TOM CREAN FIRED

[MartintheMopMan 7,765]

The 2015-16 Hoosiers could just play zone.

I'm dead.

[hoosierpap 14,300]

Bahahhaa

[KB0 827]

The 2015-16 Hoosiers could just play zone.

 

Not so sure about that....have you seen a Crean coached zone? :)

[JSHoosier 19,743]

I don't see any reason why Tom Crean's product can't win a national title. Most here said he'd never assemble a better team than Cody's sophomore year--until he did.

I respect your perspective. I simply don't see the relevance of Indiana's greatness in a past era. We are fighting a totally different war now. Timing is everything. Bob Knight was here at the right point in history. Maybe Crean is coming into his own as he turns 50?

What coach though has accomplished as little as Tom Crean has in his nearly 20 year career, and he hasn't accomplished much, then suddenly put it all together?  That's not a list that would include Cal or Boeheim as both were far more accomplished than Crean at that point.  Is it possible, sure, but I'd have serious reservations about that.  I happen to believe a sample size like that is pretty indicative of a coach's ability.

 

He's shown he can do a good coaching job for a season or two, no one has alleged otherwise.  That's not the problem and never has been.  He's never sustained it though, that's the problem.  That sample size tells us he has peaks and valleys with peaks that aren't very high, and it's going to take more than a season or two to prove that's changed.

 

We can't really say if he has or not.

[Defenserocks28 393]

I've no doubts at all. He's not a coach who's capable of winning a National Championship. Not this year, not next year, not ten years from now. Once it became obvious to me that this was the case, I no longer needed to consider the impact of "next year's recruits" or stress out over wins and losses and how they might impact our standings or seeding, etc. Of course I support IU, and would like nothing better than to see another banner hoisted to the rafters, but I won't allow myself to get caught up in the moment. One need only look at the man pacing the side of the court to be reminded of the futility of that exercise.

THIS X e^10000000000000

[MadAboutIndiana 402]

What coach though has accomplished as little as Tom Crean has in his nearly 20 year career, and he hasn't accomplished much, then suddenly put it all together? That's not a list that would include Cal or Boeheim as both were far more accomplished than Crean at that point. Is it possible, sure, but I'd have serious reservations about that. I happen to believe a sample size like that is pretty indicative of a coach's ability.

He's shown he can do a good coaching job for a season or two, no one has alleged otherwise. That's not the problem and never has been. He's never sustained it though, that's the problem. That sample size tells us he has peaks and valleys with peaks that aren't very high, and it's going to take more than a season or two to prove that's changed.

We can't really say if he has or not.

Well, we are about to find out these next few seasons...

I contend that Indiana fans have extremely unrealistic expectations for a program that was dormant not too long ago. His track record is pretty clear. He builds programs. It's not like he took over a powerhouse Marquette program, and in one cycle he had them in the Final Four. One cycle at Indiana, and he builds the best team in the country. And now here he is with another conference champion. I know it's an absolute travesty if Indiana ends any year without the national title--but the guy is clearly setting IU up for that kind of success. I mean, it's apparent. This is the first year the program has been healthy since the mid 90s. There is depth to overcome injury, there is class balance, major talent, and major recruits on the way.

If just one of Cody/Victor had stayed, we are talking about 3 top 10 teams in 4 years. That dip was unavoidable especially when Vonleh turned out to be a disinterested bust. That isn't due to "coaching." There are things that happen in CBB that our fans will blame on Crean, but when it happens at another program they suddenly look past it.

You can't look at the first 3 years. Look at his five year resume and tell me he doesn't have the ability to build a title winning team. It's asinine to ignore what he's done just because they were beaten in the S16 in the past.

Nothing will ever be good enough, and eventually we will push Tom out in favor of some coach who will appeal to the sensibilities of the pasty banner-head fans. Then we will really see what we had.

[TrueHoosier62 1,592]

Nothing will ever be good enough, and eventually we will push Tom out in favor of some coach who will appeal to the sensibilities of the pasty banner-head fans. Then we will really see what we had.

I hope you just made a typo, and didn't actually mean to refer to some of us as "pasty" banner-head fans as a form of derision. And by "pasty", I assume you mean old, white, Bob Knight lovin', national championship flag wavin', bologna sandwich eating, coke drinking, rowdy IU fans; yes? Come to think of it, I should thank you, if that's what you meant. I'm all of those things. Not sure how others here might take that though. Some of them probably don't like bologna. 

