Can we all at least agree that...

[Old Friend 8,389]

I'm not a firm believer on coaches keeping their job because they hit a certain bench mark or not. To me, if benchmarks are ever brought up, something isn't right to begin with.

As for your question, to me it's a matter of how that Sweet 16 game is played. Should Indiana lose a well fought game on a buzzer beater? Well that's just march madness. It happens. Now if it's a complete destruction to a lesser quality team, that's another topic.

I think if Indiana reaches the Sweet 16 again Crean will be here the following year without a doubt. We may have underperformed in the past, but that would still be:

4/5 years in the tournament.
3/4 tourney runs in Sweet 16
Tourney record = 6-4 over the last 4 tournaments.

Looking big picture. Being in the Sweet 16 three out of the last 5 isn't horrible...

True....but shouldn't our standard be better than "not horrible?"    We also finished 8th and 7th in the Big Ten in Crean's 6th and 7th years at the helm.   By Indiana's standards, that's horrible.   Without Cody Zeller, Crean has never beaten Purdue.  That's horrible.   He has a combined losing record in the Big Ten the last 2 seasons.  That's horrible.   He had two players show up on campus this season who said they didn't know the traditions and expectations at Indiana.   That's horrible; especially given his introductory press conference.

 

I think Crean will absolutely be here in 2 years.   If he were going to be gone, this would have been the year.   Unless Indiana can hit a grand slam with another guy, there's really no reason to let him go now or even after this season beyond a complete meltdown; but it's also not about a single season in my opinion.   As I said above, it's all about consistency, and that's the sole standard by which I think he should be judged.   I know we'll be good next season.   No question.   But can he do it a second year?  And a third?   That's what it's about at this point.  He's shown he can be a flash in the pan.   Can he win every year?   If "yes," welcome Tom Crean.  Glad you're a long termer.  If not?  He has to hit the bricks in 2 years even if next season's team is terrific.   This (the question of whether or not Tom Crean should be at Indiana long term)  is now about the 2016-2017 season, in my mind.   The 2015-2016 season is going to be a good one...but that's not enough.

[IU Hoosier41 14,465]

But is it good enough for Indiana? If it is I fear we no longer should consider ourselves an elite program. Not with those expectations. We bring in the talent we should expect more.

We aren't elite. Our history is elite. It's a HUGE difference that I think my generation understands and accepts. 3/5 Sweet 16s mean you have the ability to make that run. Just a matter of doing it now.

[IU Hoosier41 14,465]

He had two players show up on campus this season who said they didn't know the traditions and expectations at Indiana. That's horrible; especially given his introductory press conference.
.

I don't think giving a history lesson on how Indiana was good 28 years ago is a solid recruiting strategy for 18 year olds. 18 year olds kids remember the last 6 seasons MAX.

[Hovadipo 53,338]

I don't think giving a history lesson on how Indiana was good 28 years ago is a solid recruiting strategy for 18 year olds. 18 year olds kids remember the last 6 seasons MAX.

Well...he isn't "Young Friend"....

[Banksyrules 4,306]

We aren't elite. Our history is elite. It's a HUGE difference that I think my generation understands and accepts. 3/5 Sweet 16s mean you have the ability to make that run. Just a matter of doing it now.

It seems that u settled and that's fine but if your generation settled then I honestly see no point for cook hall a renovated stadium and a fan base that had to be kicked out for Hoosier hysteria when we thought we were back at the top. We might as well revert to Dayton because at least it saves us money and we get the same results. Contentment is just another word that makes them happy being a punching bag. U should expect and demand more and then be content.Not the other way around.

[IU Hoosier41 14,465]

It seems that u settled and that's fine but if your generation settled then I honestly see no point for cook hall a renovated stadium and a fan base that had to be kicked out for Hoosier hysteria when we thought we were back at the top. We might as well revert to Dayton because at least it saves us money and we get the same results. Contentment is just another word that makes them happy being a punching bag. U should expect and demand more and then be content.Not the other way around.

