Ben McCollum

[Old Friend 8,476]

4 hours ago, Stuhoo said:

Pitino is 14-1 in the Mountain West (the #7 conference in the country) this year. His team will likely be ranked this week.

Calhoun was over .500 at Youngstown State. That is an serious revelation for that place; not quite Dusty May level, but outstanding. 

But my point is more about McCollum. Yes; he runs some great stuff and certainly gets the max out of his players. HE IS EXCELLENT.

But

• He now has 26 games at the D1 level - that's total as a player, graduate assistant, assistant coach, head coach, video coordinator, manager; everything. That's it.
• He's currently winning with players that he already recruited years ago - brought them with him.
• He has never managed a large budget;
• Never recruited a higher-level kid.
• He has never played or coached against a ranked team;
• Never beaten a team that is top 50 in the NET.
• Never dealt with a crazed fan base or hyper-critical media; never had to guide his team through that.
• Never dealt with NIL in any real way.

Those other two guys I mentioned are just as young and have done all of that. They were also mentored by Huggins (Calhoun) and Billy Donovan and Rick Pitino (Richard) in extensive stints at P5 schools as assistants.

So McCollum is absolutely doing great. If IU hired him I'll give him my full support and hope that people in the know have identified him as inordinately special. But he sure as hell doesn't seem ready for a job the magnitude of IU to me.

Like I said.....i response to your first line; we have been down the "hire a coach who had one great season" road before with both Crean and Archie.  One season doesn't do it for me.   Sustained success does, and of the 3 coaches, McCollum's the only one who has shown it.

Over his entire career he's won 81% of his games and this season, his record of 23-3 is better than Pitino OR Calhoun.  I get the "wins v Top 50," but that's a technicality, I think.  He beat Miami , Vanderbilt (coached by a guy Curt Cignetti allegedly promoted), and Kansas State; all on neutral courts, so I don't think his lack of experience against "Top 50" teams is all that important. He's also 3-0 in OT games, which says a lot to me.

 I don't think he's the guy primarily because he has never had to recruit at this level, but of the 3, I'd take him 100 times out of 100 over Pitino and Calhoun.  And like you, I'd support him because the guy can coach.  New time and new era I understand, but Knight recruiting at Army is similar to me to McCollum recruiting at Drake.  And he turned the roster, recruited to what he does well, and is 23-3.    All he'd be doing at Indiana is doing the same thing with taller and in some cases more athletic players.

Your bullet points are all accurate, but I don't think any of them put him below Pitino or Calhoun.  If you have experience and at best one decent season to show for it, does it matter?  Good people around a great coach can mask a lot.

This conversation is about three coaches....I took a shot comparing him to Pitino and Calhoun.   I'm not trying to sell him, and like you, he would have my full support if hired because he is a GREAT basketball coach.

[Stuhoo 84,698]

4 minutes ago, Old Friend said:

Like I said.....i response to your first line; we have been down the "hire a coach who had one great season" road before with both Crean and Archie.  One season doesn't do it for me.   Sustained success does, and of the 3 coaches, McCollum's the only one who has shown it.

Over his entire career he's won 81% of his games and this season, his record of 23-3 is better than Pitino OR Calhoun.  I get the "wins v Top 50," but that's a technicality, I think.  He beat Miami , Vanderbilt (coached by a guy Curt Cignetti allegedly promoted), and Kansas State; all on neutral courts, so I don't think his lack of experience against "Top 50" teams is all that important. He's also 3-0 in OT games, which says a lot to me.

 I don't think he's the guy primarily because he has never had to recruit at this level, but of the 3, I'd take him 100 times out of 100 over Pitino and Calhoun.  And like you, I'd support him because the guy can coach.  New time and new era I understand, but Knight recruiting at Army is similar to me to McCollum recruiting at Drake.  And he turned the roster, recruited to what he does well, and is 23-3.    All he'd be doing at Indiana is doing the same thing with taller and in some cases more athletic players.

Your bullet points are all accurate, but I don't think any of them put him below Pitino or Calhoun.  If you have experience and at best one decent season to show for it, does it matter?  Good people around a great coach can mask a lot.

