NBA Thread

[Hoosierfan2017 21,229]

And none of that is to say that I think Michael Jordan sucked. I wasn't alive to watch him live, but I've watched reruns of games online. He was phenomenal. 2nd best player of all time. I just think that LeBron is #1 if you look past the glamour of "6-0" in the finals and judge the two against each other as individuals. 

Judging individual players by team accomplishments like rings has never made much sense to me. It's also never made much sense to care about someone's "finals record". Would LeBron's resume be more impressive if he had lost in the ECF those 5 years instead of the finals? No, of course not. This year he'll drag the Cavs back to the finals but after the season all we'll hear about is how he's "3-6 in the finals." Last year he averaged 33.6/12/10 on 56.4% shooting, but it gets lost because he couldn't beat a team with the 2nd and 3rd best players in the world, a top 3 shooter of all time, and the DPOY.

Sure, Jordan never lost in the finals, but it's not like he only played in those 6 seasons he won championships. He lost in the conference finals, semifinals, and first round. Losing in one of those 3 rounds isn't better than losing in the finals, so I don't get why so much is made about their "finals records". 

[mdn82 25,510]

You don’t want to get into a debate and then post that dissertation of numbers with zero context. I guess if that’s the way it is, 3-7 vs. 6-0. Just because I say it tells a story it does.


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[Hoosierfan2017 21,229]

Just now, mdn82 said:

You don’t want to get into a debate and then post that dissertation of numbers with zero context. I guess if that’s the way it is, 3-7 vs. 6-0. Just because I say it tells a story it does.


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I'm not really sure where you got the 3-7.. I tried to put everything I had to say into one lengthy post so that way things don't drag out for several pages and clog up the thread. Well, two posts because I wanted a follow up one. Otherwise I know I'll get sucked into a debate and not be able to stop myself, lol. If you disagree with parts of my post and want to debate them then it might be best for us to just make a separate thread 

[mdn82 25,510]

Just to add to my post of where I am coming from. 1-9 without Pippen. Context. His first couple of years in the league and last. I know you never watched Jordan if that’s your argument. So how many teammates has Lebron had that put up numbers close to Pippen? Just curious... Record in elimination games. Jordan was like you said 1-9 and played a while. I think that should tell you he wasn’t in very many elimination games. Context... Romanticized? Much like your love of Lebron that nobody could be in the same planet no? They are different players. They play two completely different games. Truly dominant players in the NBA there have been only 4 or 5. Lebron is one of them. If you haven’t watched the others and try to find random stats you feel fit your narrative, by all means. Doesn’t make them relevant. I sure would hope Lebron would have scored more by now than Jordan in the playoffs. I mean Lebron has played 225 games to Jordan’s 179. Plus the whole he doesn’t win 6 if he played during his prime? Dumb. The first round series back then were best of 5 and the Bulls weren’t going to many game 7s as his elimination record shows. They weren’t just squeezing past opponents. They were blowing them out. The only guarantees I have if he played those two years are padded stats and at least 15 more games.


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[HoosierAloha 30,067]

If you gave Jordan LeBron's physical gifts I'm not sure he ever loses in the playoffs.

If you switched that I'm not sure LeBron is more than a role player.




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[mdn82 25,510]

I'm not really sure where you got the 3-7.. I tried to put everything I had to say into one lengthy post so that way things don't drag out for several pages and clog up the thread. Well, two posts because I wanted a follow up one. Otherwise I know I'll get sucked into a debate and not be able to stop myself, lol. If you disagree with parts of my post and want to debate them then it might be best for us to just make a separate thread 

Meh it’s a good debate and it’s in the NBA. My only issue is you pulled numbers to tell a story you have never seen because you didn’t watch Jordan. There is a reason some things are the way they are. Much like many of the excuses you make for Lebron were there for Jordan. If you actually watched him or the Bulls is or the NBA you would know this. You are arguing against things that would be relevant in today’s NBA but weren’t relative then if that makes sense.


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[HoosierAloha 30,067]

LeBron has also benefitted from a rather weak eastern conference for years. Congrats on so many EC championships?

This is a perfect example of LeBron and his fans. He goes and creates a "super team." They get a few championships out of it after proclaiming they'll win 1,000 titles. Another team adds a superstar to an already stacked team and they whine about it. That's... odd.

Just say it though, you think LeBron should get the benefit of every call. When he gets touched he should get the call. When he plows through a defender he should get the call. It's almost there now.


