IU’s basketball culture is dead (and the case for why our next coach should be given 6+ seasons)

[ronzo4IU]

7 hours ago, Golfman25 said:

You can build culture overnight these days.  CDDv isn’t an over the top personality.  No rah, rah.  No catch phrases. So it’s hard to gauge what he is all about.  Thus, it’s difficult to know what his plans are.  
 

On the plus side, I suppose, we haven’t heard any portal transfers yet.  So either evaluations are taking time, or we aren’t going to see a lot of turnover.   So we could get consistency, which will help build that culture.   

I agree, and I'm not sure a lot can be gleaned by a coaches outward personality.  Mark Few or Brad Stevens comes to mind as similar demeanor to CDD and they have had huge success.  I also think we will get a good picture of where this program is headed by what happens to the roster in the next month.

[AH1971]

7 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

6-6 would have gotten him into the post season.  I mean that is really the low bar we have at this point that we have missed or barely met for like a decade now.  I don't think there is as much angst about the program if Devries really just handles Northwestern.  I think there were other head scratches in there but the difference between that 6-6 Cignetti type of season was that the team appeared to throw in the towel a bit at the end and the end involved 2 games against a pretty bad Northwestern team.

We were among the first 4 out, the bubble was extremely soft this year and we just tanked down the stretch.

That said, I am fine with giving Devries time and lowering the expectations around the program, but if we are going to do that, the amount of money that is funneled into this now low expectation team has to be adjusted to match.  Football is winning now, if we are saying we need 4 years to build a team the old way, fine, but this being in the Top 10 spend for 70+ place results has got to go.

My point was this...had Cignetti gone .500 for 4 straight year while DeVries simultaneously went .500 for 4 straight years, who stays and who goes? Cignetti gets a contract extension and is on the fast path to becoming the best coach in program history while DeVries is shown the door. The expectations for football and basketball are night and day, despite the basketball program being largely irrelevant for the last 30 years. You get 1, maybe 2 years as the basketball coach before the fanbase turns on you.  

[Pagoda]

2 minutes ago, AH1971 said:

My point was this...had Cignetti gone .500 for 4 straight year while DeVries simultaneously went .500 for 4 straight years, who stays and who goes? Cignetti gets a contract extension and is on the fast path to becoming the best coach in program history while DeVries is shown the door. The expectations for football and basketball are night and day, despite the basketball program being largely irrelevant for the last 30 years. You get 1, maybe 2 years as the basketball coach before the fanbase turns on you.  

In that case, Cig would have shown improvement and CDD would have not shown improvement.

A coach just has to show improvement to get more time.

[Five Prime]

4 minutes ago, AH1971 said:

My point was this...had Cignetti gone .500 for 4 straight year while DeVries simultaneously went .500 for 4 straight years, who stays and who goes? Cignetti gets a contract extension and is on the fast path to becoming the best coach in program history while DeVries is shown the door. The expectations for football and basketball are night and day, despite the basketball program being largely irrelevant for the last 30 years. You get 1, maybe 2 years as the basketball coach before the fanbase turns on you.  

Agree with this sentiment. The pressure and expectations for IU football pre 2024 were essentially zero. The pressure and often times unrealistic expectations for IU bball are sky high despite 20 years of mediocrity. Potential head coaches understand this well. It makes the job at IU quite risky and potentially career defining. 

[Stuhoo]

8 hours ago, Golfman25 said:

You can build culture overnight these days.  CDDv isn’t an over the top personality.  No rah, rah.  No catch phrases. So it’s hard to gauge what he is all about.  Thus, it’s difficult to know what his plans are.  
 

On the plus side, I suppose, we haven’t heard any portal transfers yet.  So either evaluations are taking time, or we aren’t going to see a lot of turnover.   So we could get consistency, which will help build that culture.   

Yes - culture can be built quickly. But building that culture does not necessarily immediately show in the won/loss column.

I am certain that Todd CreeperGolden and Danny AngryHurley started building a winning basketball culture immediately, but it took a few years for the fruits of that culture to be evident. Of course, many other coaches that weren't immediately great in the won/loss column were ... just not great.

