Can Indiana be a consistent winner under Coach Crean?

[HoosierHoops1 5,024]

That's not the problem you're completely missing the entire point. I'm no more obsessed than any other poster on this message board. You're trying so hard to make your point that you're not really making any point at all.

You've clearly not read a bit of this thread. Typical someone that has no clue that jumps into the race late. The whole thing was that Crean had put us on top not whether or not we had a successful season. Making a sweet 16 when most expected more isn't successful regardless but that's not what we're talking about.

Also sports exist to see who wins plain and simple. If it wasn't to see who was the best we wouldn't keep score or update the standings.


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I've read every post in the thread. I guess this would be time for a: Nice try jr?

 

Do you think the cubs exist solely to win the world series?

And no season in their history has more meaning than any other?

 

 

Throughout much of the season we were at the top. When the final buzzer blew it was someone else, but we were at the top throughout much of the season and that has to count for something. Our season and Purdue's season were not the same.

 

Why is it that people totally buy in to the season after a National title UK can get bumped in first round of the NIT, after never having a sub 500 season in 25 years and that's ok. But Crean has a similar result following a strong season that ended poorly and it proves he can never be successful?

[HoosierHoops1 5,024]

Disappointing post season exits happen all the time. It leaves a bitter taste in everyones mouth, but does not change the fact that the season was a good one. Relatively speaking, it was one of the best in recent times. It was progress. Last season was a step (or 5) backwards. That is why there are a lot of people sounding the panic button. Thats why this year is crucial. If he can get us back on track then its all good and I can roll with Crean. If its another bad year, I'm all for finding a new guy because the bad trend will have become a pattern. But, where all the discussion comes from is what qualifies as a "good" year next year. 

Exactly! Unfortunately, some people on here have said an elite 8 (with a team THEY don't think will be very good) is the barometer.

[KingPG21 6,587]

So out of 300+ D1 teams only one has a great season each year? Or, out of 150+ big conference teams only one has a great season each year?

 

That's pretty harsh.

We shouldn't be operating on the same level as all those other schools. We're Indiana, we should be expecting more than Sweet Sixteens and being ranked #1 during the season. Qualifying for a great season depends on the program we are talking about, this brings into the question of where Indiana stands, but I don't want to really derail this thread with that debate

[Stuhoo 86,288]

Fair Enough.

My apologies, after so many times of people arguing points that were never made I got really annoyed. I thought you were doing the same. Shouldn't have assumed.


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No worries!

 

FWIW, I am a big fan of threads that are designed for topics like this (truth in thread title advertising, eh?)

 

Posters that are more than a little critical of CTC are some of the better posters on this board  - yes JS, I'm thinking of you too.

 

We all have different standards; if I only wanted to hear my own opinion I'd stick with the voices in my head instead of BtownBanners.  I guess my take on this is:

 

2011-12: Great season

2012-13: Great season with a bad ending

2013-14: Bad season with some really good moments. Problems are fixable.

 

2014-15: IMO, likely to be a surprisingly good season, unless our lack of depth is exposed by injuries at the 4/5 slots.

[Dalton26 17,034]

[quote name="HoosierHoops1" post="72917" timestamp="1404328206"]I've read every post in the thread. I guess this would be time for a: Nice try jr?

Do you think the cubs exist solely to win the world series?
And no season in their history has more meaning than any other?


Throughout much of the season we were at the top. When the final buzzer blew it was someone else, but we were at the top throughout much of the season and that has to count for something. Our season and Purdue's season were not the same.

Why is it that people totally buy in to the season after a National title UK can get bumped in first round of the NIT, after never having a sub 500 season in 25 years and that's ok. But Crean has a similar result following a strong season that ended poorly and it proves he can never be successful?[/quote]

Then I don't know where you came from. Maybe you ignored something or just took something differently.

I would say that's probably what their owners want. Would you be ok if the people in charge didn't think they were there to solely win the World Series? Those arent owners I would ever want to coach, play, or work for. To be honest I couldn't care less about the cubs though.

Being on top during the season is nice and dandy but it means nothing in the grand scheme of things. It did show that we have the ability to be there, but in the end did it help us be the champs? No it didn't. So to me it's the equivalent of a participation trophy. Like I said rankings are nice but inevitably have no influence on the bigger picture of hanging banners. Look at UCONN this last season. They weren't "on top" at all during the regular season but they sure did finish there. Our season and Purdue's weren't the same I agree but they also did beat us like a drum.

You said it yourself UK did it after winning a championship. I don't understand how UK fans were ok with it regardless but the National Championship gets you more leeway than making a sweet 16.

