says you have to be, but you're not.  The offense died when James went out.  That's when "embarrassing" was prominent and Ramsey was slow to read, slow to throw, and missed throws.  He did.  That happened.  That's when I made the comment and I sure as hell wasn't alone.  You think me including Ramsey in the blame when he was absolutely horrid for a few drives late in regulation is taboo?     Why??   Is it because you want me to be wrong, or you really didn't see it?   I think we both know the answer.

Here's why I have the opinion I do...take it or leave it.  But....don't cherry pick.  Absorb the whole story for a change.

1)  The point has been made here that Indiana needs to take a "next step" and beat the better teams in the Big Ten.  As you're giving Ramsey all of this credit, Indiana ONLY beat teams that finished 4th, 5th, and 6th in their respective divisions.    Team wins against teams not as good as we are.    Using the Penn State game as a reference, I remember at least 2 deep throws, one to Westbrook and one to Fryfogle, which were slow to arrive, and had they arrived on time would have been much bigger plays, and Westbrook's a touchdown.  Instead, we settle for 3 points instead of that touchdown because Westbrook was tackled instead of in the end zone, and we lost by 7.   There were several plays like that throughout the season where a ball from Penix gives a receiver a chance to do something after the catch...down the field. Ramsey can only give receivers that chance on short balls.  The whole team is better now.  Ramsey is better now than a year ago, but I still believe his playing QB limits how far Indiana can go.  See above teams we beat.  I think because the team is better and deeper, the ceiling is higher, but it gets even higher with a QB who makes better reads and throws a better ball.  

2)  Yesterday....Peyton Hendershot had 4 catches for 46 yards.  33 of those yards (according to the post game show) were after the catch.  A great play for Indiana is called, in many offenses, a deep flood.  In Indiana's case, we'd motion Philyor to the same side as our TE, send him deep (along with the other WR's) to take his cover guy, usually a safety, and Hendershot stays to block before releasing to the middle.  Ramsey throws it 15 feet, Hendershot gains 20 yards.  Happened all season.  Ramsey's yards, but that play and bubble screens to Philyor account for a whole lot of tat YAC increase.  And that's GREAT!   I love it.  Indiana was able to win 8 games this season in part because we have better palaymakers, and yes..that DOES include Ramsey.  However.... Indiana's play book for Ramsey is different than the playbook for Penix.  And the playbook for Ramsey can beat bad teams.  I don't think it'll ever beat better teams. It may keep us on the field with them, but as we saw against Penn State, we needed just a little bit more and it wasn't in the tank.  Against Michigan State, Penix showed you what I mean, and were it not for a block in the back on a 60 yard kickoff return which flipped the field AND the momentum of that game, Indiana wins that one.  Indiana was not able to overcome penalties in that game (and yes,..,I have mentioned that several times..it's a much bigger problem than Ramsey is)

***   3)  If you can take a second and be honest with yourself, how many deep balls does Ramsey throw which are absolutely accurate?  I think it's less than 30%.  Some are caught yes, but if his ball is accurate to Westbrook yesterday, it's a walk in touchdown.  Instead, Indiana gets no points because of one of those missed FG's.  You...blame the FG.  I see it a little bigger and say yeah, that was bad, but it never should have BEEN a FG because it should have been a touchdown.  It was NOT a touchdown because Ramsey's throw was a bit long and Westbrook had to lay out for it.  I ABSOLUTELY believe what I'm saying and absolutely believe that.    I watched other quarterbacks make that throw yesterday and all were touchdowns.  Indiana's was a missed FG.    As I have been telling you all season, and you've fought it....there is more to the story.   That's just one example.  You saw a 40 yard completion.  I saw a missed throw that should have been a 60 yard completion and a touchdown.  We scored zero points.  Should have scored 7.   THAT...is where you and I differ and where you think I can't see the good.   You blame the result of the drive.  I blame the reason that LED to that result.  Make sense?

That's enough.  You either see those points or you don't.  I doubt you will because I think you're much more into wanting me to be "wrong," but I also think you have to put words in my mouth to make me wrong.  I'm happy for Ramsey (and I have said THAT before,too); and he's done a pretty good job overall.  But....I do not believe he is good enough to win the games you and others were clamoring for in the "Fire Tom Allen" thread.   We STILL didn't win those games.  Why are you not up in arms about it?    Maybe because Indiana hit its ceiling instead of falling short of it?

I'm not up in arms about it because IU just won 8 games for the first time in my life. And it could've been 9 wins if a few bounces go our way in either the Michigan State game or the Penn State game. 

As for Ramsey, I have already said that I agree with you that Penix is the better option. But sometimes availability is the best ability, and Ramsey takes a beating game in and game out and keeps coming back for more. I wish that we could give Penix Ramsey's durability. Ramsey's arm isn't great, but I disagree with you about it not being good enough to beat better teams. He went 31-41 for 371 yards on the road against Penn State and had 3 total touchdowns. It was the 2nd most passing yards Penn State gave up all season. You can't ask for much more than that from your QB no matter who he is. We cut it to 24-27, but then the defense gave up an 18 play, 9 minute touchdown drive. He makes mistakes, but his mistakes very rarely result in turnovers. 