This conversation is about three coaches....I took a shot comparing him to Pitino and Calhoun.   I'm not trying to sell him, and like you, he would have my full support if hired because he is a GREAT basketball coach.

Completely fair points and well stated.

It's our opinions on a largely untested coach who shows signs that he could be a monster of awesomeness.

For me? For this hire I think we will have fantastic options that are much less risky, and these comparisons will be moot.

[Old Friend 8,476]

48 minutes ago, Stuhoo said:

Completely fair points and well stated.

It's our opinions on a largely untested coach who shows signs that he could be a monster of awesomeness.

For me? For this hire I think we will have fantastic options that are much less risky, and these comparisons will be moot.

I agree the points are moot...probably.   But let's say Dusty says no.  Let's say IU won't hire Beard.  (They AREN'T hiring Pearl for reasons in the same category)   Who in your opinion are the worthwhile "less risky" options?   I speak ONLY for myself here, but I have no interest in people like Buzz Williams or Mick Cronin.  They're just guys and I think we know their ceiling.  I've kinda' talked myself into Brad Brownell because he was a high school team mate of Calbert Cheaney's and I think would keep him and perhaps another IU guy.  He also understands the program.   

I don't think Nate Oats is in play and I don't think Grant McCasland's leaving Texas Tech, but I'd love him.   I don't see McDermott leaving Creighton and I'm not sure he fits.   I'm going down the list, and I don't have to go far to think McCollum might be worth the risk.   But again.....that's only my opinion and I know Scott Dolson's list is longer and broader than mine.   Hell.....he could hire Steve Alford and I think Indiana would win far bigger than they have with Woodson or Archie.    I'm just excited to care again.

[Stuhoo 84,698]

2 minutes ago, Old Friend said:

I agree the points are moot...probably.   But let's say Dusty says no.  Let's say IU won't hire Beard.  (They AREN'T hiring Pearl for reasons in the same category)   Who in your opinion are the worthwhile "less risky" options?   I speak ONLY for myself here, but I have no interest in people like Buzz Williams or Mick Cronin.  They're just guys and I think we know their ceiling.  I've kinda' talked myself into Brad Brownell because he was a high school team mate of Calbert Cheaney's and I think would keep him and perhaps another IU guy.  He also understands the program.   

I don't think Nate Oats is in play and I don't think Grant McCasland's leaving Texas Tech, but I'd love him.   I don't see McDermott leaving Creighton and I'm not sure he fits.   I'm going down the list, and I don't have to go far to think McCollum might be worth the risk.   But again.....that's only my opinion and I know Scott Dolson's list is longer and broader than mine.   Hell.....he could hire Steve Alford and I think Indiana would win far bigger than they have with Woodson or Archie.    I'm just excited to care again.

IU won’t hire Beard or 65 year old Pearl . And Oats has zero reasons to entertain IU. Also like you and most here, I much prefer younger side.

Less risky that I’d prefer to McCollum if (Stevens certainly or) May says no?

Primary preferences:

TJ Otz

Buzz

Cronin

McCasland

Byington

—————

Secondary preferences

Pitino Jr

Schertz

J Calhoun

So I guess for me, McCollum is in ninth place but has as high a ceiling as any.

[Old Friend 8,476]

2 hours ago, Stuhoo said:

IU won’t hire Beard or 65 year old Pearl . And Oats has zero reasons to entertain IU. Also like you and most here, I much prefer younger side.

Less risky that I’d prefer to McCollum if (Stevens certainly or) May says no?

Primary preferences:

TJ Otz

Buzz

Cronin

McCasland

Byington

—————

Secondary preferences

Pitino Jr

Schertz

J Calhoun

So I guess for me, McCollum is in ninth place but has as high a ceiling as any.

This is fun for me.  Bear with me....I'm just talkin'. 