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[Hoosierfan2017 21,229]

7 minutes ago, mdn82 said:

Just to add to my post of where I am coming from. 1-9 without Pippen. Context. His first couple of years in the league and last. I know you never watched Jordan if that’s your argument. So how many teammates has Lebron had that put up numbers close to Pippen? Just curious... Record in elimination games. Jordan was like you said 1-9 and played a while. I think that should tell you he wasn’t in very many elimination games. Context... Romanticized? Much like your love of Lebron that nobody could be in the same planet no? They are different players. They play two completely different games. Truly dominant players in the NBA there have been only 4 or 5. Lebron is one of them. If you haven’t watched the others and try to find random stats you feel fit your narrative, by all means. Doesn’t make them relevant. I sure would hope Lebron would have scored more by now than Jordan in the playoffs. I mean Lebron has played 225 games to Jordan’s 179. Plus the whole he doesn’t win 6 if he played during his prime? Dumb. The first round series back then were best of 5 and the Bulls weren’t going to many game 7s as his elimination record shows. They weren’t just squeezing past opponents. They were blowing them out. The only guarantees I have if he played those two years are padded stats and at least 15 more games.


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But LeBron has the most playoff sweeps in NBA history (12), so he hasn't exactly been "squeezing past opponents" either... He also has more double digit wins than Michael Jordan, and more series wins. 

[Hoosierfan2017 21,229]

15 minutes ago, HoosierAloha said:

LeBron has also benefitted from a rather weak eastern conference for years. Congrats on so many EC championships?

This is a perfect example of LeBron and his fans. He goes and creates a "super team." They get a few championships out of it after proclaiming they'll win 1,000 titles. Another team adds a superstar to an already stacked team and they whine about it. That's... odd.

Just say it though, you think LeBron should get the benefit of every call. When he gets touched he should get the call. When he plows through a defender he should get the call. It's almost there now.


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Chris Bosh and Dwyane Wade both fell off considerably during his time in Miami. Look at their playoff numbers during the last two years. Nothing to write home about. In 2013 Chris Bosh put up 12 ppg and 7 rpg. He was a role player. Dwyane Wade put up 16/5/5 during the playoffs that year. The next year Wade put up 18/4/4. Bosh put up 15 and 6. Joel Anthony was getting 19 minutes a game during the playoffs for that "super team".

If he had a "super team", then Jordan's Bulls were whatever is beyond super team. Horace Grant and Scottie Pippen were better than Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh. It's funny how people act like LeBron is the first and only player to ever play with other hall of famers. 

[HoosierAloha 30,067]

6 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

Chris Bosh and Dwyane Wade both fell off considerably during his time in Miami. Look at their playoff numbers during the last two years. Nothing to write home about. In 2013 Chris Bosh put up 12 ppg and 7 rpg. He was a role player. Dwyane Wade put up 16/5/5 during the playoffs that year. The next year Wade put up 18/4/4. Bosh put up 15 and 6. Joel Anthony was getting 19 minutes a game during the playoffs for that "super team".

If he had a "super team", then Jordan's Bulls were whatever is beyond super team. Horace Grant and Scottie Pippen were better than Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh. It's funny how people act like LeBron is the first and only player to ever play with other hall of famers. 

Did Horace Grant or Scottie Pippen ever win a title without Jordan?  What was Wade before LeBron got there?  I guess that doesn't count though because they're not stats.  I never said he was the first to create a super team.  I don't recall others making a huge spectacle of it though either.  I mean, good on him for raising money for charity while looking like a not very thoughtful person.

I guess Jordan elevated those players around him to win more championships while LeBron put up great personal numbers but fell short in winning 1,000s of NBA championships. 

[Brass Cannon 24,620]

8 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

Chris Bosh and Dwyane Wade both fell off considerably during his time in Miami. Look at their playoff numbers during the last two years. Nothing to write home about. In 2013 Chris Bosh put up 12 ppg and 7 rpg. He was a role player. Dwyane Wade put up 16/5/5 during the playoffs that year. The next year Wade put up 18/4/4. Bosh put up 15 and 6. Joel Anthony was getting 19 minutes a game during the playoffs for that "super team".

If he had a "super team", then Jordan's Bulls were whatever is beyond super team. Horace Grant and Scottie Pippen were better than Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh. It's funny how people act like LeBron is the first and only player to ever play with other hall of famers. 

