Indiana vs. (9) Wisconsin Game Thread 11/4 12:00PM ET ABC

[Hoosier Guy 7,529]

Just now, coonhounds said:

It is old watching us start off good and let it slip or being in games only to come up short every time is a bit annoying.

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After the Michigan State game, I finally saw the light. I’m never getting my hopes up with IU again until they prove they’re a different program. And since hell would’ve frozen over by then, I’d say I’m never getting my hopes up again

[pumpfake 3,946]

You know, I can remember back in the 80's talking to a buddy of mine and complaining that until IU decides to actually make a bold coaching move and bring in a guy that's proven he can win at this level, they'll never be anything less than a door mat.  Here we are 30 or so years later and it still hasn't happened.  What really frosts my arse is that I still pay attention to this program.

[Hoosier Guy 7,529]

5 minutes ago, Joe DeLow said:

"After firing Coach Allen, we are going to hire this chair. I think it can bring a lot to the program and make us a winner. It is missing 2 wheels, the cushion is wore out and the arms are broke, but it is a fighter and can lead this program to greatness." -Fred Glass

As long as the chair can play better defense than James Blackmon, I’m cool with it

[Hoosier Guy 7,529]

1 minute ago, Joe DeLow said:

This defense looks like a group of James Blackmons weekly.

Such a dumb team and program

[GnarlyTimGarl 1,433]

A few thoughts on the game, but mostly thoughts about where this team and program stand after today's loss... it's a long one, as per usual.

- I did not expect IU to win this game. I did expect IU to come out rejuvenated because no one gave them a chance in this one. They did... to an extent. But after the first 20 minutes or so, I saw a team that was deflated and resigned to losing. I am extremely disappointed in our composure and effort in the game today. From the coaches and the players.

- The Ellison fumble. That was garbage officiating. The play was blown dead. There were no replay angles that showed indisputable evidence of a fumble. How they ruled Wisconsin ball is beyond my comprehension. You think they would make that call in the Ohio State vs. Michigan game? Of course not because it would be all over the sports news the next day. The play was whistled dead. Even if it wasn't, where was the indisputable evidence??? Absolute garbage call. Now, they still kicked our butts and we pretty much stopped playing afterwards, but still. I'm looking forward to hearing the officials' explanation on that one. But you know what's worse? We probably won't hear a thing because it's IU football and no one really cares. Sigh.

- Mike DeBord/Offense. I defended DeBord earlier this year. Personally, I don't feel he is a bad coach. But he seems at a loss with this offense. Doesn't matter who the QB is. Neither Ramsey and Lagow are good enough right now and that's disappointing. The O-Line has been bad. Guys like Cronk and Knight were supposed to step up this year, but they're struggling. What's tough is that they're still two of our best options. We do not have a RB who can gain yards on the ground except Ellison, but he is prone to fumbles. All our other RBs seem WAY out of their league. Cobbs is fantastic, but all of our other receivers have been inconsistent and don't play near well enough to offset everything else. The playcalling seems unimaginative and borders somewhere between overly cautious and not having any faith in much of anything.

- Defense. Honestly, they weren't horrible and once again, they were put in horrible situations on short fields. That being said, it was just like the Michigan game except against a better QB. Taylor is a beast and we couldn't stop their power running game. Plain and simple. And that's about all that needs to be said. They did seem to lose interest at the end of the game, which was extremely disheartening.

Okay, I'm tired of talking about this game. So here's the big picture... in what was setting up to be one of our deepest and most-talented teams in years, we are 3-6 (0-6). Very, very disappointing. I had faith in this team and defended them a lot this year. Folks, I badly want to see Tom Allen succeed as head coach. Badly. But as a whole, we have taken a sizable step back this season. It's obvious. The whole "breakthrough" marketing mantra was stupid to begin with because it adds undue expectations that a first-year coach doesn't need. I think the marketing department really dropped the ball, there. They did the same thing in Wilson's first year with "Win Today!" If you don't live up to it, you look stupid. And guess what? We look stupid.