[JSHoosier 19,743]

Well, we are about to find out these next few seasons...

I contend that Indiana fans have extremely unrealistic expectations for a program that was dormant not too long ago. His track record is pretty clear. He builds programs. It's not like he took over a powerhouse Marquette program, and in one cycle he had them in the Final Four. One cycle at Indiana, and he builds the best team in the country. And now here he is with another conference champion. I know it's an absolute travesty if Indiana ends any year without the national title--but the guy is clearly setting IU up for that kind of success. I mean, it's apparent. This is the first year the program has been healthy since the mid 90s. There is depth to overcome injury, there is class balance, major talent, and major recruits on the way.

If just one of Cody/Victor had stayed, we are talking about 3 top 10 teams in 4 years. That dip was unavoidable especially when Vonleh turned out to be a disinterested bust. That isn't due to "coaching." There are things that happen in CBB that our fans will blame on Crean, but when it happens at another program they suddenly look past it.

You can't look at the first 3 years. Look at his five year resume and tell me he doesn't have the ability to build a title winning team. It's asinine to ignore what he's done just because they were beaten in the S16 in the past.

Nothing will ever be good enough, and eventually we will push Tom out in favor of some coach who will appeal to the sensibilities of the pasty banner-head fans. Then we will really see what we had.

You may say that expectations are unrealistic.  I say the program has everything a coach needs to win and win big, I say the only way we will ever get back to where we should be is to maintain the expectations of one of the best programs in CBB history because if we lower the bar once we can always find a way to do it again.

 

I can't give him a pass for year 6 because he built that team, so the results should fall squarely on him.  Year 3 underachieved as well.  He has a resume of almost 20 years, with 3 conference titles and only one trip past the Sweet 16; if he were looking for a job now top programs wouldn't give him a second look.

 

I've given him credit.  There are things he does well, some he does extremely well.  It's too soon to say he's changed when it comes to his weaknesses or that he's suddenly anything more than he's ever shown.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree.  You want to look at a handful of years and think he's a championship caliber coach, I look at a larger sample size and see nothing that says he is.

[Striper 192]

You may say that expectations are unrealistic.  I say the program has everything a coach needs to win and win big, I say the only way we will ever get back to where we should be is to maintain the expectations of one of the best programs in CBB history because if we lower the bar once we can always find a way to do it again.

 

UCLA fans make the exact same claim...

[JSHoosier 19,743]

UCLA fans make the exact same claim...

They should.  Alford won't do it, but that doesn't mean they should lower the bar to something more achievable for him.

[MadAboutIndiana 402]

You may say that expectations are unrealistic. I say the program has everything a coach needs to win and win big, I say the only way we will ever get back to where we should be is to maintain the expectations of one of the best programs in CBB history because if we lower the bar once we can always find a way to do it again.

I can't give him a pass for year 6 because he built that team, so the results should fall squarely on him. Year 3 underachieved as well. He has a resume of almost 20 years, with 3 conference titles and only one trip past the Sweet 16; if he were looking for a job now top programs wouldn't give him a second look.

I've given him credit. There are things he does well, some he does extremely well. It's too soon to say he's changed when it comes to his weaknesses or that he's suddenly anything more than he's ever shown.

We'll have to agree to disagree. You want to look at a handful of years and think he's a championship caliber coach, I look at a larger sample size and see nothing that says he is.

I'm definitely not arguing that he's one of the best coaches around. But he is as good as we're going to get, if not better. Other than the 7-10 legends like Self, Izzo, Cal, Coach K, etc... Crean is in the group waiting behind those guys to retire. My stance is simply that Indiana should hang on to him and see if he doesn't take off in the next few years. If you can get Donavon, do it. But it'd be epically dumb to toast Crean for a coach of similar caliber. He's laid a terrific foundation.

[MartintheMopMan 7,765]

. . .

 

I contend that Indiana fans have extremely unrealistic expectations for a program that was dormant not too long ago. His track record is pretty clear. He builds programs. It's not like he took over a powerhouse Marquette program, and in one cycle he had them in the Final Four. One cycle at Indiana, and he builds the best team in the country. And now here he is with another conference champion. I know it's an absolute travesty if Indiana ends any year without the national title--but the guy is clearly setting IU up for that kind of success. I mean, it's apparent. This is the first year the program has been healthy since the mid 90s. There is depth to overcome injury, there is class balance, major talent, and major recruits on the way.

