Game Thread: 09/21 12:00PM ET Indiana vs UConn BTN

[Walking Boot of Doom 18,170]

Look at some of the posts from people in this thread. Take jbell, for example:
"I agree. I’m just baffled this line is 27.5...general public must not know Penix isn’t playing. No chance we cover."
Or this one from Joe:
"If Penix doesn’t play, it’ll be a struggle to win."
That's treating Penix as the savior and acting like there is an enormous gap between the two. Penix has played a game and a half against really bad competition this year and you've got folks acting like he's a superstar in the making. Ramsey has also played a game and a half against really bad competition. He's gone 36-41 for 473 yards and 5 touchdowns in those 6 quarters. Old Friend loves to bring up YPA.. Well, that's good for a 11.5 YPA. He sucked against Ohio state last week, but Penix sucked the one time he faced a legitimate team too. No one has come out and said word for word "he's our savior", but they make it obvious that they believe it in their comments. 

Don’t ever quote Joe to me as an indicator of a larger population.

These comments are 1) taken out of context and 2) absolutely not indicative of anyone treating Penix like a savior.

How many interceptions did Ramsey throw in those 6 quarters by the way? For a safe pick, it’s safe to say he’ll throw a pick a game.

This debate is tired though. If you wouldn’t rather see Penix under center after all that we’ve seen from Ramsey, then I have nothing else to say about this. Ramsey is exactly what we know, and Penix gives us some additional offensive fire power that may win an additional game or two making us bowl eligible. It’s as simple and lightly stated as that.

I do hope Ramsey invites you and BC to his birthday party this year though.


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[Walking Boot of Doom 18,170]

Not a red herring. It’s a fallacy to say a QB can’t be good without tons of arm strength.  Some of Peyton Manning’s best years came after the injury that sapped a great deal of his arm strength. 

I think you just defended your first logical fallacy with a second logical fallacy.


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[Brass Cannon 24,307]

1 minute ago, Walking Boot of Doom said:

I think you just defended your first logical fallacy with a second logical fallacy.


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And I think you can’t refute it so lazily call it a logical fallacy 

[Brass Cannon 24,307]

4 minutes ago, Walking Boot of Doom said:

Don’t ever quote Joe to me as an indicator of a larger population.

These comments are 1) taken out of context and 2) absolutely not indicative of anyone treating Penix like a savior.

How many interceptions did Ramsey throw in those 6 quarters by the way? For a safe pick, it’s safe to say he’ll throw a pick a game.

This debate is tired though. If you wouldn’t rather see Penix under center after all that we’ve seen from Ramsey, then I have nothing else to say about this. Ramsey is exactly what we know, and Penix gives us some additional offensive fire power that may win an additional game or two making us bowl eligible. It’s as simple and lightly stated as that.

I do hope Ramsey invites you and BC to his birthday party this year though.


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Petty insults the clear sign of a reasonable and fair minded person.

You critique Ramsey for his one pick a game yet forget Penix threw 2 in the only complete game he’s played. It’s almost like  you overlooked that because it didn’t fit your narrative 

[Walking Boot of Doom 18,170]

Petty insults the clear sign of a reasonable and fair minded person.
You critique Ramsey for his one pick a game yet forget Penix threw 2 in the only complete game he’s played. It’s almost like  you overlooked that because it didn’t fit your narrative 

I’d like a much larger sample size on him. I will credit Penix by saying that they were made in the first half of his first start in his first college game and he then recovered and led an excellent second half.

Ramsey on the other hand is making the same errant throws as a junior in his 15th-ish start?

My narrative is that Penix is equal to and marginally better as freshman than a junior Ramsey. He is more dynamic and diversifies our options offensively. He gives us a better chance to win.