Fortunately, we have three games remaining against the worst of the conference. And these are HUGE games for the perception of the program. Win all three, we tread water and can at least say we are 6-6 again. Not great, but okay. Losing one means we lost to a bad team, eliminates a bowl game and ensures a losing record. Not good. Losing two means we've lost any confidence built from the season. Really not good. Losing all three means we're the worst team in the Big Ten when we were supposed to be mediocre. This last outcome pretty much erases any momentum we had from the Wilson era, costs us any respect we had been given and pretty much forces us to start from scratch once again.

I so hope this team gets it together and wins three straight because the alternatives really hurt the direction of the program. But my confidence in this team is waning fast...

[TXHoosierDaddy 1,375]

24 minutes ago, GnarlyTimGarl said:

Fortunately, we have three games remaining against the worst of the conference. And these are HUGE games for the perception of the program.

If we don't show well in these next 3, I worry that some of our recruits will start looking elsewhere. If we start losing recruits, then we've got bigger problems. Absolutely, need to show well against the bottom of the conference and Purdue. 

[Josh 12,652]

On that fumble...who called for the review? Simce it was ruled that the player was down, it was just a standard non-reviewable play. Did Wisconsin throw the flag? I didn't think they did. Is the college rule different from the pros here?

And of course like others have stated, the refs blew the play dead. What a terrible officiating job there.

[WayneFleekHoosier 48,549]

Our problem is talent. You can really only coach bad talent so much. Our starters in recruiting?
Greg Gooch #972
Jacob Robinson #1061
Nate Hoff- N/A
Robert McCray-  #3415
Chris Covington #3361
Tegray Scales- #423
Tony Fields- #1282
Rashard Fant #346
Jonathan Crawford #928
Chase Dutra #1086
Andre Brown #1465
That is according to the 247composite. That is 2 players in the Top 500(our two best players) and 4 in the Top 1000. That is an issue in itself when you want to be a competitive 7 win team with a not so good coach.
Another problem? Their backups aren't any better. So you have bad talent going up against bad talent in practice with bad coaching saying that they're good. It isn't any different on offense. Our recruiting and coaching ability have to step up. If you're entire roster consists of "diamond in the rough" prospects, you likely aren't winning.
 

I like this post. Coaching and attitude can only compensate so much.

I've harped on IUBB in regards to recruiting for years because we have the money and status to recruit with the best.

I'd like IUFB to recruit better too, but how? No history, little winning. It seems Allen is recruiting slightly better than we've had before but similiar.

I've coached hockey and basketball for years and it's hard to beat talent. Talent usually wins. When talent equals talent then coaching impact elevates.


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[mdn82 25,510]

I think I am just crazy and just feel we could have a better program. Almost like the coaches feel we aren’t good enough and don’t actually try going after talent. 

Yes, coaches intentionally try to minimize a program they attach their name to for decades on end for no apparent reason.


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[johnsoniu 6,529]

Just now, mdn82 said:

Yes, coaches intentionally try to minimize a program they attach their name to for decades on end for no apparent reason.


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Forget it, he's on a roll

[Hoosierfan2017 21,657]

I went to the game this year, my first one of the season. It was enjoyable for the first three quarters. You could definitely feel the energy leave the stadium after the Ellison fumble call though. That was a game changer. Lagow played pretty well for the first three quarters, but the play calling still drives me insane. There was one play on 3rd and like 20 and we do a qb run with Lagow. That's a wasted down, we might as well just kneel it. I bought into the hype early this season but the coaching staff isn't very good. Allen seems like a nice guy, and he definitely wants to be here, but I'm quickly losing confidence in him. 

[Old Friend 8,389]

Okay, so I went down today.   Got what I expected. 

I wonder why so many are so low on Allen in the guy's first season.  We do not have a good quarterback, or at least one we can count on as "the guy" all the time.  Personally, I thought we were much better using both of them because it made us versatile.  Using one or the other full time takes a lot of the playbook away no matter who it is.    We do not have a good offensive line.  We do not have a break away running back like we've had.  And we don't have any depth.   Those are not Allen's issues.  Nor are they DeBord's.

You can't tell me on one hand we have no talent and on the other blame the coaches for not winning.   The only worry I have is Allen is so defensive minded that he won't recruit offensive players the way Wilson did.  Indiana will not win consistently focusing on that side of the ball.  Our defense is generally better than it has been for a couple of decades; but we're 3-6.  We are not on par with Wisconsin, Michigan, Ohio State, Penn State, etc.  We're just not.