 

My first two statements "We aren't Elite.  Our history is elite."  are facts.   Nothing about stating those facts is saying my generation is settling on anything.  I think we do understand a little better the mindset of kids coming out of school.  The fact Crean has put kids in the NBA matters 90,000,000x more than the fact that Indiana won 5 championships before their parents had even met.

 

I do think if Bob Knight were our coach right now and we went to 3/5 Sweet 16s many older generation fans would be happy...   

[Gordon Bloyer 13]

I just love "back seat coaches". They have all the answers. LOL Indiana will be fine this year thanks to the real coach. He has put together a team with great potential. We can not predict injuries like Scott May in 75 or any other unforeseen problems. If everything goes well I expect the final four. 

[Walking Boot of Doom 18,170]

It seems that u settled and that's fine but if your generation settled then I honestly see no point for cook hall a renovated stadium and a fan base that had to be kicked out for Hoosier hysteria when we thought we were back at the top. We might as well revert to Dayton because at least it saves us money and we get the same results. Contentment is just another word that makes them happy being a punching bag. U should expect and demand more and then be content.Not the other way around.

No one has settled. We just realize it's a long road back to the standard that was set 30-40 years ago.

[Banksyrules 4,306]

My first two statements "We aren't Elite. Our history is elite." are facts. Nothing about stating those facts is saying my generation is settling on anything. I think we do understand a little better the mindset of kids coming out of school. The fact Crean has put kids in the NBA matters 90,000,000x more than the fact that Indiana won 5 championships before their parents had even met.

I do think if Bob Knight were our coach right now and we went to 3/5 Sweet 16s many older generation fans would be happy...

Smh.

[MikeRoberts 6,858]

Louisville was down for a long time too and they came back and have stayed back with the right coach. There are other examples. It doesn't need to be this arduous road back and if you believe that then what do you call Crean's first 3 seasons? Crean has had long enough to even out classes and plan for the future and avoid these ups and downs. GoColts is right, this isn't about this coming year, it's about the following season that has every appearance of a train wreck that the 13/14 season was. Cannot keep going through that over and over... He has a history of this

[Old Friend 8,389]

I don't think giving a history lesson on how Indiana was good 28 years ago is a solid recruiting strategy for 18 year olds. 18 year olds kids remember the last 6 seasons MAX.

Absolutely a history lesson is important.   If you don't know what the expectations are, you're never going to meet them.   So you're either telling me the traditions don't matter and expectations have been lowered, or you're telling me that hundreds of years of human psychological study is incorrect.   I disagree with both.   Every kid walking into Assembly Hall should know absolutely and without question where he is and what's expected.

[JSHoosier 19,671]

My first two statements "We aren't Elite. Our history is elite." are facts. Nothing about stating those facts is saying my generation is settling on anything. I think we do understand a little better the mindset of kids coming out of school. The fact Crean has put kids in the NBA matters 90,000,000x more than the fact that Indiana won 5 championships before their parents had even met.

I do think if Bob Knight were our coach right now and we went to 3/5 Sweet 16s many older generation fans would be happy...

Bob Knight would also have a championship history to fall back on giving him a lot more equity and benefit of the doubt. The only thing Tom Crean has is hopes and dreams that one run over 10 years ago wasn't a fluke.

People can say we aren't elite all they want, but we will never get back there unless we hold ourselves to that standard because if you lower the bar once you will always find a reason to lower it again.

[Old Friend 8,389]

My first two statements "We aren't Elite.  Our history is elite."  are facts.   Nothing about stating those facts is saying my generation is settling on anything.  I think we do understand a little better the mindset of kids coming out of school.  The fact Crean has put kids in the NBA matters 90,000,000x more than the fact that Indiana won 5 championships before their parents had even met.

 

I do think if Bob Knight were our coach right now and we went to 3/5 Sweet 16s many older generation fans would be happy...   