Looking at this list upsets me because IU was a year late getting rid of Woodson for what i think were the wrong reasons.   Dusty took another job.  IU was late dumping Mike Davis and wouldn't hire Pitino when he would have crawled here.  IU was late dumping Crean and missed on Brad Stevens.    To me, it's time to get serious.   I understand why you listed every guy you did, and I don't think ANY of them are home runs except one....see bottom.   All others "just guys" to me.  Otzelberger and McCasland are the only two I wouldn't have to really work to love because :

I think Buzz Williams is full of sh*t.  A gas bag who uses catch phrases and platitudes like Tom Crean.  Self important and would be hard to embrace for the fan base.  To me?  No thanks.

Mick Cronin is volatile.  Hasn't won enough to be the jackass he is.  He wins in the regular season.  A whole lot of early exits from the NCAA Tournament

Byington lost to McCollum on a neutral court.  In 13 years as a head coach has never won his own conference and just 62% of his games overall.   To me?  Just a guy.

Pitino and Calhoun we discussed above.  I wouldn't think either are candidates and I think McCollum is

Now...Schertz?  He's interesting.  I haven't thought about him as much, but he fits to me.  He has experience building a program.  Granted in D2 but had 2 undefeated seasons in his conference which is REALLY hard, but started at Lincoln with a .500 team, built it and then in his final 11 seasons won 87% (!!!!!) of his games.  I don't care WHAT level you're coaching, that's impressive.  Did the same thing at Indiana State.  First team was 11-20 with someone else's players, and his last?  32-7 and won the Valley.   That shows a pattern to me.  He has local recruiting ties and relationships and he understands Indiana Basketball.    Of your list?  I'd take him over anybody on it, I think.  Maybe even above McCollum.

[Stuhoo 84,698]

4 minutes ago, Old Friend said:

This is fun for me.  Bear with me....I'm just talkin'. 

Looking at this list upsets me because IU was a year late getting rid of Woodson for what i think were the wrong reasons.   Dusty took another job.  IU was late dumping Mike Davis and wouldn't hire Pitino when he would have crawled here.  IU was late dumping Crean and missed on Brad Stevens.    To me, it's time to get serious.   I understand why you listed every guy you did, and I don't think ANY of them are home runs except one....see bottom.   All others "just guys" to me.  Otzelberger and McCasland are the only two I wouldn't have to really work to love because :

I think Buzz Williams is full of sh*t.  A gas bag who uses catch phrases and platitudes like Tom Crean.  Self important and would be hard to embrace for the fan base.  To me?  No thanks.

Mick Cronin is volatile.  Hasn't won enough to be the jackass he is.  He wins in the regular season.  A whole lot of early exits from the NCAA Tournament

Byington lost to McCollum on a neutral court.  In 13 years as a head coach has never won his own conference and just 62% of his games overall.   To me?  Just a guy.

Pitino and Calhoun we discussed above.  I wouldn't think either are candidates and I think McCollum is

Now...Schertz?  He's interesting.  I haven't thought about him as much, but he fits to me.  He has experience building a program.  Granted in D2 but had 2 undefeated seasons in his conference which is REALLY hard, but started at Lincoln with a .500 team, built it and then in his final 11 seasons won 87% (!!!!!) of his games.  I don't care WHAT level you're coaching, that's impressive.  Did the same thing at Indiana State.  First team was 11-20 with someone else's players, and his last?  32-7 and won the Valley.   That shows a pattern to me.  He has local recruiting ties and relationships and he understands Indiana Basketball.    Of your list?  I'd take him over anybody on it, I think.  Maybe even above McCollum.

Last year Schertz was being treated exactly like McCollum is this year; the next big thing. Schertz stepped up to a crap team in a higher level conference and is successful there too.

Are we really supposed to believe that he got worse over the past year? (he didn’t- he got even better)

[Old Friend 8,476]

6 minutes ago, Stuhoo said:

Last year Schertz was being treated exactly like McCollum is this year; the next big thing. Schertz stepped up to a crap team in a higher level conference and is successful there too.

Are we really supposed to believe that he got worse over the past year? (he didn’t- he got even better)

He's shown - twice - he can build a program.   I don't have ANY interest in a one season wonder. Especially someone who had that success with someone else's players.   We've traveled that miserable path.  All due respect to Mike Davis.