More will be determined by the next 3 games; all of which I expect Indiana to win.  In Allen's first year, I am not willing to blame him because he made such a difference in our defense a year ago.  That unit has also had significant injury.  I think blaming DeBord is completely irrational because he has a bad line (Lagow had less than 2 seconds many times today and we can't run the ball), and doesn't have a #1 QB.  

The post above that talked about talent and listed rankings is a little misleading because many of those players are better than that.  Seriously, people think TeGray Scales is really #423 in his class? Covington #3361?  McCray #3415?   That's nuts.  Those rankings mean very little; and while I understand the point of the post, I don't agree with the argument that we don't have talent.  We DO have talent.  In fact, Indiana has enough talent to win with the #1's.  They do not have enough depth to win with the #2's, which is why they don't beat teams like Wisconsin, Ohio State, or Penn State, and injuries make it worse.  That's simple reality.  

The mess right now is we don't have enough difference makers on the offensive side of the ball.  I am a bit leery of Allen in that regard; but time will tell.  Our 2018 recruiting class has 10 offensive players and a couple of decent linemen.  I hate losing as much as anyone; but other than Maryland, what game have we lost this year that wasn't truly an expected loss?  MSU on the road was never going to be an easy game; especially following last season.   Hell, they beat Iowa and Michigan this season.   We are honestly one game below where I thought we'd be; and in this staff's first season with this roster and the injuries we've had, I understand the frustration but think many are placing blame where it doesn't belong.

[bigrod 2,871]

Might have to look pretty hard to find a Power 5 conference game that will have less interest than Indiana vs. Illinois next weekend. I know we can win out and still go to a bowl game, but 6-6 does not excite me. 

Wish I was more confident we could win out. This team just seems to find ways to stay close, but pack it in at the end. Not confident at all we win out.


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[jmsgws 2,181]

30 minutes ago, Old Friend said:

Okay, so I went down today.   Got what I expected. 

I wonder why so many are so low on Allen in the guy's first season.  We do not have a good quarterback, or at least one we can count on as "the guy" all the time.  Personally, I thought we were much better using both of them because it made us versatile.  Using one or the other full time takes a lot of the playbook away no matter who it is.    We do not have a good offensive line.  We do not have a break away running back like we've had.  And we don't have any depth.   Those are not Allen's issues.  Nor are they DeBord's.

You can't tell me on one hand we have no talent and on the other blame the coaches for not winning.   The only worry I have is Allen is so defensive minded that he won't recruit offensive players the way Wilson did.  Indiana will not win consistently focusing on that side of the ball.  Our defense is generally better than it has been for a couple of decades; but we're 3-6.  We are not on par with Wisconsin, Michigan, Ohio State, Penn State, etc.  We're just not.

More will be determined by the next 3 games; all of which I expect Indiana to win.  In Allen's first year, I am not willing to blame him because he made such a difference in our defense a year ago.  That unit has also had significant injury.  I think blaming DeBord is completely irrational because he has a bad line (Lagow had less than 2 seconds many times today and we can't run the ball), and doesn't have a #1 QB.  

The post above that talked about talent and listed rankings is a little misleading because many of those players are better than that.  Seriously, people think TeGray Scales is really #423 in his class? Covington #3361?  McCray #3415?   That's nuts.  Those rankings mean very little; and while I understand the point of the post, I don't agree with the argument that we don't have talent.  We DO have talent.  In fact, Indiana has enough talent to win with the #1's.  They do not have enough depth to win with the #2's, which is why they don't beat teams like Wisconsin, Ohio State, or Penn State, and injuries make it worse.  That's simple reality.  

The mess right now is we don't have enough difference makers on the offensive side of the ball.  I am a bit leery of Allen in that regard; but time will tell.  Our 2018 recruiting class has 10 offensive players and a couple of decent linemen.  I hate losing as much as anyone; but other than Maryland, what game have we lost this year that wasn't truly an expected loss?  MSU on the road was never going to be an easy game; especially following last season.   Hell, they beat Iowa and Michigan this season.   We are honestly one game below where I thought we'd be; and in this staff's first season with this roster and the injuries we've had, I understand the frustration but think many are placing blame where it doesn't belong.