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[Walking Boot of Doom 18,170]

And I think you can’t refute it so lazily call it a logical fallacy 

There’s nothing to refute. No one said arm strength is the key indicator of a successful QB. You created an argument that doesn’t exist, so no one can refute your statement. That’s partially why it’s a logical fallacy and an entire academic area of study exists teaching people how to avoid creating logical fallacies.


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[Walking Boot of Doom 18,170]

Petty insults the clear sign of a reasonable and fair minded person.
You critique Ramsey for his one pick a game yet forget Penix threw 2 in the only complete game he’s played. It’s almost like  you overlooked that because it didn’t fit your narrative 

Also petty insults? Get over it it’s a bit of my style. Joe DeLow is an absolutely extreme character on this board and should never been used as a representative example of general board feelings. That’d be like quoting iugradman and then saying, “see, everyone thinks Fred Glass is the devil.”


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[Brass Cannon 24,307]

Just now, Walking Boot of Doom said:

I’d like a much larger sample size on him. I will credit Penix by saying that they were made in the first half of his first start in his first college game and he then recovered and led an excellent second half.

Ramsey on the other hand is making the same errant throws as a junior in his 15th-ish start?

My narrative is that Penix is equal to and marginally better as freshman than a junior Ramsey. He is more dynamic and diversifies our options offensively. He gives us a better chance to win.


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Being more dynamic does not make him better. Those aren’t necessarily the same thing. 

He completed 60% of his passes against Ball state. Despite having a “strong” second half his numbers weren’t that great. He just threw it a lot 

[Brass Cannon 24,307]

3 minutes ago, Walking Boot of Doom said:

There’s nothing to refute. No one said arm strength is the key indicator of a successful QB. You created an argument that doesn’t exist, so no one can refute your statement. That’s partially why it’s a logical fallacy and an entire academic area of study exists teaching people how to avoid creating logical fallacies.


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I would refer you to the post I quoted. Something you probably should have done already. 

[Walking Boot of Doom 18,170]

I would refer you to the post I quoted. Something you probably should have done already. 

“You should have more zip on your passes. You shouldn’t have to heave a 20 yard pass.”

 

What does this mean to you? It seems you read this as, “arm strength is the most important characteristic of a QB,” and then you compared Ramsey to Super Bowl winning NFL QB Peyton Manning by using him as an example of a QB who didn’t need major arm strength to win (even though his arm strength even weakened was greater than Ramsey).

 

 

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[Walking Boot of Doom 18,170]

Being more dynamic does not make him better. Those aren’t necessarily the same thing. 
He completed 60% of his passes against Ball state. Despite having a “strong” second half his numbers weren’t that great. He just threw it a lot 

We don’t have the stats to show that Penix nor Ramsey is better at this point. What we have is the ability to compare all that we’ve seen from Ramsey to what we’ve seen from Penix. It’s subjective, but you and Hoosierfan appear to be the only people on the board who watched and believe Ramsey is better.

Oh, our coaching staff also believes Penix is better and gives us a better chance of winning.


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[Alford Bailey 12,368]

We know Penix won the starting job in practice but the guy has not been able to stay healthy enough to show us much of anything on the field yet. That should cause some concern if he is "the guy".

[Magnanimous 4,529]

51 minutes ago, Alford Bailey said:

We know Penix won the starting job in practice but the guy has not been able to stay healthy enough to show us much of anything on the field yet. That should cause some concern if he is "the guy".

The reason I’m not concerned is that they’re completely unrelated injuries. He’s bounced back fully from his knee issue. 

[Hoosierfan2017 21,073]

Peyton Ramsey is 41st of 117 quarterbacks in YPA this year, 28th in passing efficiency rating, and 11th in completion percentage. Not bad. 