We will have portal transfers, and we will see them as soon as the portal opens. Those portal transfers are a two-way street; they can be dissatisfied player-originated or they can be 'staff dumping bad culture players' oriented.

For me Trent Sisley is a bit of the IUBB canary in the coalmine; if he stays even after receiving minimal late season playing time I am far more optimistic about the culture that CDD is establishing.

[AH1971]

13 minutes ago, Pagoda said:

In that case, Cig would have shown improvement and CDD would have not shown improvement.

A coach just has to show improvement to get more time.

Huh?

If both coaches have the same record over the same duration of time, both have shown the same level of improvement, or lack thereof . The only difference is that basketball program has a completely different set of expectations, much of which are insane. 

[Home Jersey]

24 minutes ago, Golfman25 said:

  Just copy Cig.   

Put some respect on Curt Cignetti's name.

There's no copying him or replicating that hire.

The suggestion cannot seriously be "just copy the greatest hire in the history of college sports"

[Pagoda]

1 minute ago, AH1971 said:

Huh?

If both coaches have the same record over the same duration of time, both have shown the same level of improvement, or lack thereof . The only difference is that basketball program has a completely different set of expectations, much of which are insane. 

No.  Cig inherited a program where six wins is an improvement (previous three seasons were two, four, and three wins).  Going .500 with IUBB is not an improvement.

If Cig won on average three games for three to four seasons, he'd be fired.

If CDD can show some improvement, nothing "insane," he'll get more time.

[Home Jersey]

16 minutes ago, Five Prime said:

Agree with this sentiment. The pressure and expectations for IU football pre 2024 were essentially zero. The pressure and often times unrealistic expectations for IU bball are sky high despite 20 years of mediocrity. Potential head coaches understand this well. It makes the job at IU quite risky and potentially career defining. 

Making the field of 68 is not a very lofty expectation and that's really all the fans have asked for over the past decade with just two postseason trips to show for it. The expectations are very fair for a program that spends like we do.

We give all our coaches 4 year minimums. It's hardly a career defining risk. It's a great pay day and the last guy spent more time golfing than doing his job lol. 

[Pagoda]

21 minutes ago, Five Prime said:

Agree with this sentiment. The pressure and expectations for IU football pre 2024 were essentially zero. The pressure and often times unrealistic expectations for IU bball are sky high despite 20 years of mediocrity. Potential head coaches understand this well. It makes the job at IU quite risky and potentially career defining. 

Yea, but @WayneFleekHoosier had a great point on this.  Cig didn't succeed here because there were no expectations.  In fact, he came in and declared far and wide that expectations were now sky high and he created pressure to succeed.  "I win."  "No self-imposed limitations."  "I would never consider making a bowl game a successful season."

Any coach worried about expectations is going to be toast in the hyper competitive world of CBB.  And really, IUBB expectations aren't crazy.  We just wanted to make the field of 68 this year, is that unrealistic?

[AH1971]

5 minutes ago, Pagoda said:

No.  Cig inherited a program where six wins is an improvement (previous three seasons were two, four, and three wins).  Going .500 with IUBB is not an improvement.

If Cig won on average three games for three to four seasons, he'd be fired.

If CDD can show some improvement, nothing "insane," he'll get more time.

Going .500 is going .500. It's accepted for one program but not the other. The expectations for both programs are night and day. It's ok to admit that. 

 

[Home Jersey]

Just now, AH1971 said:

Going .500 is going .500. It's accepted for one program but not the other. The expectations for both programs are night and day. It's ok to admit that. 

Of course they are. Basketball is a 5x National champion. Football sucked until 2 years ago. It's also okay to admit context matters. Like the context that going .500 in football is significantly better than going .500 in basketball. And the only expectation for IUBB currently is "make the tournament" ... doesn't look like such a Herculean task for many coaches and programs that spend less than us.

[Pagoda]

Just now, AH1971 said:

Going .500 is going .500. It's accepted for one program but not the other. The expectations for both programs are night and day. It's ok to admit that. 

Duh.  It's about showing improvement with what the coach inherits.

And resources for the programs are night and day.  The IUFB Cig inherited was like #40-50 in roster payroll.  IUBB is ~#15.