We are on complete opposite sides of the spectrum here and no matter how either of us present our sides nothing is going to change. You see things your way and I see them mine.





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[HoosierHoops1 5,024]

We shouldn't be operating on the same level as all those other schools. We're Indiana, we should be expecting more than Sweet Sixteens and being ranked #1 during the season. Qualifying for a great season depends on the program we are talking about, this brings into the question of where Indiana stands, but I don't want to really derail this thread with that debate

In general, No we shouldn't, but we haven't operated at that level in 2 decades. We had our best finish in 10 years in back to back seasons and our highest regarded team since 1994. No one liked last year. No one. But, to act like we haven't made some strides is silly.

 

We had some 4 year seniors coupled with 2 guys good enough to go to the NBA early and a McD's freshman PG and our team had a strong regular season. It was almost a no-brainer that the team would take a huge step back.

 

Perhaps the next time we're loaded, which very well could be next season, we'll have better sustained success, because our end of season player losses should be fewer.

[Dalton26 17,034]

[quote name="Stuhoo" post="72924" timestamp="1404329672"]No worries!

FWIW, I am a big fan of threads that are [i][b]designed[/b][/i] for topics like this (truth in thread title advertising, eh?)

Posters that are more than a little critical of CTC are some of the better posters on this board - yes JS, I'm thinking of you too.

We all have different standards; if I only wanted to hear my own opinion I'd stick with the voices in my head instead of BtownBanners. I guess my take on this is:

2011-12: Great season
2012-13: Great season with a bad ending
2013-14: Bad season with some really good moments. Problems are fixable.

2014-15: IMO, likely to be a surprisingly good season, unless our lack of depth is exposed by injuries at the 4/5 slots.[/quote]

I still shouldn't have said that. I get really into something's and turn into a Grade A asshole but I've got no problem in admitting I was wrong and I was in fact wrong.

I enjoy threads like this too. I don't have any problem with people that are considered "sunshine pumpers" it's just when people say I shouldn't give my opinion because it's critical but they continue to give theirs. That's not directed at you just more of an overall statement.

The day we stop having debates on IUBB is the day that we all stopped caring in my opinion. If we all agreed then there would be no point of this board. I honestly agree with your assessment. I really do think you can have a good/great season without winning it all but I don't think you can claim to be on top unless you're the champ or have recently been the champ and you're still in the hunt every season.

This next season I'm iffy on what to expect to be perfectly honest.


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[Stuhoo 86,288]

I still shouldn't have said that. I get really into something's and turn into a Grade A ******* but I've got no problem in admitting I was wrong and I was in fact wrong.

I enjoy threads like this too. I don't have any problem with people that are considered "sunshine pumpers" it's just when people say I shouldn't give my opinion because it's critical but they continue to give theirs. That's not directed at you just more of an overall statement.

The day we stop having debates on IUBB is the day that we all stopped caring in my opinion. If we all agreed then there would be no point of this board. I honestly agree with your assessment. I really do think you can have a good/great season without winning it all but I don't think you can claim to be on top unless you're the champ or have recently been the champ and you're still in the hunt every season.

This next season I'm iffy on what to expect to be perfectly honest.


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Very well said (not the stuff about you being an A******, the other three paragraphs!).

[Hovadipo 60,190]

[quote name="jurkinonthecourt" post="72912" timestamp="1404327001"]Take a deep breath, count to ten, and then watch some videos of JBJ nailing threes. You'll feel better.


Sent from my place of advanced, analytical thinking: the toilet.[/quote]

I never felt bad in the first place, but I took your advice. I feel 10 times better!


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[JSHoosier 21,784]

I've read every post in the thread. I guess this would be time for a: Nice try jr?

 

Do you think the cubs exist solely to win the world series?

And no season in their history has more meaning than any other?

 

 

Throughout much of the season we were at the top. When the final buzzer blew it was someone else, but we were at the top throughout much of the season and that has to count for something. Our season and Purdue's season were not the same.

 

Why is it that people totally buy in to the season after a National title UK can get bumped in first round of the NIT, after never having a sub 500 season in 25 years and that's ok. But Crean has a similar result following a strong season that ended poorly and it proves he can never be successful?

A #1 ranking is like a hood ornament, and nothing more.  It's pretty to look at but ultimately doesn't mean a damn thing.  You can take the roundel off a BMW and put it on a Yugo, and that shiny ornament doesn't matter because it's still a Yugo.  That's all a #1 ranking is, a shiny decoration that's pretty to look at but is ultimately meaningless.

