IF Yogi were to leave

[Magnanimous 4,460]

 

To your point about a player working hard on their game helping the program....Indiana is 37-29 over the last 2 seasons with Yogi, and haven't won a post season game.  How much is he really helping? 

 

This question is incomplete until you can present a picture of what IU's record would be over the last 2 seasons without him.

[HoosierD 504]

Look at the numbers. I did. Sorry if facts offend you, but they are what they are. Very similar FG%, Yogi averages a couple points a game more and assists over the career have been close. Yogi is more exciting and a better ball handler; but his production? Not as much more than Jones as you'd think. I know nobody wants to hear that, but it is what it is.

To your point about a player working hard on their game helping the program....Indiana is 37-29 over the last 2 seasons with Yogi, and haven't won a post season game. How much is he really helping? I know my comments here are unpopular and I'm sort of debating for the sport of it at this point, but take emotion out of it. Is he really "helping" or is he just the guy in the seat right now? Yogi is still 5'11." He still isn't a very good defender, and he's still a very streaky shooter with a very average career shooting %. I love the guy because he's ours; but the fact remains his numbers truly aren't that much better than Verdell Jones' were. IU went to a sweet 16 without Yogi, and they went to one the next season with him. Since then? Not much to talk about....so honestly, how much better does he make IU than any point guard would have over the last 2 seasons? And does it matter when we've had the record we've had?

Numbers lie in this case. Verdell was on some of the worst IU teams ever. Yogi hasn't been on the best these last two years, but I can guarantee you they would kill the teams Verdell was on his first 3 years.

I didn't say he made the team better. I just said a player working to become an NBA player is a good thing and is not bad for the program. If they are trying to be an NBA player then they are working on being a better player, and tightening up on any weaknesses they may have, which leads to them being a better basketball player and that helps out the team they are currently on.

[coonhounds 8,787]

The longer we go without getting rid of somebody the more I think yogi is gone. I am starting to get a bad feeling. To stay on topic if yogi leaves we go from potential contenders for a title to border line tourney team I think.

[yogisballin 2,295]

Numbers lie in this case. Verdell was on some of the worst IU teams ever. Yogi hasn't been on the best these last two years, but I can guarantee you they would kill the teams Verdell was on his first 3 years.

I didn't say he made the team better. I just said a player working to become an NBA player is a good thing and is not bad for the program. If they are trying to be an NBA player then they are working on being a better player, and tightening up on any weaknesses they may have, which leads to them being a better basketball player and that helps out the team they are currently on.

Since the assists number are popping up in your arguments. Anyone else think yogi would improve his draft stock tremendously if that assist average is in that 6-9apg and become a "true leader." That would also make Us better as a team. I'm not looking at the numbers right now but if you go back and look at the box scores on each game. The games we look the best on the offensive end as a team, Yogi has 5+ more assist in those games. Earlier I said it "might" be an addition by subtraction if he does decide to leave early. If he decides to come back, this is the type player I want to see. Maybe be a little selfish in the late in game close scores but overall be the distributor and our leader

[MikeRoberts 6,914]

The longer we go without getting rid of somebody the more I think yogi is gone. I am starting to get a bad feeling. To stay on topic if yogi leaves we go from potential contenders for a title to border line tourney team I think.

i think this is true but only because we don't have another point guard which I think is absolutely nuts. How do we only have one point guard, one which has somewhat realistic nba aspirations? Robert Johnson etc are not what we need at the 1. If we had a solid backup like Koenig was to Jackson at Wisconsin then we would be fine. We have a shooting guard as a back up

[coonhounds 8,787]

i think this is true but only because we don't have another point guard which I think is absolutely nuts. How do we only have one point guard, one which has somewhat realistic nba aspirations? Robert Johnson etc are not what we need at the 1. If we had a solid backup like Koenig was to Jackson at Wisconsin then we would be fine. We have a shooting guard as a back up

yea I think no yogi equals more turnovers less assists and one less key scoring threat. I dont think we will be ok with out him so hopefully we dont find out

[Old Friend 8,389]

Let's ignore the higher career point totals and assist totals for Yogi (13.5 ppg, 4.3 apg) vs Verdell (11.5 ppg, 3.3 apg), and simply look at their comparative efficiencies over their careers:

 

eFG%: Yogi 51.3%, VJ3 45.7%

A/TO: Yogi 1.96, VJ3 1.14

 

The difference in the calibur of these two players is pretty massive.  Not only did Yogi put up larger raw numbers, but he did it while being a far more efficient player.  Additionally, in general Yogi's numbers have improved as his career progressed (PER: 13.0, 18.9, 21.7), while VJ3s declined (PER: 18.0, 16.8, 13.2).  By almost any metric Yogi is the better player, and when you combine everything together the difference becomes magnified.  In my opinion, comparing the two and saying they are not that different is WAY off base.

Never said Jones was as good a player as Yogi.  He clearly was not.   I simply said his production was similar, and it was.   You're telling me to ignore the very point I was trying to make....their production numbers are absolutely similar.   You're arguing against a point I'm not making.   

[Old Friend 8,389]

This question is incomplete until you can present a picture of what IU's record would be over the last 2 seasons without him.

I don't know that anyone can do that, though.  It's a straw man argument.   Like I said, I'm really debating for the sport of it because I like Yogi.  I just don't happen to think his game has done much to forward Indiana as a program.   I think he's fun to watch.  I think he's got a ton of heart to go along with ability.   And I think he's inconsistent and sometimes a little too active with the ball, meaning he over dribbles and looks to create too much.   I have no idea what IU's record would have been without him, and you can't assume because I think we'd have had someone else if he weren't around.  Last season,  I think we'd have used Vonleh much differently.  I think Evan Gordon and Sheehey get 20% more shots.  Etc.  Hard to say what "would have been."   Last season, Yogi shot us into a few games and out of a couple, too.  This season?   He allowed a ton of penetration because he's not a good defender.  Does that make a difference in our favor as much as not having him offensively hurts?  I don't know.  Maybe.     Just a hard argument to make.....  Sort of like Obama saying "we'd be much worse off if I weren't around."    Just not an argument anyone can substantiate.   But like I said, I'm doing it for sport....I like Yogi and I want him to stay.

[moyemayhem 1,283]

Never said Jones was as good a player as Yogi.  He clearly was not.   I simply said his production was similar, and it was.   You're telling me to ignore the very point I was trying to make....their production numbers are absolutely similar.   You're arguing against a point I'm not making.   

 

This is what you said:  "Yogi's production is slightly better than Verdell Jones', so I'll say if he makes Indiana "better" than another point guard would have, it would only be slightly."

 

Your point was about their impact on the team, not just their production.  That's why I threw in eFG% and A/TO. Those are extremely important stats that you were deliberately ignoring and clearly have significant impacts on the performance of the team.  

 

With your same logic, if you only look at points and assists per game, you could say that Michael Carter-Williams is a better player than Tony Parker the last two years (look it up).  If you look at the "production" then perhaps Carter-Williams is the missing piece to back to back titles for the Spurs, because he would make them a slightly better team than they are with Tony Parker .  Now, I would strongly disagree with this insane assertion, but you seemed to have no problem using this same logic to make a similar conclusion with Yogi and Verdell.

 

"There are lies, damned lies, and statistics..."

[Tom White 1,435]

Let's ignore the higher career point totals and assist totals for Yogi (13.5 ppg, 4.3 apg) vs Verdell (11.5 ppg, 3.3 apg), and simply look at their comparative efficiencies over their careers:

eFG%: Yogi 51.3%, VJ3 45.7%
A/TO: Yogi 1.96, VJ3 1.14

The difference in the calibur of these two players is pretty massive. Not only did Yogi put up larger raw numbers, but he did it while being a far more efficient player. Additionally, in general Yogi's numbers have improved as his career progressed (PER: 13.0, 18.9, 21.7), while VJ3s declined (PER: 18.0, 16.8, 13.2). By almost any metric Yogi is the better player, and when you combine everything together the difference becomes magnified. In my opinion, comparing the two and saying they are not that different is WAY off base.

Honest question here. Have you got anything that compares the defensive efficiency of the two players?

To me, that is Yogi's greatest deficiency.

[Old Friend 8,389]

This is what you said:  "Yogi's production is slightly better than Verdell Jones', so I'll say if he makes Indiana "better" than another point guard would have, it would only be slightly."