 

. . .

Nothing will ever be good enough, and eventually we will push Tom out in favor of some coach who will appeal to the sensibilities of the pasty banner-head fans. Then we will really see what we had.

I think a lot of the response you'll get (and it might even be fair) is this:

 

Tom Crean can definitely build a program. He can take a program which is falling, and bring them back up to a respectable level, if anyone says otherwise they haven't been watching his last 20 years. This does not however, mean he can win a national championship. I absolutely respect and appreciate Crean for everything he has done for the program so far, but I am nervous about his ability to take the next step. There are simply different skills involved in the two processes and with the except of the latter half of this year, Crean has not showed me he has those skills. I would love to be proven wrong, whether through winning a championship or at worst an understandable loss after a great showing. As many have said for most of his tenure, Crean is a dynamite recruiter, especially when it comes to spotting diamonds in the rough. And is almost as good at developing and polishing those diamonds until they are bright and shiny. This is an essential talent for a coach who is going to bring kids into a six win program when a five-star player is just not in the cards, but less important when you're Bob Knight or Bill Self or Coach K and kids are dreaming of your offer.

 

It's similar to Jeff Fischer, who is seen by many as being above-average at moving NFL teams and likely has kept his job with the Rams for such a purpose. That ability does not make him a good coach for the other seasons, but it makes him very valuable when he's needed. I expect the Rams to move on to a new coach in 2017 (if I recall correctly that is when his current contract ends and he has not been extended) with the goal of becoming a Superb Owl contender.

 

A lot of people, including me, do hope Crean does well and shows he can win consistently, but understand if he can't then we need someone who can. And too many people get caught up in being against Crean and forgetting his accomplishments instead of just looking at the situation rationally with an outsider's mentality. Crean should not be unceremoniously fired and ran off of campus (unless he forces the issue), but we should recognize everything he did for the program, thank him for putting us back on the map, and move on to a coach who has the skill set of a National Championship winner. 

 

If only we could be sure what that skill set is. Where are the data analysts on this one? I can tell you all the factors surrounding NFL coaches, but have nothing for college basketball coaches.

[drock161 586]

I'm definitely not arguing that he's one of the best coaches around. But he is as good as we're going to get, if not better. Other than the 7-10 legends like Self, Izzo, Cal, Coach K, etc... Crean is in the group waiting behind those guys to retire. My stance is simply that Indiana should hang on to him and see if he doesn't take off in the next few years. If you can get Donavon, do it. But it'd be epically dumb to toast Crean for a coach of similar caliber. He's laid a terrific foundation.

 

I don't think a single person wants him gone just to do the same thing again. In fact, it's been stated many times on here by many people that the next hire has to be a leap up, not sideways.

What I don't agree with is that once the few top coaches retire that all of the more medium ones all of a sudden become superstars. Yes, some may step up and improve their status, but what magically makes Crean a soon-to-be legend just because someone else retired? Were Izzo/Coach K/etc. mediocre before the generation before them left? New talent will always be there to create the challenge, but that doesn't come to someone just because the next best guy leaves.

[MadAboutIndiana 402]

I have zero problem if Crean turns out to not be the guy. But as you said, many ignore every single good thing he does. That's a problem. It's amazing the extent some will go to avoid the fact that he's doing well.

I just find it interesting that so many are so 100% sure that he can't do it, simply because he hasn't done it yet. He's had, what, two real chances to win it all here with this year being his third. The idea that "he couldn't do it with Zeller so he'll never do it" is what I find so infuriating. It makes our fan base look dumb.

That's a really odd way of looking at things. I don't understand the paranoia.

[WayneFleekHoosier 47,766]

I have zero problem if Crean turns out to not be the guy. But as you said, many ignore every single good thing he does. That's a problem. It's amazing the extent some will go to avoid the fact that he's doing well.

I just find it interesting that so many are so 100% sure that he can't do it, simply because he hasn't done it yet. He's had, what, two real chances to win it all here with this year being his third. The idea that "he couldn't do it with Zeller so he'll never do it" is what I find so infuriating. It makes our fan base look dumb.

That's a really odd way of looking at things. I don't understand the paranoia.

how do you explain the Vonleh season? Or last year even? He has done some very good things but that Vonleh team was a total disaster loaded with talent.