Record wise, I agree with you 100%.  Part of what has me so down, though is the way we lose.  it always seems like it is one or two really dumb plays that lose the game.  That just completely deflates everyone.  Today, the play that really ticked me off was the 4th and 8 or 9 in the 4th quarter.  If you are on their end of the field, maybe.  You are the under dog and getting beat, so what do you have to lose, but that close to your own endzone you are just asking for the blowout.  

[Hoosierfan2017 21,657]

8 minutes ago, jmsgws said:

Record wise, I agree with you 100%.  Part of what has me so down, though is the way we lose.  it always seems like it is one or two really dumb plays that lose the game.  That just completely deflates everyone.  Today, the play that really ticked me off was the 4th and 8 or 9 in the 4th quarter.  If you are on their end of the field, maybe.  You are the under dog and getting beat, so what do you have to lose, but that close to your own endzone you are just asking for the blowout.  

That's what happens when you play not to lose like we've done all season. I knew we weren't playing to win when we stopped them on 4th down with like 1:25 left in the first half and we didn't call a timeout. We could've gotten the ball back with more than a minute on the clock and two timeouts, but instead we decided to let the clock run and go into the half down 14-10. Im tired of it to be quite honest. It's hard to root for a team when the coaches do stuff like that every week. At least let the fans know you're playing to win. 

[Old Friend 8,389]

10 minutes ago, jmsgws said:

Record wise, I agree with you 100%.  Part of what has me so down, though is the way we lose.  it always seems like it is one or two really dumb plays that lose the game.  That just completely deflates everyone.  Today, the play that really ticked me off was the 4th and 8 or 9 in the 4th quarter.  If you are on their end of the field, maybe.  You are the under dog and getting beat, so what do you have to lose, but that close to your own endzone you are just asking for the blowout.  

I agree with you, too.  At least the first part of it.  I thought today a couple of calls (which admittedly, I can't truly agree or disagree with because I was in the stands) took the air out of the place and the team today.    At the end of the day, a loss is a loss.  This game,. nor the Penn State game's final score were reflective of the game.   A couple of plays here and there....seems to be the thing that gets us.  

Honestly?  I don't think that's talent and I don't think it's coaching.  I think it's culture.  ALL culture.  The Cubs lost for 108 years.  The fans (and I'm a Reds guy, but have been to Wrigley many times) seemed to expect bad things to happen.  Karma is real.  Things don't happen by chance or coincidence, I don't think.  The best thing that can happen to that program is a culture change.   Our basketball program is a prime example.  We've been down a while, but that's not the culture of that program. The culture is winning, so everybody involved expects to win and sometimes has inflated expectations.  It's damned hard to change, but that's what needs to happen.

[azguybob 108]

It's IU FB...will never change....long string of bad coaching hires have doomed it forever !!....hey they didn't score...83....lol...whatever happened to ole ...Bill "we held them to 83" Lynch...oh I remember he is at Butler as head of janatorial depeatment I think !!!

Edited November 4, 2017 by azguybob

[Old Friend 8,389]

57 minutes ago, bigrod said:

Wish I was more confident we could win out. This team just seems to find ways to stay close, but pack it in at the end. Not confident at all we win out.


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Not against teams we should beat.  We've won the games we should have, really.  Except maybe Maryland.   I think we'll win out, too.

[Old Friend 8,389]

6 minutes ago, azguybob said:

It's IU FB...will never change....long string of bad coaching hires have doomed it forever !!....hey they didn't score...82....lol...whatever happened to ole ...Bill "we held them to 82" Lynch...oh I remember he is at Butler as head of janatorial depeatment I think !!!

One argument refutes the other.  Indiana football is Indiana football.  Who could we hire?  Not like this is some destination job.  Allen may be just fine.  Give the guy a chance.  He's done well recruiting and he has done well with the defense.  He's not close to wearing out his welcome yet

[Hoosier Guy 7,529]

1 minute ago, Old Friend said:

One argument refutes the other.  Indiana football is Indiana football.  Who could we hire?  Not like this is some destination job.  Allen may be just fine.  Give the guy a chance.  He's done well recruiting and he has done well with the defense.  He's not close to wearing out his welcome yet

He needs to start Reese Taylor at QB next season. There’s a reason Allen called him a QB recruit