Soon to RETIRE Coach Woodson Thread

[Certified Sunshine Pumper 9,646]

4 minutes ago, Juwan Moye said:

Find posts defending Woodson? Nah, they’re everywhere, you can find those pretty easily.

Not sure why you mention Archie, I don’t care about that guy. Just what people who defend Woodson think success looks like. Copping out by saying you can’t is certainly one way to answer it.

That's not what I asked. I asked you where the sunshine pumping posts were. 

It's May 16th, it's laughable to think anyone could answer that. 

[Stuhoo 83,767]

26 minutes ago, Juwan Moye said:

Find posts defending Woodson? Nah, they’re everywhere, you can find those pretty easily.

Not sure why you mention Archie, I don’t care about that guy. Just what people who defend Woodson think success looks like. Copping out by saying you can’t is certainly one way to answer it.

You went from stating a sunshine pumper thinks Woody is a "great coach" to saying that posts "defending Woodson" are everywhere.

Those are two very different things.

I think there are reasons to defend him:

• immediate tourney bids with a roster that the former coach failed with,
• player retention,
• alumni financial support,
• NBA development leading to better recruiting,
• his teams don't mail it in when they are faced with mid-season adversity
• portal success beyond any expectations; even when compared with other big-money programs.

HOWEVER, I would not and will not call him a "great coach."

[Dave from Dayton 3,476]

Looking at the players, individually.  And looking at the spots that they fill...

Point Guard:  During Woodson's time at Indiana, he has not had consistent top-notch play from the guards.  He has apparently gotten some good ones now.  Very likely it is a huge upgrade.

Shooters/Wings:  Seems to be an upgrade.  Most likely it is a good upgrade.  Absolutely thrilled with the core IU players that stayed this year.  Mgbako, Reneau, Galloway, Cupps, Newton...

Front Line:  TJD and Ware are hard acts to follow.  Ballo was the best available in the portal.  Most likely not an upgrade on offense.  Possibly an upgrade on defense.  

Offense:  Huge upgrades overall because of the abilities of the guards to get the ball into play quickly, threaten and score from outside FROM ALL POSITIONS.  Sharing and distributing the ball better and not putting so much stress on the middle will pay huge dividends.  If they can shoot and hit from outside.  And if they can improve at the line.

Defense:  Ballo is going to be a hoot.  Our guards are more mobile.  If they try then this could be it.

Coaching:  I have no idea.  Coach has not had the distributors and outside shooters to do well.  His defenses are much better than average so I am not concerned on defense if the players jell and try.  And they will.  Offense is the question.  Coach will start by shuffling the players and getting a lot of them some game-time experience preconference.  

Will they get better throughout the year?  Yes.

Will the coaching improve:  Oh my.  If the players try...then the coach will put the best on the floor.  Is the coach an X's and O's coach?  I have no idea.  I think that he is no RMK.  He is not a Sampson.  He is not a Tom Crean.  He is not an Archie Miller.  We have not really seen him with his team.  

This team is his.  He really can't fail unless the team does really stupid stuff off court, in the locker room or there are injuries.  Does Woodson take advantage of matchups?  Does Woodson improve players and teach them?  Mostly...yes.   Does Woodson have on his staff the right tacticians?  I have no idea.  But they can certainly sell certain players that IU is the right place at the right time.  It is a wonder what $6 million NIL can buy today.  I wonder about sustaining that level of NIL year in and year out.

IU will compete for the top of the Big Ten.  IU will get into the Sweet Sixteen.  After that it is who makes the shots and plays.  I just do not know about our outside shooting...and the free throws.  

Let me look into the crystal ball.  Hmmm.....     Elite 8 here we come.  Is this pumping sunshine?  Sky is blue today.

[Juwan Moye 388]

23 minutes ago, Stuhoo said:

You went from stating a sunshine pumper thinks Woody is a "great coach" to saying that posts "defending Woodson" are everywhere.

Those are two very different things.

I think there are reasons to defend him:

• immediate tourney bids with a roster that the former coach failed with,
• player retention,
• alumni financial support,
• NBA development leading to better recruiting,
• his teams don't mail it in when they are faced with mid-season adversity
• portal success beyond any expectations; even when compared with other big-money programs.

HOWEVER, I would not and will not call him a "great coach."

Fair enough, I’ll rephrase:

For the people defending Woodson, what should expectations be for the season? What is good enough where he should be our coach for the following year versus what should get him fired?

 

[IUc2016 7,121]

Don't we have a thread for next seasons expectations? Pretty sure this has been discussed a ton.

FYI - In that thread the ultimate sunshine pumper said we were going to go at least 17-3 in conference. So that is what I will go with :)

[HoosierHoopster 7,315]

4 hours ago, Loaded Chicken Sandwich said:

Archie never made the tourney. He made an NIT. No one cares about that.