[Dave from Dayton 3,732]

4 hours ago, Old Friend said:

Like I said.....i response to your first line; we have been down the "hire a coach who had one great season" road before with both Crean and Archie.  One season doesn't do it for me.   Sustained success does, and of the 3 coaches, McCollum's the only one who has shown it.

Over his entire career he's won 81% of his games and this season, his record of 23-3 is better than Pitino OR Calhoun.  I get the "wins v Top 50," but that's a technicality, I think.  He beat Miami , Vanderbilt (coached by a guy Curt Cignetti allegedly promoted), and Kansas State; all on neutral courts, so I don't think his lack of experience against "Top 50" teams is all that important. He's also 3-0 in OT games, which says a lot to me.

 I don't think he's the guy primarily because he has never had to recruit at this level, but of the 3, I'd take him 100 times out of 100 over Pitino and Calhoun.  And like you, I'd support him because the guy can coach.  New time and new era I understand, but Knight recruiting at Army is similar to me to McCollum recruiting at Drake.  And he turned the roster, recruited to what he does well, and is 23-3.    All he'd be doing at Indiana is doing the same thing with taller and in some cases more athletic players.

Your bullet points are all accurate, but I don't think any of them put him below Pitino or Calhoun.  If you have experience and at best one decent season to show for it, does it matter?  Good people around a great coach can mask a lot.

This conversation is about three coaches....I took a shot comparing him to Pitino and Calhoun.   I'm not trying to sell him, and like you, he would have my full support if hired because he is a GREAT basketball coach.

Really appreciate OF and Stu discussing these coaches today.  Thank you.

Just one comment about Archie Miller.  (Sure he had to go.)  He had more than one great season at Dayton.  

Dayton Flyers (Atlantic 10 Conference) (2011–2017)
2011–12	Dayton	20–13	9–7	5th	NIT First Round
2012–13	Dayton	17–14	7–9	11th
2013–14	Dayton	26–11	10–6	T–5th	NCAA Division I Elite Eight
2014–15	Dayton	27–9	13–5	T–2nd	NCAA Division I Round of 32
2015–16	Dayton	25–8	14–4	T–1st	NCAA Division I Round of 64
2016–17	Dayton	24–8	15–3	1st	NCAA Division I Round of 64

[Stuhoo 84,698]

47 minutes ago, Dave from Dayton said:

Really appreciate OF and Stu discussing these coaches today.  Thank you.

Just one comment about Archie Miller.  (Sure he had to go.)  He had more than one great season at Dayton.  

Dayton Flyers (Atlantic 10 Conference) (2011–2017)
2011–12	Dayton	20–13	9–7	5th	NIT First Round
2012–13	Dayton	17–14	7–9	11th
2013–14	Dayton	26–11	10–6	T–5th	NCAA Division I Elite Eight
2014–15	Dayton	27–9	13–5	T–2nd	NCAA Division I Round of 32
2015–16	Dayton	25–8	14–4	T–1st	NCAA Division I Round of 64
2016–17	Dayton	24–8	15–3	1st	NCAA Division I Round of 64

Archie Miller’s resume was perfect.

His personality didn’t fit.

That’s one of the things I appreciate about Cronin; contrary to some opinions, I think he would be a really good personality fit for IU. Not afraid of anything— seen it all.

[Home Jersey 11,625]

3 minutes ago, Stuhoo said:

Archie Miller’s resume was perfect.

His personality didn’t fit.

That’s one of the things I appreciate about Cronin; contrary to some opinions, I think he would be a really good personality fit for IU. Not afraid of anything— seen it all.

I was hopeful for the Archie hire because he was a hot name and from a coaching family. Him and Sean are a different version of the Hurley brothers, we unfortunately just got probably the worst of them all (Bobby at ASU is giving Archie a run for his money though). 

Not trying to nitpick but I'd say that Archie's resume was far from perfect, maybe that's easier said now with the benefit of hindsight.

He was only a HC for 6 years before IU hired him... that's not a long enough track record for me and why I would favor someone like McCollum over a candidate with a similar resume to Archie. Not trying to diminish what Miller did at Dayton but they took a step back in his 2nd year, in his 3rd year where they went to the E8 they were 26-11, 10-6 in conference (T-5th place). Fluke run? Maybe...