This is Indiana.  Not Kentucky.   College basketball and good quality college basketball games are played by teams; not individuals.  Kentucky is the lone exception because they are selling a very different brand than everyone else.   if Crean's putting kids in the NBA truly mattered, we'd never have heard of Tim Priller, Max Hoetzel, or Jeremiah April.  We wouldn't have to recruit those kids.  The fact that Crean struggles to sign players refutes your claim that "putting kids in the NBA matters 90 million times more."   If putting kids in the NBA mattered as much as you say, we'd have tons of top prospects to choose from every year.  

 

That's not why Nick Zeisloft came here.  It's not why Jordan Hulls came here.  It's not why Cody Zeller came here.  That's not why Remy Abell came here.  Or Will Sheehey.  Or Matt Roth.  It wasn't why Victor Oladipo came here.   And putting kids in the NBA wasn't why Crean came to Indiana.    You can win championships at Indiana.   You can be part of a top college program at Indiana.   There are 347 D1 college basketball programs; which means there are 4,511 D1 basketball players in any given season.   About 42 get drafted every year when you account for foreign players.   Less than 1%.  

 

Getting kids to the next level should always be, like it is at Duke, North Carolina, Kansas, etc. a byproduct of what you do as a program; not the basis by which you recruit or what you sell to kids.   The NBA wants kids who are prepared as much as they want athletic talent.   Crean's been at Indiana 7 years and put 3 kids into the NBA.   That's not enough to sway very many kids, and his recruiting classes bear that out.   Colin Hartman has no chance at the NBA, and there weren't kids lining up to take that scholarship.   If Crean's selling Indiana as a place where kids can prep for the NBA, I know 20 big donors who'd cut off their funding tomorrow.   That's not Indiana's DNA and it's not what anyone's selling.   If Tom Crean is selling Indiana as an NBA prep school and not selling the traditions, history, expectations, and geographical significance of Indiana University, he is doing every IU fan a huge dis-service, and I don't care how old or young anybody is.   The Indy 500 had its heyday in the 1950's through the 1970's, and a huge dip in the 1990's because of "the split."   But it still sells 300,000 tickets every year and gets a very large TV rating.   Notre Dame football sold out for a long time when they were pretty bad by their standards; but I promise you the coaches sold their history and tradition.   North Carolina had a short stint where they hired the wrong coach and under-performed their "norm," and they got rid of a coach who was "one of them" very quickly because they knew without a doubt they couldn't lose their own traditions and expectations.  It's very relevant, and I think discounting it in favor of whatever modern technology or discussions about kids' parents is short-sighted.  JSHoosier said it...if we ignore our DNA and stray from expectations, we'll end up "just another school."   

[Dalton26 16,891]

I just love "back seat coaches". They have all the answers. LOL Indiana will be fine this year thanks to the real coach. He has put together a team with great potential. We can not predict injuries like Scott May in 75 or any other unforeseen problems. If everything goes well I expect the final four.

Can you not make a post without taking shots at the fan base? Your opinion is no better than anyone else's.

[Hovadipo 53,338]

The goal is NOT pro basketball...

Huh. Noted.

[IU Hoosier41 14,465]

Absolutely a history lesson is important. If you don't know what the expectations are, you're never going to meet them. So you're either telling me the traditions don't matter and expectations have been lowered, or you're telling me that hundreds of years of human psychological study is incorrect. I disagree with both. Every kid walking into Assembly Hall should know absolutely and without question where he is and what's expected.

I think they learn this once they are here on campus. I don't think high school kids care about that when getting recruiting, hence why it clearly isn't discussed.

[coonhounds 8,697]

We will never all agree on this but the vast majority will have a opinion after this season and I have confidence it will work out one way or another after the final game lol. The one thing we should all agree is that next year should be exciting and with some hard work we can win a championship with this team.

