So some concerns I’m having...

[Brass Cannon 24,222]

3 minutes ago, Walking Boot of Doom said:

I am also optimistic about next year, because the roster structure seems more adequate. Right now, we're leaning completely on a freshman PG and do not have someone capable of acting as a true post defender outside of an undersized Juwan.

The thing that will likely still haunt us is that unless Damezi improves his defense, Al continues to progress with his shooting and plays into a starter or 6 man role, and Armaan is a legitimate off the bench shooting threat, I'm not sure we've addressed our shooting issues. Maybe the interior presence of TJD helps create more spacing, but adding Keion would really help our team offensively.

Jerome is also supposed to be a 3 point shooter. I’m not counting Davis just because his health issues. 

[Walking Boot of Doom 18,170]

Just now, Brass Cannon said:

Jerome is also supposed to be a 3 point shooter. I’m not counting Davis just because his health issues. 

Jerome being back would be a difference maker for sure. A lineup of 5 - TJD, 4 - Hunter, 3 - Keion, 2 - Al, 1 - Phin would be sweet.

[HoosierAloha 30,024]

1 hour ago, pumpfake said:

The subject of trying something different is very interesting to me.  I can see where a coach would be hesitant to do so if it's something he really believes in, has had success with in the past, and feels he will need to stock the roster with different players that suit his style of play.  He also has to recognize that the longer the futility drags on, not to mention failure to win big, things will only get worse and worse for the program.

One concern I have is that his system worked at Dayton where his team was allowed to mature and they played with experienced players (i.e. stability).  Now at IU he's trying to recruit blue chippers, guys like Romeo, who may not be here long enough to perfect their game.  When you have frequent player turnover, from starters, it seems like you'd better run a system that the players can pick up and execute in short time. 

I don't think a complex, finely tuned style of play is well suited to a constantly changing roster.  And if you're bringing in 5* talent, you're going to have early departures.

It's a judgement CAM has to make.  I'm too dumb to know what the answer is.

I don't think Archie and Co. want a team full of blue chipper one and done players.  He's talked about being an old team.  I believe we'll get the occasional one and done but I think we'll see more of the high 4 and low 5 star players staying for 3-4 years.  (at least that's what he seemed to imply)

I'm not that high on next year's team as others.  Yes, having Jackson-Davis, Brooks, and Hunter would definitely be sweet.  They're highly ranked and skilled basketball players.  I want to see who is going to lead the damn team and who is going to buy into not getting their @$$ kicked.  When the team stops giving the "damn, we tried" look and starts playing like they really want to win is when this will turn around.  I'm not sure that happens by just bringing in Jackson-Davis, Brooks, and getting Hunter healthy.  I think it's going to be getting rid of a few players, having a few players look in the mirror, and having Al and Phin step up to lead.  If Brooks and/or Hunter start in the frontcourt with Jackson-Davis while another player comes off the bench that might help. 

[Bailey7878 2,506]

Things Im watching moving forward:
1. If we lose out (or only win 1-2 more) starting three 4 stars and a 5 star what are the ramifications of that?
2. How many guys leave the program? Obviously several bad fits.
3. How does Archie fill any open spots? Can he re tool quickly and be competitive next year?

I know this missing the tourney three years in a row ties an iu record with the crean honeymoon years. Next year could break the record. Since knight was fired we have made the ncaa a lousy 10 times. Barely over 50 percent.


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[Bailey7878 2,506]

At this point if the losing streak gets to 10 games long we will not be making the tourney and Archie better play the young guys over Fitz and Mcroberts. 
If we waste this season and then go into next year with the young guys not having had any experience that will be beyond poor roster management. 

But that gets you a year three crean youth excuse. This is kind of setting up like the crean honeymoon.

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[DChoosier 7,773]

1 hour ago, mdn82 said:

I thought we tried something different last night giving extended minutes to Moore, Anderson, and Forrester.


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Moore played 4 minutes

Jake played 8

Anderson, however, did get 22.

Smith played the second most minutes behind Al. Smith is really an enigma this year.  Remember the pre-season whispers that he was going to the NBA after this season... lol. 