Wade and boshs numbers fell off a bit but their efficiency was still extremely high. 

Typical have to tear other players down to pretend like Lebron is all by his lonesome. 

[mdn82 25,510]

But LeBron has the most playoff sweeps in NBA history (12), so he hasn't exactly been "squeezing past opponents" either... He also has more double digit wins than Michael Jordan, and more series wins. 

How many game 7s or elimination games has he been in? He has also played in 46 more playoff games than Jordan!!! Part of that is the first round only being a 5 game series. Part of that is Jordan’s two “retirements”. Which you know that. Jordan was 114-54 or close to that. Jordan was 24-11 in the finals. I doubt Lebron comes close to that. And no they weren’t just playing shitty teams in the Finals. The only year I expected a blowout was against the Sonics. If Lebron is blowing these teams out why is his finals record the way it is? Not being a Dick, serious question. Is the East that bad that he pads those stats you referenced? Or does his team all of the sudden suck because they don’t have Scottie Pippen in the Finals? Which if we are being real, Kevin Love is Pippens equal and DWade is better than Pippen. Bosh? Nah.


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[Hoosierfan2017 21,229]

3 minutes ago, HoosierAloha said:

Did Horace Grant or Scottie Pippen ever win a title without Jordan?  What was Wade before LeBron got there?  I guess that doesn't count though because they're not stats.  I never said he was the first to create a super team.  I don't recall others making a huge spectacle of it though either.  I mean, good on him for raising money for charity while looking like a not very thoughtful person.

I guess Jordan elevated those players around him to win more championships while LeBron put up great personal numbers but fell short in winning 1,000s of NBA championships. 

Dwyane Wade won a championship in 2006, which, if you remember, many people thought was "stolen" from the Mavs by the NBA. He also had a pretty good teammate named Shaquille O'Neal that year. Wade shot more free throws in games 5 and 6 than the entire Mavs team. As much as you like to say that the NBA is the "NBE", I'm surprised that you're not all over that conspiracy. https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080911124226AA8MNiE

 

Wade then played in three more postseasons before Lebron came. He got swept in the first round in 06/07. He missed the playoffs entirely in 07/08. He went 15-67 that year. (He was hurt for part of the year, but he still played 51 games). He lost in the first round 3-4 in 08/09. He lost in the first round 1-4 in 09/10.

So, Wade won a championship without LeBron (but with Shaq) in 2006. The next four years he got bounced in the first round 3 times and won 15 games the other year. Then LeBron shows up and they go to 4 straight finals and win 2 championships. 

 

[mdn82 25,510]

Chris Bosh and Dwyane Wade both fell off considerably during his time in Miami. Look at their playoff numbers during the last two years. Nothing to write home about. In 2013 Chris Bosh put up 12 ppg and 7 rpg. He was a role player. Dwyane Wade put up 16/5/5 during the playoffs that year. The next year Wade put up 18/4/4. Bosh put up 15 and 6. Joel Anthony was getting 19 minutes a game during the playoffs for that "super team". If he had a "super team", then Jordan's Bulls were whatever is beyond super team. Horace Grant and Scottie Pippen were better than Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh. It's funny how people act like LeBron is the first and only player to ever play with other hall of famers. 

 

Horace Grant is not a hall of famer and was a 1 time All Star. Scottie Pippen averaged 16/6/5 for his career. That’s better than Wade and Bosh? So you are telling me Lebron doesn’t have that ever on his team? I know you think his role players were that good to be that good in the playoffs. They weren’t. Just in the playoffs and only in Chicago, Pippen put up 18/7/5 for his career. That’s other worldly to make Jordan a 65% winner in the playoffs for his career? Or 72% for the Finals? Again Jordan was dominant whether you want to believe it or not. If you watched him live you would know. That’s not romanticism. That’s cold hard truth.

 

 

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[Hoosierfan2017 21,229]

4 minutes ago, mdn82 said:

How many game 7s or elimination games has he been in? He has also played in 46 more playoff games than Jordan!!! Part of that is the first round only being a 5 game series. Part of that is Jordan’s two “retirements”. Which you know that. Jordan was 114-54 or close to that. Jordan was 24-11 in the finals. I doubt Lebron comes close to that. And no they weren’t just playing shitty teams in the Finals. The only year I expected a blowout was against the Sonics. If Lebron is blowing these teams out why is his finals record the way it is? Not being a Dick, serious question. Is the East that bad that he pads those stats you referenced? Or does his team all of the sudden suck because they don’t have Scottie Pippen in the Finals? Which if we are being real, Kevin Love is Pippens equal and DWade is better than Pippen. Bosh? Nah.