 

I highlighted the key part of your UK argument.  They won the national title, that gets a coach a lot more leeway than a Sweet 16 appearance.  Oh, and at least they made a post season tournament, we didn't even make the NIT with 2 McDonald's AAs one of which a top 10 draft pick.  Plus Calipari has seen more success in his career than Crean has, he had more success than Crean before he ever got his blue blood gig so again he has more leeway built up.

[JSHoosier 21,784]

I can appreciate what you're saying, but too often the issues you mention as having been thrown at him were in fact conditions that his approach to coaching and recruiting helped to foster. Coaches everywhere have malcontents, inconsistent play from Freshmen, defections, etc, etc; so why should Crean be given a pass or an excuse for his inability to handle it? His two "amazing" years were only amazing in light of our recent history of utter failure. Would we have been just as excited about a trip to the sweet 16 in 1975, 1976, or 1980? Even in 1987, when we weren't expected to win it all, we would have been surprised and disappointed to have lost in the sweet 16. Nice that we got there? Yes. Amazing? No. 

To paraphrase the Peter Principle of business: "Tom Crean has reached the level of his own incompetence".

Summed up some of my thoughts.  I don't give Crean any slack for some of the issues on last years team because they are directly attributed to things he's done.  The team was young because there is no class balance, freshmen classes of 3 then 5 then 6 then 7 (and counting) which 3-4 next year there probably, because of how he's recruiting.  The team lacked shooters because of how he recruited.  I can't see giving him any passes for those, because those problems are on him because of how he recruited.

 

Now, he's the head coach so he is ultimately responsible, and should be held accountable, for everything but those issues that are commonly brought up are directly because of his recruiting.

[bronkonagurski 894]

Glad to see everyone getting along so well during the off-season!

 

So what are your plans for the 4th? Cookout? Fireworks? Lazy day by the pool? Beating dead horses?

 

Flying down to Texas for the weekend.  Yeehaw! 

[CampHoosier 3,697]

I can appreciate what you're saying, but too often the issues you mention as having been thrown at him were in fact conditions that his approach to coaching and recruiting helped to foster. Coaches everywhere have malcontents, inconsistent play from Freshmen, defections, etc, etc; so why should Crean be given a pass or an excuse for his inability to handle it? His two "amazing" years were only amazing in light of our recent history of utter failure. Would we have been just as excited about a trip to the sweet 16 in 1975, 1976, or 1980? Even in 1987, when we weren't expected to win it all, we would have been surprised and disappointed to have lost in the sweet 16. Nice that we got there? Yes. Amazing? No. 

To paraphrase the Peter Principle of business: "Tom Crean has reached the level of his own incompetence".

 

If one season beating the #1 and #2 teams in the country and going from unranked to a contender, not to mention playing UK the best game in the tourney AND an entire season ranked #1 to lose a heart breaker are reasons to pout...then I'm not sure what you need here. Crean got us a BIG Championship with players HE recruited. Was the loss to Syracuse heartbreaking? Of course. But in the tourney any team can beat any team on any night. We couldn't buy a bucket. I'm not saying any of us are "settling for a sweet 16 trip, but if you're basing his two great seasons on two losses, then why even look at the regular season at all? The last coach to have IU ranked #1 prior to Crean? Knight. Davis took Knight's team to the Final Four and then was pretty average and got run out of town. We can start over based on those two losses and rebuild yet again or we can look at what Crean has done with his players playing at the top of their game and continue onwards. I for one don't want to start all over again just because we lost two games. Because those seasons were great and we just have to trust we can get over the hump. Players play the game. That's lost on a lot of people. And those players did not show up against Syracuse. 

[Walking Boot of Doom 18,170]

[quote name="CampCrean" post="73008" timestamp="1404394040"]If one season beating the #1 and #2 teams in the country and going from unranked to a contender, not to mention playing UK the best game in the tourney AND an entire season ranked #1 to lose a heart breaker are reasons to pout...then I'm not sure what you need here. Crean got us a BIG Championship with players HE recruited. Was the loss to Syracuse heartbreaking? Of course. But in the tourney any team can beat any team on any night. We couldn't buy a bucket. I'm not saying any of us are "settling for a sweet 16 trip, but if you're basing his two great seasons on two losses, then why even look at the regular season at all? The last coach to have IU ranked #1 prior to Crean? Knight. Davis took Knight's team to the Final Four and then was pretty average and got run out of town. We can start over based on those two losses and rebuild yet again or we can look at what Crean has done with his players playing at the top of their game and continue onwards. I for one don't want to start all over again just because we lost two games. Because those seasons were great and we just have to trust we can get over the hump. Players play the game. That's lost on a lot of people. And those players did not show up against Syracuse. [/quote] Davis took "Knights team" to the National Title game. Not saying it was because of his coaching prowess, because he then followed it up with 14-15 and 15-14 seasons lol. Sent from my place of advanced, analytical thinking: the toilet.