The interesting thing is Cig came in and declared expectations for IUFB were now sky high, higher than IUBB.  Somehow that turned out to not be a problem, in fact it was part of his successful approach.

[hoopsta007]

8 hours ago, AZ Hoosier said:

Good luck with that.

It's not "really that simple". We're just another has-been program now trying to find our way back. Even with NIL and the portal, no top coach is leaving a top program to come here and save us. If we can catch lightning in a bottle again (like we did with Cig), we might get lucky with an up and comer who's willing to give it a shot - and he might get lucky and actually make some noise for us, Otherwise, we're (Scott Dolson) is gonna have to just keep plugging away to find the right guy and ride the wave for a few years to see if we got a winner.

DeVries has all the markings of a winner to me... but we'll have to see if last season was just a though deal resulting from a really rough start, or if he's just another in the string of hopefuls.

Would our program be winning now if we would have hired Calipari when he was ready to leave Kentucky?  Pitino when he was ready to live Siena?  For the right amount of money most coaches can be gotten.  The question is are we really interested in bringing in, and paying top coaches?  We’ve lost our recruiting footprint from the laziness of Woodson but one elite recruiter could fix that in a season.  And with genuine curiosity what do you see of DeVries that makes you think he is a winner?  I see it the opposite but am looking for anything optimistic.

[AH1971]

1 minute ago, Home Jersey said:

Of course they are. Basketball is a 5x National champion. Football sucked until 2 years ago. It's also okay to admit context matters. Like the context that going .500 in football is significantly better than going .500 in basketball. And the only expectation for IUBB currently is "make the tournament" ... doesn't look like such a Herculean task for many coaches and programs that spend less than us.

IU hasn't won a national title in 40 years. What happened 40,50, 60 years ago should have little to no bearing on today's climate. Current IU recruits parents were barely alive the last time IU won a national title. 

[Home Jersey]

3 minutes ago, AH1971 said:

IU hasn't won a national title in 40 years. What happened 40,50, 60 years ago should have little to no bearing on today's climate. Current IU recruits parents were barely alive the last time IU won a national title. 

The current climate calls only for making the field of 68. Nobody is demanding a national title.

[hoopsta007]

1 hour ago, AH1971 said:

“Hire a top coach”. I’m all for it, what top coach is coming to coach IU basketball? It’s not that simple, really.

With the right amount of money coaches can be bought.  Would he have to be overpaid, definitely.  But that is where fans expect the program to be. Totally invested into winning.  We are shopping the bargain aisle, overpaying the discount coach, and ignoring better options. Sad state of affairs if we can’t bring in someone who would be a top 5 B1G coach.

[Golfman25]

21 minutes ago, Home Jersey said:

Put some respect on Curt Cignetti's name.

There's no copying him or replicating that hire.

The suggestion cannot seriously be "just copy the greatest hire in the history of college sports"

Cig has certain characteristics common with all winning coaches.  Figure out what those are and find a winner.  

[Golfman25]

23 minutes ago, Pagoda said:

No.  Cig inherited a program where six wins is an improvement (previous three seasons were two, four, and three wins).  Going .500 with IUBB is not an improvement.

If Cig won on average three games for three to four seasons, he'd be fired.

If CDD can show some improvement, nothing "insane," he'll get more time.

You guys might want ask Pam Whitten what her expectations where.   Multiple years of .500 may not have done it. : )

[AH1971]

2 minutes ago, Home Jersey said:

The current climate calls only for making the field of 68. Nobody is demanding a national title.

It becomes increasingly harder to consistently make the tournament when you're constantly shuffling coaches and turning over rosters all while starting from scratch. If you haven't paid attention to that the last 20 years I beg to ask what you've been doing?

Excusing Crean's first 3 years as he started from ground zero without a roster or the transfer portal, he won two B10 titles and made the second weekend on three different occasions in essentially a 6 year period. The fan base and administration determined that wasn't enough. He was fired because he didn't win a national title. 

You're right, making the field of 68 isn't a monumental task, but appeasing a delusional fan base if it doesn't happen in years 1 or 2 becomes redundant.