[lucel15 3,052]

Arm strength in this argument isn’t how far you can throw the ball....it’s how you can get it in the window....it’s if you can get the ball to the WR in time for him to make moves and get yards after the catch. Ramsey doesn’t allow WRs to get the ball and make moves he’s a good QB, but he doesn’t allow you to do a lot against athletic defenses. It’s plain and simple. Many football coverage people who have been to practices have stated that. Many commentators have commented on that matter. You have to allow your WRs to make plays. Yes Ramsey can complete passes, but eventually you need to hit them and stride and let them do what they can do. For example the pass to DHale....hale had to completely stop....if he leads him and throws it on a deep rope.....or even a rope to him in stride....it’s a TD. I believe we ended that drive going the other way and settled for a FG. People’s arguments aren’t can he throw it 45-65 yards on a dime....it’s can he get it in right windows and the answer is no. Most the time it’s behind, or WRs have to stop. This is why the coaches believe Penix can give them opportunities to win bigger games.....he allows WRs to make plays and turn up field. And bringing up the bsu and EIU games about how Penix was not great....he has at least 2-3 more tds. Does that make you happier? Because those aren’t on him....his WRs have dropped wide open balls....that’s not on him. His one INT was a bad read early in his first start. His second the WR ran a shallow route and slipped coaches have  said that’s not on him. Ramsey has INTs as well....one didn’t have enough zip, went for pick six against osu. One was a floater against UConn. EIU he almost threw another pick 6. Luckily butter fingers lb couldn’t catch....the argument is getting it to WRs in time and not allowing the Defense to make plays and adjust to his lobs. 

[lucel15 3,052]

On another note Tiwan Mullen might be our best cover DB. He looked great yesterday. Cam jones is hungry and looked great as well. Lino ball has disappointed.  

[hoopsta007 398]

Sorry if I missed it but any update on Coy Cronk yet?

[lucel15 3,052]

9 minutes ago, hoopsta007 said:

Sorry if I missed it but any update on Coy Cronk yet?

He’s done for the season. Definitely a dislocated ankle. What is like to see is for him to come back. He moves to right guard next season. You have a line from left to right 

Bedford.  Beery. Crider. Cronk. Jones. 

[Alford Bailey 12,368]

2 hours ago, Magnanimous said:

The reason I’m not concerned is that they’re completely unrelated injuries. He’s bounced back fully from his knee issue. 

Unrelated yes but Penix is lauded for mobility and a strong arm. He  blew out a knee in his first season and now has shoulder issues. This QB topic should probably focus more his durability.

[Walking Boot of Doom 18,170]

Arm strength in this argument isn’t how far you can throw the ball....it’s how you can get it in the window....it’s if you can get the ball to the WR in time for him to make moves and get yards after the catch. Ramsey doesn’t allow WRs to get the ball and make moves he’s a good QB, but he doesn’t allow you to do a lot against athletic defenses. It’s plain and simple. Many football coverage people who have been to practices have stated that. Many commentators have commented on that matter. You have to allow your WRs to make plays. Yes Ramsey can complete passes, but eventually you need to hit them and stride and let them do what they can do. For example the pass to DHale....hale had to completely stop....if he leads him and throws it on a deep rope.....or even a rope to him in stride....it’s a TD. I believe we ended that drive going the other way and settled for a FG. People’s arguments aren’t can he throw it 45-65 yards on a dime....it’s can he get it in right windows and the answer is no. Most the time it’s behind, or WRs have to stop. This is why the coaches believe Penix can give them opportunities to win bigger games.....he allows WRs to make plays and turn up field. And bringing up the bsu and EIU games about how Penix was not great....he has at least 2-3 more tds. Does that make you happier? Because those aren’t on him....his WRs have dropped wide open balls....that’s not on him. His one INT was a bad read early in his first start. His second the WR ran a shallow route and slipped coaches have  said that’s not on him. Ramsey has INTs as well....one didn’t have enough zip, went for pick six against osu. One was a floater against UConn. EIU he almost threw another pick 6. Luckily butter fingers lb couldn’t catch....the argument is getting it to WRs in time and not allowing the Defense to make plays and adjust to his lobs. 

Thank you. Feels like I’m taking crazy pills out here.


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