His last 3 years at Dayton were good. Followed up E8 with R32 and T-2 with 27 wins. Last two years went 25-8 T-1st in conference then 24-8, 1st outright. Bounced in the first round both times. Those are very good, not great years IMO. Not so good that I'd say it's a slam dunk hire for IU and a downtrend trend that the AD should probably have recognized. Of course, he also should have identified the obvious personality misfit for a place like IU.

His years on the bench as an assistant for big time programs clearly didn't translate to leading as a HC. To your point in the characteristics thread, he hadn't really overcome much adversity yet. And for the record URI is 17-8 this year, Archie is in his 13th year as a HC... I'm glad to see him have some success, clearly still learning and getting better as a HC. 

Compare that with Dan Hurley - he was a HC for 8 years in D1 before UConn hired him but had 9 years as a HC at St. Benedicts, an elite prep school, for a total of 17 years experience as a HC before UConn hired him. It wasn't until his 22nd year as a HC that he won the first of his back to back titles.

That's also why Mick Cronin's reputed lack of success in March doesn't bother me so much. He's shown he can make a F4 and he's been a HC for 22 years. He goes dancing every year. That's a HC who can give you a shot.  

Sorry for the rant, but unpacking a bit of why D2 HC experience > P5 / D1 assistant experience for me.

Staying on topic since this is the Ben McCollum thread... this is his 16th year as a HC. It's more of a risk than I prefer to take with this hire but I would be personally excited, albeit slightly anxious. I think that would all fade away after the first 10 games or so though. Biggest question mark for him with me is ability to recruit at a high level. I'd take that bet, especially with IU's NIL.

As has been said though, this is likely all moot. 

[Hovadipo 58,913]

Heard we’re back on the Schertz Train. Choo choo mothertruckers. 

[WayneFleekHoosier 49,615]

Heard we’re back on the Schertz Train. Choo choo mothertruckers. 

Oh, heck no.


Sent from my iPad using BtownBanners mobile app

[Hovadipo 58,913]

2 minutes ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:

Oh, heck no.


Sent from my iPad using BtownBanners mobile app

It’s heck yes I’m afraid. 

[Stuhoo 84,698]

19 minutes ago, Hovadipo said:

Heard we’re back on the Schertz Train. Choo choo mothertruckers. 

I’ve got my ticket for this one.

All aboarrrrrrd!!

[Dave from Dayton 3,732]

3 hours ago, Stuhoo said:

Archie Miller’s resume was perfect.

His personality didn’t fit.

That’s one of the things I appreciate about Cronin; contrary to some opinions, I think he would be a really good personality fit for IU. Not afraid of anything— seen it all.

People mostly have no idea the splendid job that Archie Miller pulled off in Dayton.  It was after Brian Gregory left.  Archie pulled the rabbit out of the hat even in the first year.  But the Elite Eight run was lightening in a jar.  

Kind of like Bob Knight in '75 and 76.  Archie Miller only had 7 scholarship players.  Think about that.

He took the players aside when not performing at a point beginning in their conference schedule.  Asked them what did they want to accomplish.  What could they accomplish?  They each and every one bought into the effort.

They shared.  Each and every one tried to help their teammates and went after it.

Coming to Indiana, the players were...ahem...not helping each other.

That is what Archie wanted to fix.  Archie needed a point guard.  We have needed a great point guard each and every year since.  He really never did get the long and active perimeter basketball players that would try to defend the 3-point line.  

So people dissed him.  The players were not up to helping.  Neither was the administration.

The IU administration severely handicapped him.  You really do not want to know what I really think.

Still pisses me off.

No, he was not on my top tier of choices...   Here we go again.  Good luck IU.  This time, please help the coach get his players for his scheme.  And monitor to make darn sure that IU does not get blindsided with a dysfunctional coaching staff performance.  

[BA47591 454]

McCollum is a smart guy, he waited a few years to get the right job for his next step up the ladder. I think he'll be at Drake until he feels like he can be an impact p4 coach at the right opportunity. He can coach. 