 

A big challenge to Archie “shaking things up” is that Smith and Green have not improved and Davis, McBob and Hunter have been hurt all year. Add in that Jake, Moore and Anderson aren’t really ready and the result is that depth, which we thought would be a strength, is a glaring weakness. Throw in the overwhelmed Fitzner and that is a staggering 9 players that have not met (by actual play or due to injury) pre-season expectations.

[Feathery 4,005]

1 hour ago, Brass Cannon said:

Difference is at Dayton he lost 3 senior starters at Dayton after his first year. Going by our starters at the end of last year we have lost 1 and replaced him with a 5 Star “One and Done”. 

Very different situations. We have players who appeared to be getting it last year. Who now we can’t even stand to watch play. 

We lost 3 seniors who contributed in Johnson, Newkirk, and McSwain. Losing Johnson’s threat from deep has clogged the lane. Romeo might be a one and done but he isn’t a shooter. Every team is clogging the lane bc we don’t have anyone who has proven to be consistent as Rob was. 

Its not identical but it’s similar. Especially when you start comparing Archie to top coaches after their first 2 seasons. Jury is still out for me, but I’m not going to say Archie can’t coach yet. Like I’ve said elsewhere I’ll give him 3 years. 

[Brass Cannon 24,222]

10 minutes ago, Bailey7878 said:

But that gets you a year three crean youth excuse. This is kind of setting up like the crean honeymoon.

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Which is why I said don’t do the thing that would lead to that excuse. Did you miss that part?

[Brass Cannon 24,222]

1 minute ago, Feathery said:

We lost 3 seniors who contributed in Johnson, Newkirk, and McSwain. Losing Johnson’s threat from deep has clogged the lane. Romeo might be a one and done but he isn’t a shooter. Every team is clogging the lane bc we don’t have anyone who has proven to be consistent as Rob was. 

Its not identical but it’s similar. Especially when you start comparing Archie to top coaches after their first 2 seasons. Jury is still out for me, but I’m not going to say Archie can’t coach yet. Like I’ve said elsewhere I’ll give him 3 years. 

1 starter versus 3 is not similar in the scope of basketball. Not even close every team should expect to lose at least 1. 

[Magnanimous 4,462]

6 minutes ago, Bailey7878 said:

But that gets you a year three crean youth excuse. This is kind of setting up like the crean honeymoon.

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Unfortunately, it is what it is. Other than Juwan, Crean didn’t really leave Archie much upperclassmen talent, and the Crean recruits Archie retained are marginal talents at best. If you don’t have that and you can’t nab some quality transfers immediately, then you’re pretty limited. We had a scholarship crunch and a roster that was capped by APR concerns, so there wasn’t much wiggle room for Archie to bring in talent beyond freshmen. I’d rather have a Romeo than a second grad transfer this year, so that’s pretty much what Archie was left with going into this season. The 2016 and 2017 recruiting classes were huge wiffs by Crean. 

Archie (or any coach besides K and Cal) needs a couple of waves talent to come in to get things on track and build a foundation. Unfortunately that means that it’ll inevitably be a multi-year rebuild. And you see that with most coaches who take over a program. Years 3-5 are the ones that they can really be evaluated on. This is especially true when you consider that Archie didn’t/couldn’t bring in any new players for his first season. 

[Hoosierfan2017 20,822]

One important thing to note is that the "3 year grace period" wasn't the problem for Crean. He got IU "back" in years 4 and 5. The problem for him was that he was unable to sustain it. If Archie is able to get us back like Crean did I like his chances of sustaining it better. 

[Bailey7878 2,506]

We lost 3 seniors who contributed in Johnson, Newkirk, and McSwain. Losing Johnson’s threat from deep has clogged the lane. Romeo might be a one and done but he isn’t a shooter. Every team is clogging the lane bc we don’t have anyone who has proven to be consistent as Rob was. 
Its not identical but it’s similar. Especially when you start comparing Archie to top coaches after their first 2 seasons. Jury is still out for me, but I’m not going to say Archie can’t coach yet. Like I’ve said elsewhere I’ll give him 3 years. 

