If we get another five star center...

[Banksyrules 4,722]

do you think Coach Crean  will adjust his offense to get him more involved?

 

I don't know why no big guy wants to commit but if we are being negatively recruited for not involving big men in our offense do you think it might force his hand?   

[harderhoosier5 37]

We are definitely better in creans system with an athletic center more like cody that also runs the floor so I think we need to make sure we recruit centers like that and it will all take care of itself


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[Banksyrules 4,722]

We are definitely better in creans system with an athletic center more like cody that also runs the floor so I think we need to make sure we recruit centers like that and it will all take care of itself


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That's a great point.  My only caveat to this is that we need kids with Cody's frame to want to be centers rather then a perimeter power forward.  I think that other teams recruit against us by saying we place players out of position on necesity. 

[TheWatShot 13,943]

I'd be more worried about Crean actually landing a 5-star post player at this point. Whatever magic touch he had in recruiting a few years ago is totally gone now. 

[ebridges24 2,429]

But with 2 centers going in the top ten in consecutive drafts, i don't get why that doesn't make a 5 star center want to come here. i posted something similar to the OP on another site and it seems last years lack of success has been the monkey wrench thrown into the mix. i don't know, kids speak so highly of Crean, but don't commit.

[Banksyrules 4,722]

But with 2 centers going in the top ten in consecutive drafts, i don't get why that doesn't make a 5 star center want to come here. i posted something similar to the OP on another site and it seems last years lack of success has been the monkey wrench thrown into the mix. i don't know, kids speak so highly of Crean, but don't commit.

I don't get it either.  It has to be something that a lot of other coaches must say that sticks in their heads.  That's what I think anyway.  

[TrueHoosier62 1,593]

Just my opinion, but the reason we aren't able to convince centers to come to IU is because our coaches and our system don't develop them in to NBA caliber players. You can make an argument that both Zeller and Vonleh could have gone to virtually any college in America and had the type of collegiate career they had at IU. Similarly you can make an argument that their games were nearly NBA ready coming out of high school, essentially making their decision to attend college at all, a concession to the need for physical development  more than anything of substance they'd receive under Crean and Co. Until Crean shows that he can develop a true center out of a virtual unknown, the way he supposedly has done with guards, we won't be seeing too many five or even four star centers beating a path to Bloomington.

[Walking Boot of Doom 18,170]

[quote name="TrueHoosier62" post="74891" timestamp="1405900505"]Just my opinion, but the reason we aren't able to convince centers to come to IU is because our coaches and our system don't develop them in to NBA caliber players. You can make an argument that both Zeller and Vonleh could have gone to virtually any college in America and had the type of collegiate career they had at IU. Similarly you can make an argument that their games were [b][i]nearly[/i][/b] NBA ready coming out of high school, essentially making their decision to attend college at all, a concession to the need for physical development more than anything of substance they'd receive under Crean and Co. Until Crean shows that he can develop a true center out of a virtual unknown, the way he supposedly has done with guards, we won't be seeing too many five or even four star centers beating a path to Bloomington.[/quote] I understand and agree with most of your argument. But my question to would be, who is developing these unknowns into NBA caliber big men? In my opinion, 5 star bigs are wanted in the NBA as soon as they leave high school. They seemingly can't help themselves that much in college. Look at Anthony Davis, Nerlens Noel, Julius Randle. How did Cal improved their position? They would have all arguably gone at the same spot in the draft without college, and probably have been just as good in the NBA. The one example I can think of is Bill Self and Embiid. But my NBA knowledge is also very limited, so my question could be an ignorant one.


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[All_Hoosiers 873]

I think the only big man Crean could realistically land work well with is a stretch four type guy or some crazy athletic center. Traditional, back to the basket guys just won't work here. Edit: Just to add on, I personally think Crean did a fine job with Noah Vonleh. In my opinion, Vonleh improved rather considerably over the season. Getting him the ball however is a different argument, and I think there was only so much Crean could do about that. Sent from my iPhone using BtownBanners

[ccgeneral 38,084]

I'd be more worried about Crean actually landing a 5-star post player at this point. Whatever magic touch he had in recruiting a few years ago is totally gone now. 

This. Actually, we should be grateful to get a 5* on campus  regardless of the position. Who was the last one?

[bronkonagurski 894]

Just my opinion, but the reason we aren't able to convince centers to come to IU is because our coaches and our system don't develop them in to NBA caliber players. You can make an argument that both Zeller and Vonleh could have gone to virtually any college in America and had the type of collegiate career they had at IU. Similarly you can make an argument that their games were nearly NBA ready coming out of high school, essentially making their decision to attend college at all, a concession to the need for physical development  more than anything of substance they'd receive under Crean and Co. Until Crean shows that he can develop a true center out of a virtual unknown, the way he supposedly has done with guards, we won't be seeing too many five or even four star centers beating a path to Bloomington.

 

Who are these coaches developing NBA lottery pick bigs from scratch?  Any specific examples?  Most lottery pick bigs are pretty much projected to be that kind of player, regardless of what school they choose.  They are just forced to play one year of college basketball based on the current rules. 

[ccgeneral 38,084]

I understand and agree with most of your argument. But my question to would be, who is developing these unknowns into NBA caliber big men? In my opinion, 5 star bigs are wanted in the NBA as soon as they leave high school. They seemingly can't help themselves that much in college. Look at Anthony Davis, Nerlens Noel, Julius Randle. How did Cal improved their position? They would have all arguably gone at the same spot in the draft without college, and probably have been just as good in the NBA. The one example I can think of is Bill Self and Embiid. But my NBA knowledge is also very limited, so my question could be an ignorant one.