[12345Brad 311]

8 hours ago, Stuhoo said:

IU won’t hire Beard or 65 year old Pearl . And Oats has zero reasons to entertain IU. Also like you and most here, I much prefer younger side.

Less risky that I’d prefer to McCollum if (Stevens certainly or) May says no?

Primary preferences:

TJ Otz

Buzz

Cronin

McCasland

Byington

—————

Secondary preferences

Pitino Jr

Schertz

J Calhoun

So I guess for me, McCollum is in ninth place but has as high a ceiling as any.

Dolson was ready to hire 64 year old Pearl.  Then QB got in the way again.   Word is that ship has completely sailed ….. but you never know.  If he wins it at Auburn this year, he may consider a new challenge - one he’s always coveted. 
 

I still think Stevens and May are plan A and B, so we’ll see if it gets past those. 

[12345Brad 311]

23 minutes ago, Dave from Dayton said:

People mostly have no idea the splendid job that Archie Miller pulled off in Dayton.  It was after Brian Gregory left.  Archie pulled the rabbit out of the hat even in the first year.  But the Elite Eight run was lightening in a jar.  

Kind of like Bob Knight in '75 and 76.  Archie Miller only had 7 scholarship players.  Think about that.

He took the players aside when not performing at a point beginning in their conference schedule.  Asked them what did they want to accomplish.  What could they accomplish?  They each and every one bought into the effort.

They shared.  Each and every one tried to help their teammates and went after it.

Coming to Indiana, the players were...ahem...not helping each other.

That is what Archie wanted to fix.  Archie needed a point guard.  We have needed a great point guard each and every year since.  He really never did get the long and active perimeter basketball players that would try to defend the 3-point line.  

So people dissed him.  The players were not up to helping.  Neither was the administration.

The IU administration severely handicapped him.  You really do not want to know what I really think.

Still pisses me off.

No, he was not on my top tier of choices...   Here we go again.  Good luck IU.  This time, please help the coach get his players for his scheme.  And monitor to make darn sure that IU does not get blindsided with a dysfunctional coaching staff performance.  

Archie was a great hire at the time. 100%.  Something ive always wondered … did he really want TJD?   As you mentioned, he came from Dayton and one year made the tourney with no kid taller than 6’6” or something.   Then he gets IU job and sort of feels the need to get Indiana kids … and here is a big man.    Archie never really ran a big man system and if you take TJD, you need to run an offense through the post.   He obviously had to recruit TJD, but if TJD was say, from the state of WI, would he have ever gone after him?

[Magnanimous 4,759]

18 minutes ago, 12345Brad said:

Archie was a great hire at the time. 100%.  Something ive always wondered … did he really want TJD?   As you mentioned, he came from Dayton and one year made the tourney with no kid taller than 6’6” or something.   Then he gets IU job and sort of feels the need to get Indiana kids … and here is a big man.    Archie never really ran a big man system and if you take TJD, you need to run an offense through the post.   He obviously had to recruit TJD, but if TJD was say, from the state of WI, would he have ever gone after him?

I think the biggest question mark was him being compelled to go after Romeo Langford, who wasn’t a fit anywhere…

[Old Friend 8,476]

6 hours ago, Dave from Dayton said:

Really appreciate OF and Stu discussing these coaches today.  Thank you.

Just one comment about Archie Miller.  (Sure he had to go.)  He had more than one great season at Dayton.  

Dayton Flyers (Atlantic 10 Conference) (2011–2017)
2011–12	Dayton	20–13	9–7	5th	NIT First Round
2012–13	Dayton	17–14	7–9	11th
2013–14	Dayton	26–11	10–6	T–5th	NCAA Division I Elite Eight
2014–15	Dayton	27–9	13–5	T–2nd	NCAA Division I Round of 32
2015–16	Dayton	25–8	14–4	T–1st	NCAA Division I Round of 64
2016–17	Dayton	24–8	15–3	1st	NCAA Division I Round of 64

I stand corrected.  I thought he only won the A-10 once