So some concerns I’m having...

[bleedhoosier]

I like to operate under the assumption that I don't possess 1/10th the knowledge that Archie and the coaches have.. 

I also have this fun little fantasy where a message board poster wins the chance to coach this current team for 1 game. The players just execute the plan of the couch potato fan... and if they die, they die.. 

I'm sure it would go great and the direction of the program would no longer be in question

[Rico]

Let's step back into time.  Coverdale came to IU, how much PT did he get under Knight?  Enter Davis......and Cov is on the floor.  

[woodenshoemanHoosierfan]

I agree with Jarod

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[IUc2016]

12 minutes ago, Rico said:

Let's step back into time.  Coverdale came to IU, how much PT did he get under Knight?  Enter Davis......and Cov is on the floor.  

Are you trying to say that we have a Tom Coverdale on our bench? Last I checked we do not have an Indiana Mr. Basketball riding our bench..

[HoosierAloha]

I believe Vijay would at least look at the basketball goal. He may not score. But he’d actually look at it and know what one looks like.


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And I believe you’d be right back on here complaining when you saw him look at the goal and then give up baskets on the other end. Read Odle’s comments, there’s a lot of you in them.


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[Rico]

39 minutes ago, IUc2016 said:

Are you trying to say that we have a Tom Coverdale on our bench? Last I checked we do not have an Indiana Mr. Basketball riding our bench..

No, what I am saying is Cov didn't get a shot with Knight....no more, no less.

[mdn82]

De'Ron, Clifton, Jake, Johnny, Quentin, & Race.... (I know you weren't seriously asking).
These are the guys that haven't... just because Blackmon has hit 1 doesn't mean he should get any minutes beyond a blowout...
Everybody wants different results and I get that but I don't think it is just Archie playing the guys who practice the hardest... If you put these other options in the game do you really think it is going to be some magical cure? Or are you just interested in change because the current guys aren't getting it done? What if we did play those guys and still lose... then what? Cut everybody and get 13 new scholarship players? Go visit the Hyper to look for some last minute walk-ons that hit some 3s in there?
Are we seriously asking for the bench guys to come to our rescue... the ones everybody wants to play have scored 71 points in 238 minutes.... basically the same as Fitzner and everybody wants him to never play again.... They have 49 rebounds... to 48 for Fitzner.... 10 assists to 9 for Fitzner.... Fitzner turns the ball over too much, he has bad hands... he has 9... the others 17 (again in the same basic amount of minutes)...

Completely agree


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[mdn82]

No, what I am saying is Cov didn't get a shot with Knight....no more, no less.

So as a freshman he wasn’t ready and Michael Lewis was a Senior? Guessing this has a little to do with it.

 

 

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[Rico]

4 minutes ago, mdn82 said:

So as a freshman he wasn’t ready and Michael Lewis was a Senior? Guessing this has a little to do with it.

 

 

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Listen, the point is you don't know 'til you try.  We are losing.  And losing bad.  What are your recommendations?

[Stuhoo]

27 minutes ago, Rico said:

Listen, the point is you don't know 'til you try.  We are losing.  And losing bad.  What are your recommendations?

 

That's an easy one:

• IU's best players, the ones that have proven themselves in the eyes of the coaching staff, need to work really hard so that their confidence is based on repetitive success during practice, and with individual and film work.
• In doing so, they can re-establish themselves as the team that was 12-2 and had multiple wins over top 25 teams.
• Nothing tricky, nothing that requires "out-thinking the room." Just hard work and results.

 

Now compare that with some of the suggestions over the past few page threads:

• Play a walk-on who was not especially successful as an NAIA player.
• Lots more time to untested freshmen.
• Revamp the team's defensive scheme 2/3 of the way through the season.
• "Do something. Anything."

 

[Rico]

3 minutes ago, Stuhoo said:

 

That's an easy one:

• IU's best players, the ones that have proven themselves in the eyes of the coaching staff, need to work really hard so that their confidence is based on repetitive success during practice, and with individual and film work.
• In doing so, they can re-establish themselves as the team that was 12-2 and had multiple wins over top 25 teams.
• Nothing tricky, nothing that requires "out-thinking the room." Just hard work and results.

 

And what if all that fails?

[Stuhoo]

1 minute ago, Rico said:

And what if all that fails?

 

Then we're S.O.L.

 

[HoosierAloha]

11 minutes ago, Stuhoo said:

 

That's an easy one:

• IU's best players, the ones that have proven themselves in the eyes of the coaching staff, need to work really hard so that their confidence is based on repetitive success during practice, and with individual and film work.
• In doing so, they can re-establish themselves as the team that was 12-2 and had multiple wins over top 25 teams.
• Nothing tricky, nothing that requires "out-thinking the room." Just hard work and results.