But we are told archie cant win with crean players yet went 9-9 with crean players last year

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[Bailey7878 2,506]

Which is why I said don’t do the thing that would lead to that excuse. Did you miss that part?

I dis not mean you. I meant in general a guy like fred glass will look at next year like a year one. They will be young so my guess is glass will not judge until year 4.

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[Feathery 4,005]

6 minutes ago, Bailey7878 said:

But we are told archie cant win with crean players yet went 9-9 with crean players last year

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I’m not telling you that. I’m just looking at a terribly flawed roster and one that lacks experience/leadership. Everyone points to one and done and star rankings. Experience matters more, unless you are Duke and take the best of the best. Watching the game last night the starting 5 had the game well in control and then bc of fouls, the bench got exposed  that’s a talent problem.

Side note. 2020 looks to be when the 1 and done rule will be eliminated. So I look for Duke and UK to come crashing down when their batch of one and dines are gone and they don’t have experience quality talent to pick up the slack. 

This timeline will also coincide with IU having an experienced talented roster. Good times could very well be ahead, but we need to be patient and let the man work. 

[Class of '66 Old Fart 83,825]

I want to see Race get back on the court even if it's only 5-8 minutes/game just to get some idea of what, if anything, he may be able to give us next season.   

[Rico 2,984]

13 minutes ago, Magnanimous said:

 

Archie (or any coach besides K and Cal) needs a couple of waves talent to come in to get things on track and build a foundation. Unfortunately that means that it’ll inevitably be a multi-year rebuild. And you see that with most coaches who take over a program. Years 3-5 are the ones that they can really be evaluated on. This is especially true when you consider that Archie didn’t/couldn’t bring in any new players for his first season. 

Let me see...in year 2, Bob Knight had IU in the FF.

Let me see...in year 2, Rick Pittino had Providence in the FF.

Let me see...in year 1, Tubby Smith had Georgia in the SS.

I could go on and on.  

[Bailey7878 2,506]

I’m not telling you that. I’m just looking at a terribly flawed roster and one that lacks experience/leadership. Everyone points to one and done and star rankings. Experience matters more, unless you are Duke and take the best of the best. Watching the game last night the starting 5 had the game well in control and then bc of fouls, the bench got exposed  that’s a talent problem.
Side note. 2020 looks to be when the 1 and done rule will be eliminated. So I look for Duke and UK to come crashing down when their batch of one and dines are gone and they don’t have experience quality talent to pick up the slack. 
This timeline will also coincide with IU having an experienced talented roster. Good times could very well be ahead, but we need to be patient and let the man work. 

At this point i will believe the good times when i see them. At least next year i will have zero expectations.

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[monskisprodigy 1,814]

3 minutes ago, Rico said:

Let me see...in year 2, Bob Knight had IU in the FF.

Let me see...in year 2, Rick Pittino had Providence in the FF.

Let me see...in year 1, Tubby Smith had Georgia in the SS.

I could go on and on.  

What was the roster make up of those teams? Genuinely interested to see what they looked like. I agree that we have several areas for concern, but we are a relatively young team and injuries have plagued us and forced us to call on guys that just aren't ready.

[Uspshoosier 44,987]

Let me see...in year 2, Bob Knight had IU in the FF.

Let me see...in year 2, Rick Pittino had Providence in the FF.

Let me see...in year 1, Tubby Smith had Georgia in the SS.

I could go on and on.  

And the other side of the fence they could put up Hall of fame coaches who struggled in year 2

They could go on and on.

Speaking of the first guy on your list

 

https://www.indystar.com/story/sports/college/indiana/2018/02/28/bob-knight-likes-what-he-sees-iu-coach-archie-miller/381994002/

 

 

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[Rico 2,984]

3 minutes ago, Uspshoosier said:

And the other side of the fence they could put up Hall of fame coaches who struggled in year 2

They could go on and on.

Speaking of the first guy on your list

 

https://www.indystar.com/story/sports/college/indiana/2018/02/28/bob-knight-likes-what-he-sees-iu-coach-archie-miller/381994002/

 

 

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I understand that, but it gets somewhat old when people start talking "patience" and throw out their examples.  I will dive more into HoF coaches and what their records were.  But I get it when you are trying to "build" a program.