[JSHoosier 21,784]

I wouldn't call a Sweet 16 "great".  It's pleasant, but great?  Hardly.  If that's the case an Elite 8 is outstanding and a Final Four is phenomenal and a championship is other worldly.  It's pleasant, you might get me to go so far as good even if I don't agree that it's all that impressive, but not hardly great.

 

Why do people assume it's a one year thing that have people upset that started with the debacle against Syracuse (which was a terrible game plan)?  It can be cumulative because of alarming trends we're seeing develop.  We've underachieved unarguably 2 of the last 3 seasons, I'd argue 3 of 4, that is alarming.  We've regularly seen the team fading down the stretch, we've only seen them playing their best going into March a grand total of once and that is alarming.  And Crean does not have the track record of a Tom Izzo or a Coach K or even the record a pre-UK John Calipari had so he does not and should not get the same amount of leash those coaches get.

 

Honestly, I don't think Crean's as bad a coach as he showed last season, but that's not the problem.  The problem is we're paying a top 10 salary for the Final Four coach and he's not as good of a coach as that year suggests.

[Walking Boot of Doom 18,170]

Congratulations folks! This thread has officially come full circle.


Sent from my place of advanced, analytical thinking: the toilet.

[Hovadipo 60,190]

[quote name="jurkinonthecourt" post="73029" timestamp="1404401936"]Congratulations folks! This thread has officially come full circle.


Sent from my place of advanced, analytical thinking: the toilet.[/quote]

And we're starting lap 2!


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[HoosierHoops1 5,024]

I wouldn't call a Sweet 16 "great".  It's pleasant, but great?  Hardly.  If that's the case an Elite 8 is outstanding and a Final Four is phenomenal and a championship is other worldly.  It's pleasant, you might get me to go so far as good even if I don't agree that it's all that impressive, but not hardly great.

 

Why do people assume it's a one year thing that have people upset that started with the debacle against Syracuse (which was a terrible game plan)?  It can be cumulative because of alarming trends we're seeing develop.  We've underachieved unarguably 2 of the last 3 seasons, I'd argue 3 of 4, that is alarming.  We've regularly seen the team fading down the stretch, we've only seen them playing their best going into March a grand total of once and that is alarming.  And Crean does not have the track record of a Tom Izzo or a Coach K or even the record a pre-UK John Calipari had so he does not and should not get the same amount of leash those coaches get.

 

Honestly, I don't think Crean's as bad a coach as he showed last season, but that's not the problem.  The problem is we're paying a top 10 salary for the Final Four coach and he's not as good of a coach as that year suggests.

 

I would say something sweet would be great and something elite would definitely be outstanding. The final four is certainly phenomenal as most teams have that as the spoken goal, more than a championship and all but 4 fail. Other-worldly might be a stretch, but a title cements one in time and is the best it gets.

 

I'd venture to say that when we won those 2 sweet 16 games, more than  a few people actually said "outstanding".

 

Plus, he said the seasons were great, not the sweet 16's. Although, the first sweet 16 absolutely was great, however, and the 2nd didn't make an otherwise great season, null.

[8bucks 7,104]

[quote name="HoosierHoops1" post="73041" timestamp="1404406251"]I would say something sweet would be great and something elite would definitely be outstanding. The final four is certainly phenomenal as most teams have that as the spoken goal, more than a championship and all but 4 fail. Other-worldly might be a stretch, but a title cements one in time and is the best it gets.

I'd venture to say that when we won those 2 sweet 16 games, more than a few people actually said "outstanding".

Plus, he said the seasons were great, not the sweet 16's. Although, the first sweet 16 absolutely was great, however, and the 2nd didn't make an otherwise great season, null.[/quote]

When you are the number one team in the country and finish the last month of the season very average and follow that up with an early exit you drop from great quickly. The season was a disappointment. Not because we had one bad game against Syracuse but because we lost our momentum with over a month yet to play. Sure the Big Ten title is great but that makes how we played the last month even more frustrating.

Then we have this year. Almost back to Creans early years and it is easy to wonder if sweet sixteens are the peak and these are the valleys. If so, then we can do better. If not, then we need to see evidence of that soon.

What evidence can he show? Do well down the stretch and in the tourney this year. And keep kids. And bring in a strong class in 15. That would work for starters.


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