No, he made the tourney the covid year, there was no question but it got cancelled with covid. 

[Henryville Hoosier 1,006]

22 minutes ago, Dave from Dayton said:

Looking at the players, individually.  And looking at the spots that they fill...

Point Guard:  During Woodson's time at Indiana, he has not had consistent top-notch play from the guards.  He has apparently gotten some good ones now.  Very likely it is a huge upgrade.

Shooters/Wings:  Seems to be an upgrade.  Most likely it is a good upgrade.  Absolutely thrilled with the core IU players that stayed this year.  Mgbako, Reneau, Galloway, Cupps, Newton...

Front Line:  TJD and Ware are hard acts to follow.  Ballo was the best available in the portal.  Most likely not an upgrade on offense.  Possibly an upgrade on defense.  

Offense:  Huge upgrades overall because of the abilities of the guards to get the ball into play quickly, threaten and score from outside FROM ALL POSITIONS.  Sharing and distributing the ball better and not putting so much stress on the middle will pay huge dividends.  If they can shoot and hit from outside.  And if they can improve at the line.

Defense:  Ballo is going to be a hoot.  Our guards are more mobile.  If they try then this could be it.

Coaching:  I have no idea.  Coach has not had the distributors and outside shooters to do well.  His defenses are much better than average so I am not concerned on defense if the players jell and try.  And they will.  Offense is the question.  Coach will start by shuffling the players and getting a lot of them some game-time experience preconference.  

Will they get better throughout the year?  Yes.

Will the coaching improve:  Oh my.  If the players try...then the coach will put the best on the floor.  Is the coach an X's and O's coach?  I have no idea.  I think that he is no RMK.  He is not a Sampson.  He is not a Tom Crean.  He is not an Archie Miller.  We have not really seen him with his team.  

This team is his.  He really can't fail unless the team does really stupid stuff off court, in the locker room or there are injuries.  Does Woodson take advantage of matchups?  Does Woodson improve players and teach them?  Mostly...yes.   Does Woodson have on his staff the right tacticians?  I have no idea.  But they can certainly sell certain players that IU is the right place at the right time.  It is a wonder what $6 million NIL can buy today.  I wonder about sustaining that level of NIL year in and year out.

IU will compete for the top of the Big Ten.  IU will get into the Sweet Sixteen.  After that it is who makes the shots and plays.  I just do not know about our outside shooting...and the free throws.  

Let me look into the crystal ball.  Hmmm.....     Elite 8 here we come.  Is this pumping sunshine?  Sky is blue today.

[Dave from Dayton 3,476]

7 minutes ago, Henryville Hoosier said:

This is how I felt every single time IU did something about the head coaching  position since last century until Archie Miller...I just didn't know if he could recruit.  And I took a wait and see about Woodson.  I still am waiting to see.  I mean last season...going into it without a sure thing PG...jeez.  And no shooter?  

[RaceToTheTop 27,271]

19 minutes ago, IUc2016 said:

Don't we have a thread for next seasons expectations? Pretty sure this has been discussed a ton.

FYI - In that thread the ultimate sunshine pumper said we were going to go at least 17-3 in conference. So that is what I will go with :)

I don't see anyone going 17-3 in the Big Ten next year.  Since the Big Ten has went to the 20 game conference schedule six years ago, 17-3 has been accomplished only one time.  Covid year aside (since teams mostly didn't play the full 20 games), the team winning the Big Ten has went 16-4, 14-6, 15-5, 15-5, and 17-3.

[IUc2016 7,121]

1 minute ago, RaceToTheTop said:

I don't see anyone going 17-3 in the Big Ten next year.  Since the Big Ten has went to the 20 game conference schedule six years ago, 17-3 has been accomplished only one time.  Covid year aside (since teams mostly didn't play the full 20 games), the team winning the Big Ten has went 16-4, 14-6, 15-5, 15-5, and 17-3.

twas a joke brother

[Stuhoo 83,767]

2 minutes ago, RaceToTheTop said:

I don't see anyone going 17-3 in the Big Ten next year.  Since the Big Ten has went to the 20 game conference schedule six years ago, 17-3 has been accomplished only one time.  Covid year aside (since teams mostly didn't play the full 20 games), the team winning the Big Ten has went 16-4, 14-6, 15-5, 15-5, and 17-3.

He did not say 17-3 was acceptable. He said at least 17-3 would be acceptable. So 18-2, 19-1, 0r 20-0 in conference would be good enough too.

;)

[woodenshoemanHoosierfan 6,356]

Fair enough, I’ll rephrase:
For the people defending Woodson, what should expectations be for the season? What is good enough where he should be our coach for the following year versus what should get him fired?
 