 

Your point was about their impact on the team, not just their production.  That's why I threw in eFG% and A/TO. Those are extremely important stats that you were deliberately ignoring and clearly have significant impacts on the performance of the team.  

 

With your same logic, if you only look at points and assists per game, you could say that Michael Carter-Williams is a better player than Tony Parker the last two years (look it up).  If you look at the "production" then perhaps Carter-Williams is the missing piece to back to back titles for the Spurs, because he would make them a slightly better team than they are with Tony Parker .  Now, I would would stronly disagree with this insane assertion, but you seemed to have no problem using this same logic to make a similar conclusion with Yogi and Verdell.

 

"There are lies, damned lies, and statistics..."

Okay....Indiana was 17-15 and 20-14 with him, with many wins coming against weather vane teams and bad Big Ten teams.   We missed the post season one season and didn't win a post season game the next.   How much better has he truly made Indiana?   Seriously...what's the number?  With, say, Verdell Jones....what would IU's record have been?   We weren't very good....so, better than what?  Better than..."worse?"      I have zero problem making an assertion that Yogi Ferrell does not make Indiana much better than they otherwise would have been.  I think they could have gone, say 13-23 in the Big Ten instead of 15-21 over the last 2 seasons, which means Yogi made Indiana "slightly better."  Another guard would likely have been longer.  Maybe a better defender.  Who knows?  What does Yogi bring that's made Indiana better than they otherwise would have been and what does that mean?   That we wouldn't have made the post season a year ago?   We didn't anyway.   That we would have been an NIT team this season instead of a one and done in the NCAA?   Is there really a difference that any Indiana fan cares about?   I'd have rather won a few NIT games to be perfectly honest with you.

 

You're creating straw man arguments because the fact is, Indiana's not very good, and Yogi hasn't lifted Indiana up.   What I said is absolutely what I meant, and I really don't know how you can argue that if he's made Indiana better, it's only been slightly.   If you're ignoring statistics and seemingly ignoring the record, what exactly are you using to make your argument that he's made Indiana more than slightly better than they would have been without him?   

 

Rumors I'm hearing are that he's staying anyway.   And I'm glad.

[HoosierD 504]

Okay....Indiana was 17-15 and 20-14 with him, with many wins coming against weather vane teams and bad Big Ten teams. We missed the post season one season and didn't win a post season game the next. How much better has he truly made Indiana? Seriously...what's the number? With, say, Verdell Jones....what would IU's record have been? We weren't very good....so, better than what? Better than..."worse?" I have zero problem making an assertion that Yogi Ferrell does not make Indiana much better than they otherwise would have been. I think they could have gone, say 13-23 in the Big Ten instead of 15-21 over the last 2 seasons, which means Yogi made Indiana "slightly better." Another guard would likely have been longer. Maybe a better defender. Who knows? What does Yogi bring that's made Indiana better than they otherwise would have been and what does that mean? That we wouldn't have made the post season a year ago? We didn't anyway. That we would have been an NIT team this season instead of a one and done in the NCAA? Is there really a difference that any Indiana fan cares about? I'd have rather won a few NIT games to be perfectly honest with you.

You're creating straw man arguments because the fact is, Indiana's not very good, and Yogi hasn't lifted Indiana up. What I said is absolutely what I meant, and I really don't know how you can argue that if he's made Indiana better, it's only been slightly. If you're ignoring statistics and seemingly ignoring the record, what exactly are you using to make your argument that he's made Indiana more than slightly better than they would have been without him?

Rumors I'm hearing are that he's staying anyway. And I'm glad.

Why? He's not gonna make the team any better.

[moyemayhem 1,283]

Okay....Indiana was 17-15 and 20-14 with him, with many wins coming against weather vane teams and bad Big Ten teams.   We missed the post season one season and didn't win a post season game the next.   How much better has he truly made Indiana?   Seriously...what's the number?  With, say, Verdell Jones....what would IU's record have been?   We weren't very good....so, better than what?  Better than..."worse?"      I have zero problem making an assertion that Yogi Ferrell does not make Indiana much better than they otherwise would have been.  I think they could have gone, say 13-23 in the Big Ten instead of 15-21 over the last 2 seasons, which means Yogi made Indiana "slightly better."  Another guard would likely have been longer.  Maybe a better defender.  Who knows?  What does Yogi bring that's made Indiana better than they otherwise would have been and what does that mean?   That we wouldn't have made the post season a year ago?   We didn't anyway.   That we would have been an NIT team this season instead of a one and done in the NCAA?   Is there really a difference that any Indiana fan cares about?   I'd have rather won a few NIT games to be perfectly honest with you.