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You should watch some tape from '11 when we first played UK and again in the tournament.. If you don't see any progression with AD. I don't know what to tell you. Meanwhile, Cody continues to lower his shoulder when driving to the basket, scared shitless on a jumpshot. No clue on a zone. And planted on his ass more times then I would have liked to have seen.

 

I've stated my opinion on this matter before and not one to rehash things alot. I'm out. We have alot of work to do!

[JSHoosier 20,177]

You should watch some tape from '11 when we first played UK and again in the tournament.. If you don't see any progression with AD. I don't know what to tell you. Meanwhile, Cody continues to lower his shoulder when driving to the basket, scared shitless on a jumpshot. No clue on a zone. And planted on his ass more times then I would have liked to have seen.

 

I've stated my opinion on this matter before and not one to rehash things alot. I'm out. We have alot of work to do!

Yeah, Anthony Davis definitely improved over the course of the year.  To start the year he was defense/rebounding and his only offense was a dunk, at the end of the year he was utilizing hooks and post moves.

[Dalton26 16,892]

Not only that but if you watched AD was a lot better at knowing when to go for the block and when to just stay straight up. His entire game improved that season.


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[Walking Boot of Doom 18,170]

[quote name="ccgeneral" post="74897" timestamp="1405905018"]You should watch some tape from '11 when we first played UK and again in the tournament.. If you don't see any progression with AD. I don't know what to tell you. Meanwhile, Cody continues to lower his shoulder when driving to the basket, scared shitless on a jumpshot. No clue on a zone. And planted on his ass more times then I would have liked to have seen.

I've stated my opinion on this matter before and not one to rehash things alot. I'm out. We have alot of work to do![/quote] Not saying they didn't improve. Saying they didn't improve more than they could have in the NBA instead of college, and that I don't believe that college really impacted their draft position.


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[JSHoosier 20,177]

This is just plain crazy dude. I seen Vonleh battling for position while the others chuck it from 3. To many I's in this regime. Crean needs to tweet he has as many plans come tip time that he does on the oversign. And he isn't setting the world on fire with that anymore.

Yeah, part of our problem getting bigs the ball is systemic.  We had the exact same problem 3 years running with different players, it has to be the system at least in part.

 

How much Noah improved, I'm not sure.  He improved his FT shooting, but beyond that?  In the podcast with Dakich Crean said Noah always had that outside game, so can we really credit Crean for developing that?  Of course that depends how much stock you want to put in the things he says; he also said Noah wasn't a rebounder coming in (even though it's known he was a rebounding machine) and that Elston could've played in the NBA in the same podcast.

[bronkonagurski 894]

In regard to Noah Vonleh, I believe he did expand and grow his game as the season progressed.  We simply did not get him the ball enough.  His ability to deliver from the perimeter was a pretty big change of pace from a kid who many worried could not even hit a free throw based on exhibition games. 

[All_Hoosiers 873]

Right now Vonleh can rebound and that's about it. I think he got better more on the defensive side than compared to offense last year.

I wish we would've given him the ball more, especially on the perimeter. He should've gotten a lot more shots.


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[TrueHoosier62 1,593]

To be fair, IU has never produced centers of note that went on to great careers in the NBA. In fact, I can only think of one, (Benson) and that was over forty years ago, (and he could hardly be classified as a star); everything else has been guards or forwards.

Neither Crean's system, nor his coaching are conducive to developing Centers; recruits see this first hand, and hear it repeatedly from rival recruiters. As I said earlier, until Crean lands an average player and truly develops them in to an NBA caliber Center, he'll struggle to get anyone to even visit, must less commit.

 

Vonleh not getting the ball on a consistent basis was all on Crean. There simply was no excuse for it. If it was Ferrell's job to do so and he didn't, then Crean should have sat him on the bench until the tiny receptors in his ass told the grey matter in his head to "get me the hell off here, get back in the game, and follow the damned plan"!

[Walking Boot of Doom 18,170]

I went and did some research on the college big man. Here's some reading for those interested.

I believe that this article highlights a macro trend in college basketball. IU is typically a guard heavy team, but we saw with Vonleh that he didn't want to play the post. He saw himself as a wing or even a 3 player.

ESPN: Era of the postmodern big man
http://m.espn.go.com/ncb/story?storyId=7716980&src=desktop

It's also touches on the early departure of NBA destined big men. Looking at draft recaps of PF and C in the last two drafts, here's a breakdown of the first round by age:

2013: Fr. 3, Soph. 2, Jr. 2, Sr. 1
2014: Fr. 4, Soph. 2, Jr. 0, Sr. 2

It seems as though fewer big men really benefit regarding the draft by staying. Kelly Olynyk was the only junior or senior taken in the lottery the past two drafts. This could be a recent trend as the article suggested.

This sort of refutes that claim. Here's an article about how Bo Ryan recruits big men who are willing to sit and stick around for four years and also does a good job developing them. Kaminsky is a great example of a player that probably didn't have a shot at the NBA, and is now lined up to do well in the draft next year. He was ranked #219 and the 24th center by 247 in the 2011 class.

http://collegebasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/04/04/why-is-wisconsin-basketball-so-good-at-producing-talented-big-men/

Overall, IU's situation with big men is interesting, but may not be limited to just our program.








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