I'm looking up for now, but the MSU, Duke no-shows worry me. The confidence is building but the past two seasons (last year and year before) have quelled any amount of confidence I have. This year I'm along for the ride and so is much of the CBB media as we haven't been generally respected. The elite schools find a way to be successful virtually every season and 2 consecutive underperforming years tarnish that hope.

[Brass Cannon 24,191]

The next year will be a real test for Crean. He has a chance to prove himself in the postseason. A chance to get some elite Indiana talent and to have consecutive quality regular seasons, something he had done but he had only lost 1 starter can he do it losing 2 or 3

[MadAboutIndiana 402]

how do you explain the Vonleh season? Or last year even? He has done some very good things but that Vonleh team was a total disaster loaded with talent.

I'm looking up for now, but the MSU, Duke no-shows worry me. The confidence is building but the past two seasons (last year and year before) have quelled any amount of confidence I have. This year I'm along for the ride and so is much of the CBB media as we haven't been generally respected. The elite schools find a way to be successful virtually every season and 2 consecutive underperforming years tarnish that hope.

The elite schools didn't hit reset on their program in 2008!

It's pretty obvious what happened. We lost the 2009 class, plus Victor and Cody all at once. The ones who built the foundation. That's a monumental loss when it occurs all at one time. Our returners being Yogi, Sheehey, Etherington, and Hollowell. What talent are you talking about!?! Not exactly Anthony Davis and MKG... Our freshmen (Troy and Collin's class) did not pan out. That happens. We can scream from the mountaintop about Zak Irvin, Demetrius Jackson, or whoever. But that's revisionist history at work.

I still believe IU should have squeaked into the tourney that year, but the chemistry was a joke and they didn't. So what. I can live with that considering you can't plan for Luke leaving, Hollowell selling dope, Etherington being a bust, etc. Coaches are not fortune tellers. Alas, for the most part, Crean does a good job of seeing the future.

Ok, we got beat by Duke. We aren't even close to the same team. That game means zilch. So we had one bad half of ball the last 2 months.... So what?! That's the unrealistic bar I'm speaking to.

[WayneFleekHoosier 47,766]

Many points to respond to here. But not competing at Duke and getting blown out of the gym by MSU are worrisome as those are the types of teams where we measure success nationally.

Big games on a national stage NOT at home (neutral tournament settings and road games) have been Crean's kryptonite.

The barometer is pointing up again, but then again it was with Vic and Cody too. Not unfair to be worried about some bad upcoming seasons. Built in excuse, "well, Yogi graduated". Cut the excuses on the bad seasons and find a way to be consistent. That's all most of us ask.

[MadAboutIndiana 402]

I am not at all condoning a big dip next year! To clear that up. But in 13-14, it was easy to see coming. The program is at a different place now...

Like I said, I haven't seen it this healthy in 20 years. Have to finish this season with a run, and follow it up next year. Then IU is really close to being back.

People always say Crean is better at home as if that isn't the case for literally every single coach in history. He struggles on the road against good teams, as if he's the only coach in the country who does. It's great that we all expect so much, but hell! Enjoy this team. Feel like so many are trying to figure out if we are any good and the season is about over... Lol

[WayneFleekHoosier 47,766]

I am not at all condoning a big dip next year! To clear that up. But in 13-14, it was easy to see coming. The program is at a different place now...

Like I said, I haven't seen it this healthy in 20 years. Have to finish this season with a run, and follow it up next year. Then IU is really close to being back.

People always say Crean is better at home as if that isn't the case for literally every single coach in history. He struggles on the road against good teams, as if he's the only coach in the country who does. It's great that we all expect so much, but hell! Enjoy this team. Feel like so many are trying to figure out if we are any good and the season is about over... Lol

i can agree with much of this. I am enjoying this season. I lack any swagger because I am not sure how good we actually are. That's ok though, it's been a fun ride, hopefully becoming more fun.

The 2013-14 could/should of been good. We disagree there. Vonleh was a beast. Loads of potential. Yogi. Evan Gordon was a good player. Sheehey was a solid player. We never found an identity and the players didn't buy into the team. Also had Troy, Stan, Hanner, Hollowell. Some players were getting minutes they shouldn't have. That was the era where subs were atrocious. It was a mess, but I can't be convinced we didn't have talent.

I am in the crowd I think we will be good next year if the right things happen in the off season. Am I worried though? Of course, because of track record.