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Wade was better than Pippen at one point, but not once he teamed up with LeBron. Wade's peak was before LeBron joined Miami.

Pippen gets the edge, imo, because of his defense. He made 2 all-NBA first teams while playing with Jordan and 6 all-NBA defensive first  teams while playing with Jordan. Wade never made either all-NBA first team while playing with LeBron. Pippen was also much more reliable than Wade. During the Bulls' first 3 peat he played in 82, 82, and 81 regular season games. Wade was often injured. He played in 76, 49 (lockout year, team only played 66 games), 69 and 54. Love's the better offensive player vs. Pippen, but his defense is awful. Pippen is the better overall player when you take defense into account.

The only data I can find on how many elimination games he has played in is a few years old. I imagine he's played in many more than Jordan, but the number of games doesn't affect the averages. I wasn't comparing their raw stats in elimination games. Just their averages.

LeBron has played against some very tough teams in the NBA Finals. 2011 against Dallas was the only one he lost that he should have won. 

2007 - He faced San Antonio when they were at their best. He was only 22 and had one of the worst supporting casts in NBA Finals history. Just look at that roster.

2011 - He came up small and he lost. That series was on him.

2014 - Faced the Spurs again. They were simply the better team.

2015 - Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving were both injured. They win that series if they were healthy.

2017 - Golden State was unstoppable. Best team in NBA history, imo. 

I'll try to find the graphic that compares LeBron's finals competition to Jordan's. 

 

[Hoosierfan2017 21,229]

25 minutes ago, mdn82 said:

Horace Grant is not a hall of famer and was a 1 time All Star. Scottie Pippen averaged 16/6/5 for his career. That’s better than Wade and Bosh? So you are telling me Lebron doesn’t have that ever on his team? I know you think his role players were that good to be that good in the playoffs. They weren’t. Just in the playoffs and only in Chicago, Pippen put up 18/7/5 for his career. That’s other worldly to make Jordan a 65% winner in the playoffs for his career? Or 72% for the Finals? Again Jordan was dominant whether you want to believe it or not. If you watched him live you would know. That’s not romanticism. That’s cold hard truth.

 

 

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Why are you entirely ignoring the fact that Scottie Pippen was one of the best defenders in the league when Jordan had him? He made 8 straight all-NBA defensive teams. Jordan didn't have to guard the other team's best player because he had Scottie. 

You're wanting to dismiss him, but look what happened the year Scottie didn't have Jordan. In 1992-1993, with Jordan, they won 57 games. The next year, without Jordan, they won 55 games. Seems like he wasn't half bad. If Jordan didn't have a great supporting cast why did they only lose 2 fewer games without him?

[Dalton26 16,892]

36 minutes ago, mdn82 said:

Horace Grant is not a hall of famer and was a 1 time All Star. Scottie Pippen averaged 16/6/5 for his career. That’s better than Wade and Bosh? So you are telling me Lebron doesn’t have that ever on his team? I know you think his role players were that good to be that good in the playoffs. They weren’t. Just in the playoffs and only in Chicago, Pippen put up 18/7/5 for his career. That’s other worldly to make Jordan a 65% winner in the playoffs for his career? Or 72% for the Finals? Again Jordan was dominant whether you want to believe it or not. If you watched him live you would know. That’s not romanticism. That’s cold hard truth.

 

 

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Flagrant Foul on MDN.

 

Horace was my guy when I was a little kid and first started playing nba games. I always had to have him, Brian Grant, and Glen Rice on my Miami teams. lol I think it was NBA live 99 or 2000

[WayneFleekHoosier 48,228]

 

[Hoosierfan2017 21,229]

Jordan only shot 43.4% from the field over his last three finals. The Bulls were a well-oiled machine, and he was the most important part, but he still had a great supporting cast. You can't just give him all the credit for their championships without acknowledging the help he had.

[HoosierAloha 30,067]

14 minutes ago, Dalton26 said:

Flagrant Foul on MDN.

 

Horace was my guy when I was a little kid and first started playing nba games. I always had to have him, Brian Grant, and Glen Rice on my Miami teams. lol I think it was NBA live 99 or 2000

I wanted the Horace Grant goggles even though my eyesight was perfectly fine.