 

Now compare that with some of the suggestions over the past few page threads:

• Play a walk-on who was not especially successful as an NAIA player.
• Lots more time to untested freshmen.
• Revamp the team's defensive scheme 2/3 of the way through the season.
• "Do something. Anything."

 

I remember a certain coach who was infamous for out-thinking the room...

It sucks where we're at but a young player that hasn't played a lot isn't going to come in and somehow save the day.  I've never jumped off the ledge to see if I survived but "hey, it could possibly work."

[Walking Boot of Doom]

16 minutes ago, Rico said:

Listen, the point is you don't know 'til you try.  We are losing.  And losing bad.  What are your recommendations?

My recommendation is to not look at this as a short term problem and solution. Whether we make the tournament this year or not doesn't actually demonstrate whether we've solved the long term issue that Indiana is a broken program with no culture.

A majority of coaches aren't going to fix anything in one year. Many examples have been given to show that two years isn't long term enough either. Maybe year three? No one can say for certain how long a rebuild or restart is supposed to take.

Understand that the administration is taking a long term approach to this fix, hence the seven year contract, and will be patient because you don't fix this mess in the short term. I believe when Archie signed he even stated that it takes approximately three years to fully implement his defense. For context, here's a nice article from when he was hired that details how he made his program at Dayton - https://www.indystar.com/story/sports/college/indiana/2018/02/27/iu-basketballs-archie-miller-unbending-coach-unshakeable-confidence/379606002/

Here's a quote from Archie in the subsequently linked article:

“Culture is five or six years down the road – whatever they say about Indiana at that point, we’ve earned. But we don’t have one yet.”

https://sports.yahoo.com/news/clean-office-clean-slate-archie-millers-reboot-indiana-starting-scratch-220143659.html

Archie and the administration know that sustained success is going to take time to create. Archie's steps to make this happen are to:

1. Establish a defensive identity that grows into a culture; and 
2. Recruit the state and sign the top talent

On those, the identity and culture are clearly a work in progress. That takes years to develop. On the second, I would have thought that would take more time as well, but I'm giving Archie an A+ in that category. Archie sold and the administration bought a roadmap that spans three or more years, and you'll never see the progress if you convince yourself it's really a one year solution.

[Stuhoo]

7 minutes ago, Walking Boot of Doom said:

My recommendation is to not look at this as a short term problem and solution. Whether we make the tournament this year or not doesn't actually demonstrate whether we've solved the long term issue that Indiana is a broken program with no culture.

A majority of coaches aren't going to fix anything in one year. Many examples have been given to show that two years isn't long term enough either. Maybe year three? No one can say for certain how long a rebuild or restart is supposed to take.

Understand that the administration is taking a long term approach to this fix, hence the seven year contract, and will be patient because you don't fix this mess in the short term. I believe when Archie signed he even stated that it takes approximately three years to fully implement his defense. For context, here's a nice article from when he was hired that details how he made his program at Dayton - https://www.indystar.com/story/sports/college/indiana/2018/02/27/iu-basketballs-archie-miller-unbending-coach-unshakeable-confidence/379606002/

Here's a quote from Archie in the subsequently linked article:

“Culture is five or six years down the road – whatever they say about Indiana at that point, we’ve earned. But we don’t have one yet.”

https://sports.yahoo.com/news/clean-office-clean-slate-archie-millers-reboot-indiana-starting-scratch-220143659.html

Archie and the administration know that sustained success is going to take time to create. Archie's steps to make this happen are to:

1. Establish a defensive identity that grows into a culture; and 
2. Recruit the state and sign the top talent

On those, the identity and culture are clearly a work in progress. That takes years to develop. On the second, I would have thought that would take more time as well, but I'm giving Archie an A+ in that category. Archie sold and the administration bought a roadmap that spans three or more years, and you'll never see the progress if you convince yourself it's really a one year solution.

 

Or...we could give 20 minutes a game to Vijay!

One of those oughta do it.

 

[Josh]

I tell ya, you guys are certainly bought in.  We not only are losing, but we look miserable in doing it.  The answer?  Stay the course.

This thread is redundant and wonderful.

[JSHoosier]

No one was expecting this team to be championship caliber.  The problem is we're 1.5 years in and don't even see consistent effort, that isn't a high expectation IMO and has got to be concerning.

It's not that the team is losing causing the angst, it's how the team is losing with things that should've shown improvement and hasn't.  

[Josh]

2 minutes ago, JSHoosier said:

No one was expecting this team to be championship caliber.  The problem is we're 1.5 years in and don't even see consistent effort, that isn't a high expectation IMO and has got to be concerning.