I am not a Woodson defender. I called for his firing last season like everyone else in this thread. Having said that, he is currently our coach, and he did "win" the off-season. No one can realistically say he didn't. Having said that, with this roster he needs to finish in top 4 of 5 the newly aligned conference, and at the very least Sweet 16 in NCAA, if not further.

I will support the whole team, including CMW, next year. If CMW doesn't achieve what I said above, I will once again call for his firing.

Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk

[Juwan Moye 388]

6 minutes ago, woodenshoemanHoosierfan said:

I am not a Woodson defender. I called for his firing last season like everyone else in this thread. Having said that, he is currently our coach, and he did "win" the off-season. No one can realistically say he didn't. Having said that, with this roster he needs to finish in top 4 of 5 the newly aligned conference, and at the very least Sweet 16 in NCAA, if not further.

I will support the whole team, including CMW, next year. If CMW doesn't achieve what I said above, I will once again call for his firing.

Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk
 

Perfect, you answered exactly what I was asking, thanks!

[Certified Sunshine Pumper 9,646]

1 minute ago, woodenshoemanHoosierfan said:

I am not a Woodson defender. I called for his firing last season like everyone else in this thread. Having said that, he is currently our coach, and he did "win" the off-season. No one can realistically say he didn't. Having said that, with this roster he needs to finish in top 4 of 5 the newly aligned conference, and at the very least Sweet 16 in NCAA, if not further.

I will support the whole team, including CMW, next year. If CMW doesn't achieve what I said above, I will once again call for his firing.

Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk
 

But this is the senseless part of trying to do this in May.... 

If we win the conference-- go let's say 15-5. Win 1 or 2 in the BTT--- get a top 3 seed.... get upset by a #14 seed in R1.... 

I would 1000000% count that as a great year. The one-game **** in March is NUTTY and anything can happen, and IMO, there is a little too much emphasis put on it. Disclaimer-- I fully understand being successful in March is what we're looking for ultimately... 

Granted-- if we go 11-9, 6-11 seed, THEN get upset in R1 of the Ncaas--- then I would say that's more of a failure, than a good season. That would for sure frustrate me. 

[Juwan Moye 388]

46 minutes ago, IUc2016 said:

Don't we have a thread for next seasons expectations? Pretty sure this has been discussed a ton.

FYI - In that thread the ultimate sunshine pumper said we were going to go at least 17-3 in conference. So that is what I will go with :)

Yeah, but my question is about what result should he get fired for? As we’re in the “Fire Mike Woodson” thread it seemed a reasonable question.

Personally I think if this team is sniffing the bubble, or we have multiple 15+ point embarrassing losses, then barring a sweet 16 or better run he should be fired. I’d consider “sniffing the bubble” as anything worse than a 7-seed.

[IUc2016 7,121]

4 minutes ago, Juwan Moye said:

Yeah, but my question is about what result should he get fired for? As we’re in the “Fire Mike Woodson” thread it seemed a reasonable question.

Personally I think if this team is sniffing the bubble, or we have multiple 15+ point embarrassing losses, then barring a sweet 16 or better run he should be fired. I’d consider “sniffing the bubble” as anything worse than a 7-seed.

Okay great, but real question... when is the last time a coach was fired after his team made the NCAA tournament? Not resigned, retired, or left for another job...but fired.

I know it has happened, just can't think of it off the top of my head in recent memory.

[Stuhoo 83,767]

4 minutes ago, Juwan Moye said:

Yeah, but my question is about what result should he get fired for? As we’re in the “Fire Mike Woodson” thread it seemed a reasonable question.

Personally I think if this team is sniffing the bubble, or we have multiple 15+ point embarrassing losses, then barring a sweet 16 or better run he should be fired. I’d consider “sniffing the bubble” as anything worse than a 7-seed.

I’m signing onto that as a very reasonable description of what would precipitate the need to move on from Mike Woodson.

[Juwan Moye 388]

4 minutes ago, IUc2016 said:

Okay great, but real question... when is the last time a coach was fired after his team made the NCAA tournament? Not resigned, retired, or left for another job...but fired.

I know it has happened, just can't think of it off the top of my head in recent memory.

Dan Monson was the first name that came to mind but I’m sure there are others.

[Certified Sunshine Pumper 9,646]

4 minutes ago, Stuhoo said:

I’m signing onto that as a very reasonable description of what would precipitate the need to move on from Mike Woodson.

sunshine pumper 

[go iu bb 7,177]

1 hour ago, HoosierHoopster said:

No, he made the tourney the covid year, there was no question but it got cancelled with covid. 

I didn't like this argument then and I don't like it now.

You can't make something that doesn't exist. There wasn't even a selection for that non-existent tournament. 

From what I remember, they were very much a bubble team entering the B1GT. They won a couple of games which people thought were enough to get them into the tournament but it wasn't a sure thing since teams like that get left out quite often.

You can say he would likely have made it but the fact remains that he made exactly 0 NCAA tournaments while at IU.