[IU Hoosier41 14,465]

This is Indiana. Not Kentucky. College basketball and good quality college basketball games are played by teams; not individuals. Kentucky is the lone exception because they are selling a very different brand than everyone else. if Crean's putting kids in the NBA truly mattered, we'd never have heard of Tim Priller, Max Hoetzel, or Jeremiah April. We wouldn't have to recruit those kids. The fact that Crean struggles to sign players refutes your claim that "putting kids in the NBA matters 90 million times more." If putting kids in the NBA mattered as much as you say, we'd have tons of top prospects to choose from every year.

That's not why Nick Zeisloft came here. It's not why Jordan Hulls came here. It's not why Cody Zeller came here. That's not why Remy Abell came here. Or Will Sheehey. Or Matt Roth. It wasn't why Victor Oladipo came here. And putting kids in the NBA wasn't why Crean came to Indiana. You can win championships at Indiana. You can be part of a top college program at Indiana. There are 347 D1 college basketball programs; which means there are 4,511 D1 basketball players in any given season. About 42 get drafted every year when you account for foreign players. Less than 1%.

Getting kids to the next level should always be, like it is at Duke, North Carolina, Kansas, etc. a byproduct of what you do as a program; not the basis by which you recruit or what you sell to kids. The NBA wants kids who are prepared as much as they want athletic talent. Crean's been at Indiana 7 years and put 3 kids into the NBA. That's not enough to sway very many kids, and his recruiting classes bear that out. Colin Hartman has no chance at the NBA, and there weren't kids lining up to take that scholarship. If Crean's selling Indiana as a place where kids can prep for the NBA, I know 20 big donors who'd cut off their funding tomorrow. That's not Indiana's DNA and it's not what anyone's selling. If Tom Crean is selling Indiana as an NBA prep school and not selling the traditions, history, expectations, and geographical significance of Indiana University, he is doing every IU fan a huge dis-service, and I don't care how old or young anybody is. The Indy 500 had its heyday in the 1950's through the 1970's, and a huge dip in the 1990's because of "the split." But it still sells 300,000 tickets every year and gets a very large TV rating. Notre Dame football sold out for a long time when they were pretty bad by their standards; but I promise you the coaches sold their history and tradition. North Carolina had a short stint where they hired the wrong coach and under-performed their "norm," and they got rid of a coach who was "one of them" very quickly because they knew without a doubt they couldn't lose their own traditions and expectations. It's very relevant, and I think discounting it in favor of whatever modern technology or discussions about kids' parents is short-sighted. JSHoosier said it...if we ignore our DNA and stray from expectations, we'll end up "just another school."

I by no means am saying it SHOULD matter more or matters more to ME. I'm saying it matters more to the high school players who goal is the NBA. (Which is damn near every college basketball player).

And Oladipo didn't come here for the tradition... He came here because of what Tom Crean did for Dwayne Wade... GET HIM TO THE NBA. VO has stated that 1,000 times.

The Indiana kids you listed are different. If you grew up in Indiana then you clearly know about Indiana basketball.

[ou812dude 3,326]

The only way Crean isn't our coach in 2016-17 is if the 15-16 team somehow implodes, which we all are pretty sure won't happen...this team is talented and probably will content for a B1G championship...

But my real concern is for Gordon...can somebody get this guy a Hovahug...dude has more anger attached to him than Neil Reeds collarbone...

[Old Friend 8,389]

The goal is NOT pro basketball...

Huh. Noted.

Not saying it shouldn't be the goal of kids, but like I said, the reality is, less than 1% of college players get drafted every year, so a coach better be selling something else, with a couple of exceptions like Calipari, whose stated goal is getting kids to the NBA.  I don't think that's a road many IU fans want to go down; but I could be very wrong.   Another reality is, in 16 years, Tom Crean has sent 6 players to the NBA that I can name (Wade, Diener, Novak, Zeller, Oladipo, and Vonleh), so if that's what he's selling kids he's doing everyone associated with IU, including the players he's recruiting a huge dis-service.