The only consistent effort is the lack of effort at the start of every game.  The way we seem to be unprepared to play every single time is very concerning. 

[Stromboli]

I appreciate the guys holding the line here.  Not easy to argue that we're doing things right, when we honestly look terrible.  

 

Some kind of tweak needs to occur.  Archie isn't some mad king, sending our guys out to certain defeat for no reason.  He's a coach, paid to prepare the team, set out a game plan that gives us a chance to win, and make smart adjustments.  This junk in the first 5 minutes is just maddening.  You can count on two Justin Smith possessions resulting in nothing.  You can count on defensive breakdowns for easy looks.  You can count on a double digit deficit.  You can count on an offense that isn't any better than an uncoached collection of basketball players.  

 

There's something between doing nothing and playing Blackmon.  Scripted plays on our first 5 possessions?  Fine.  Easing off the guys so they feel free to shoot (and miss) the long ball without a scowl from Coach?  Fine.  Screens to get the ball anywhere but the dumb dribble weave?  Cool.  Slap the floor before each defensive possession?  That's probably over the line.

 

To say "work harder in practice" isn't saying anything.  Sorry, but it's the same kind of glib response as Crean saying "I'll have to watch the tape" when asked what went wrong.  Now, when Archie says that, he's likely trying to protect his players somewhat, which I totally appreciate (not sure if that's true after he calls them soft all the time).  To be fair to Archie, these shooting percentages are so bad that it really makes winning difficult.  But as soon as you say your players can't shoot, maybe they believe it and continue to miss.  So instead you say they don't work hard, which is at least tied to effort and maybe something they can change.  

 

This thread shouldn't have reached 40 pages.  We shouldn't have Trayce Jackson-Davis assuring us on twitter that he's not decommitting.  We shouldn't ever have to think "Gee, I sure hope we can beat Rutger on Wednesday!"  There are a ton of idiot fans that are embarrassing, but there's also a lot of pretty smart fans watching this s*** show and know there's a disconnect.  Even when we were winning, we could see that this team had some holes, and we talked about it.

 

What would I do?  Greenlight Phinisee, Durham, Green, Juwan, and Evan to shoot every time they're half open from 3.  The go-ahead from the coach may help with some of the confidence.  Some will fall, many won't.  And even if we keep missing, I have to believe that defenses knowing we will shoot will get them out of the lane some.  Leave Justin and Romeo to cut or at least try for a putback.  Maybe even, I don't know, choreograph those two so one sets a screen for the other to get open so the shooter can rocket a pass in to them.  

 

Play with which player brings the ball up the court.  Run plays for Phinisee.  Run plays for Durham.  Put the ball in Romeo's hands and honestly try to run the slump out of him.  The guy will get doubled, so have him ready to make a play.  Every guy needs to know that if their guy leaves them to double Romeo, they get a half step behind the line and expect a pass from Romeo, caught in motion for a rhythm 3.  Practice this.  

 

Trust Juwan.  He's probably our best passer.  Get the ball to him at the top of the key.  Justin at his best is getting dump passes as he cuts to the basket.  Make everyone cut harder and move more.  Sell the cut like you actually expect to get a pass, you might just draw some attention and leave a lane.  Or you might just cut so hard that you get open for a good look.  We aren't spreading the floor by having guys 6 feet from the 3 point line standing there.  So get more movement going and maybe some opportunities will present themselves.  

 

Defense, I think we're okay here.  As soon as our guys aren't moping because they're down 12 points, they may find they have more energy.  

 

FWIW, I'm lightyears from not trusting Archie as our coach.  Twenty years with Archie is still my goal.  Continuity and patience are important.  So is support for these guys.  I was at the Michigan game, and honestly the crowd was awesome.  They remained supportive time after time.  They got loud on a defensive possession when there was no reason to do so.  I don't think anyone expected to win, and so I like to think everyone's issue right now is that we know these guys can do better.  We are not playing to our potential.  We should not be looking forward to next year yet, and most certainly not talking about coaching changes.  No reason to give up at all, and even doing so is the exact wrong message for this team.  Let's salvage this season with some tweaks to what we're doing and maybe we'll get some good juju and be dangerous again.  

 

 

[mdn82]

I tell ya, you guys are certainly bought in.  We not only are losing, but we look miserable in doing it.  The answer?  Stay the course.
This thread is redundant and wonderful.

It is redundant but I don’t know if I would say wonderful. When we had Crean it was simple is better. Now we have Archie and it’s this isn’t working play a player that failed at the NAIA level. Bringing that up doesn’t mean we are buying into anything. That is just nonsense.


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