In this post you say "You think me including Ramsey in the blame when he was absolutely horrid for a few drives late in regulation is taboo?" But that isn't at all what you said, and you know it isn't because I quoted your post verbatim (even though you say I put words in your mouth). You didn't just "include Ramsey in the blame," you said he was as at fault as anyone on the team. Quite frankly it is hilarious that you accuse me of "putting words in your mouth" when all I do is copy and paste what you say in your posts. If you've said that you were wrong then that's great, but you're downplaying what you said in order to act like it's crazy for me to disagree with what you said. You say I'm not objective, but you didn't see me touting Ramsey's greatness throughout the game. In fact, I barely said anything about him at all other than some comments about his toughness. It's hard not to see the agenda when you're putting as much blame on the guy who accounted for 379 yards and 5 touchdowns (with 0 turnovers) as you are the kicker who missed three short field goals and the defense that got torched all day long by Purdue's C team offense.

[JSHoosier 20,210]

Indiana's defense from yesterday:

 

Ramsey absolutely missed throws, every QB does, he also threw one on the money to the endzone that should've been a TD and wasn't caught.  Of the things that can/should be criticized about I'm amazed that anyone would have Ramsey on the list after totaling 379 yards and 5 scores, and taking a hit that Penix wouldn't have gotten up from.

[TheWatShot 13,997]

20 minutes ago, Walking Boot of Doom said:

I think people are being overly sensitive. If his handle didn’t have Boiler in he’d probably be accused of being a sunshine pumper by our resident trolls.

I guess people read what they want to read, and that works both ways. I feel that constantly bringing up Purdue's injuries is a subtle way of downplaying our success, but that's just me. 

[Walking Boot of Doom 18,170]

I guess people read what they want to read, and that works both ways. I feel that constantly bringing up Purdue's injuries is a subtle way of downplaying our success, but that's just me. 

I get it. I think it’s also just a fan being a fan and trying to downplay a failed season. Purdue has so much cash and hope tied up in Brohm. Would be very hard as a fan to see this fail.

Honestly, very much like our Archie situation. If one of the hottest young coaches can’t get it right, who will?

[RaceToTheTop 25,727]

2 hours ago, Walking Boot of Doom said:

I get it. I think it’s also just a fan being a fan and trying to downplay a failed season. Purdue has so much cash and hope tied up in Brohm. Would be very hard as a fan to see this fail.

Honestly, very much like our Archie situation. If one of the hottest young coaches can’t get it right, who will?

I've read Purdue boards and I don't see IU fans going on there to blame our season on injuries.  If anything, IU fans don't give our coaches much slack.

[Brass Cannon 24,801]

1 minute ago, brumdog45 said:

I've read Purdue boards and I don't see IU fans going on there to blame our season on injuries.  If anything, IU fans don't give our coaches much slack.

I do see a lot of IU fans trolling that board and it looks nothing like what he does here. 

[IUc2016 7,121]

Yeah boiler is pretty tame. He doesn’t bother me and I enjoy when he posts here. Back and forth civil banter is always welcomed in my opinion.

What happens on Gold and Black is disgusting.


Sent from my iPhone using BtownBanners

[Old Friend 8,389]

2 hours ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

I'm not up in arms about it because IU just won 8 games for the first time in my life. And it could've been 9 wins if a few bounces go our way in either the Michigan State game or the Penn State game. 

As for Ramsey, I have already said that I agree with you that Penix is the better option. But sometimes availability is the best ability, and Ramsey takes a beating game in and game out and keeps coming back for more. I wish that we could give Penix Ramsey's durability. Ramsey's arm isn't great, but I disagree with you about it not being good enough to beat better teams. He went 31-41 for 371 yards on the road against Penn State and had 3 total touchdowns. It was the 2nd most passing yards Penn State gave up all season. You can't ask for much more than that from your QB no matter who he is. We cut it to 24-27, but then the defense gave up an 18 play, 9 minute touchdown drive. He makes mistakes, but his mistakes very rarely result in turnovers. 

In this post you say "You think me including Ramsey in the blame when he was absolutely horrid for a few drives late in regulation is taboo?" But that isn't at all what you said, and you know it isn't because I quoted your post verbatim (even though you say I put words in your mouth). You didn't just "include Ramsey in the blame," you said he was as at fault as anyone on the team. Quite frankly it is hilarious that you accuse me of "putting words in your mouth" when all I do is copy and paste what you say in your posts. If you've said that you were wrong then that's great, but you're downplaying what you said in order to act like it's crazy for me to disagree with what you said. You say I'm not objective, but you didn't see me touting Ramsey's greatness throughout the game. In fact, I barely said anything about him at all other than some comments about his toughness. It's hard not to see the agenda when you're putting as much blame on the guy who accounted for 379 yards and 5 touchdowns (with 0 turnovers) as you are the kicker who missed three short field goals and the defense that got torched all day long by Purdue's C team offense.

I just don't think you've been willing to see what I've been trying to say and instead, change my argument so I admit I'm "wrong" somehow.  The truth is, I think we agree more than we don't, so let's just leave it at "go IU!"  I really don't need to be right and I don't feel the need to convince you.  As I have said several times now, it doesn't matter.   We're 8-4 and that's a hell of a football season for Indiana.

I've said this program has a ceiling and it was on full display this season.  Indiana just about maximized what Indiana will ever be as a football program; helped by a schedule....and it seemed every game included some mistakes that either cost the team or almost cost the team.  Those mistakes have been spread around....and while I like the results, I also see the limitations and repeated mistakes.

I am FAR more concerned with the big. stupid and frequently mental penalties and fake tough guy crap than I am anything else.  Team discipline cannot be a limiting factor, and that's been a big issue since Allen took over.  I wish I knew why...but it seems to be widespread across players regardless of where they're from or how old they are.