 

You're creating straw man arguments because the fact is, Indiana's not very good, and Yogi hasn't lifted Indiana up.   What I said is absolutely what I meant, and I really don't know how you can argue that if he's made Indiana better, it's only been slightly.   If you're ignoring statistics and seemingly ignoring the record, what exactly are you using to make your argument that he's made Indiana more than slightly better than they would have been without him?   

 

Rumors I'm hearing are that he's staying anyway.   And I'm glad.

 

I think we are both creating equally compelling straw man arguments :D.  I agree with you that at the end of the day not many IU fans really care whether we win 15 or 20 games (although Tom Crean's financial advisor might).  Either way it's an inconsequential season.  Hopefully the upcoming season is better...

[Old Friend 8,389]

I think we are both creating equally compelling straw man arguments :D.  I agree with you that at the end of the day not many IU fans really care whether we win 15 or 20 games (although Tom Crean's financial advisor might).  Either way it's an inconsequential season.  Hopefully the upcoming season is better...

:laugh:  Yeah, probably.  Like I said, I was debating for the sport of it (a really bad habit of mine) because I like Yogi, and I don't want him to leave.   We're clearly better with him than without him.     My sources tell me he's staying and this "announcement" is the product of his dad's need for attention because it's almost over locally for Yogi, and he's built a foundation, etc because of his visibility.   We'll see, but my guy should know in this case.   Enjoyed the banter!

[coonhounds 8,787]

Sounds like we need to start a thread titled if yogi and jbj were to leave?

[Str8Hoosiers 2,965]

The effective field goal percentage takes into account the added value of 3pt shots. 

 

On his assists, the increase from last year to this year, 3.9 to 4.9, can definitely be heavily attributed to the improved team shooting. But his assists per game with Watford, Zeller, Hulls, and Oladipo was 4.1 versus his 4.9 this year. That 2012-2013 team was one of the best offensive team in the country. Per KenPom, the adjusted offensive rating of the 2014-2015 team was 116.7, good for ninth in the country, versus the 2012-2013 team which was rated 117.9, good for third. Yogi increased his assists by close to an assist per game on a slightly less effective offensive team.

Sometimes stats can lie.... I love Yogi and I hope he stays... but when looking at stats from 2 differnt teams sometimes they don't tell the story.

4.1 Assists on a team when other people can create their own shots.... vs 4.9 on a team where you are the only person who can create and has a bunch of spot up shooters.... Sure 4.9 looks better but it doesn't tell the whole story...

 

Same can be said for the VJ3 vs Yogi argument... I actully like VJ3 but if he is on a team with other options his stats are not as high as they were, he contributed a lot on a bad team compared to Yogi's contributions on a better team.

[GloryDays 5,913]

 Actually VJ3's senior squad was pretty good and he was a big reason why.

Sweet 16 without him and Ky's biggest test in the tournament.

There were also plenty of scoring options on that team as well.

[Str8Hoosiers 2,965]

Disagree. His Senior team we were turing it around and were good but he wasn't getting much run by that point (I guess 24 minutes isn't bad but lowest of IU Career.)....  Career Low numbers in EVERY category for him that year.

[Old Friend 8,389]

Disagree. His Senior team we were turing it around and were good but he wasn't getting much run by that point (I guess 24 minutes isn't bad but lowest of IU Career.)....  Career Low numbers in EVERY category for him that year.

He wasn't the primary ball handler anymore....of course his numbers went down.   His mid-range game by that season was really good, and he'd cut down on the stupid turnovers, too.  He was a decent player by the time he was a senior.

[ctown2grhoosier 380]

Expect James Blackmon Jr. to remain in school, but Yogi Ferrell is leaning toward entering the NBA Draft, per multiple sources. #iubb