Fire Coach Woodson + Assessment of Former Posters

[Chris007 42,360]

5 minutes ago, IUc2016 said:

I mean, I think it depends on the "shooter" It is just my opinion but...

I would personally rather have guards/wings who can score at all three levels and a 5 as the priority over everyone else. Once those are filled, then you add a guy who can stretch the floor as his role.

Just looking at the National Championship game, Loyer and Karaban were the best shooters on the floor. They had little to no impact in that game. Did they help their teams get there? of course. But it was the dynamic guards and dominant post players that made them so good.

This is just me personally but if we wanted to keep the current players we did, then I would have gone out and got Conwell and the kid from Evansville first thing. You have your dominant post player in Reneau, then he is surrounded by guys who can shoot the 3 and get to the basket. The offense would have been much more smooth and fluid

[Stuhoo 76,008]

18 hours ago, AZ Hoosier said:

I wish I could like this way more than one time. THIS IS SPOT ON. Woodson is all show and no go, as they say.

He's definitely not a team player if the stories are true - not interacting with other sports programs, refusing to talk to other teams when the coaches ask him to, his distain for Teri Moren and the women's program ... and those stories came from a source that I trust implicitly.

There are no flawless players. There are players that are great fits and good for the style of play for your team. 

So, we appear to be rolling the dice that the flaws of three excellent college players, Rice, Ballo, and (likely) Carlyle will be overcome by their positive attributes:

• For Carlyle and Ballo especially, the upside is defense, motor, and quickness for their size.
• For Rice, it's leadership and quickness.
• For Rice and Carlyle, it's shot making. Damn, we needed some shot makers - guys who don't need to be wide open or be the beneficiary of a good offensive action to create offense. Last year only Reneau really brought that.
• For all three, they have proven P5 success.
• For Rice and Ballo, an upside is 2 PT fg percentage.

• Downside? For all three, it's 3 point percentage (somewhat less so for Carlyle). Only Ballo is a crappy FT shooter.

We are rolling with them while taking on the risk that Rice and Carlyle's three point percentage may or may not improve. Seems to me like a reasonable risk to take on.

[IH8PU 218]

1 minute ago, Chris007 said:

This is just me personally but if we wanted to keep the current players we did, then I would have gone out and got Conwell and the kid from Evansville first thing. You have your dominant post player in Reneau, then he is surrounded by guys who can shoot the 3 and get to the basket. The offense would have been much more smooth and fluid

For some reason I can't wrap my brain around Reneau playing center full time. He definitely won't now that Baso is signed. Strange there wasn't more news/words/texts on Conwell and IU and the kid from Eville would rather be a pro somewhere. I think IU has the pieces to play 4 out 1 in, even with Baso and Reneau but I doubt that Woodson does that too much.

[IUc2016 7,064]

3 minutes ago, Chris007 said:

This is just me personally but if we wanted to keep the current players we did, then I would have gone out and got Conwell and the kid from Evansville first thing. You have your dominant post player in Reneau, then he is surrounded by guys who can shoot the 3 and get to the basket. The offense would have been much more smooth and fluid

I have been vocal as well that Conwell was my first choice because he is a "shooter" but more than that. So I agree there. 

I do think the delayed timing of Conwell entering the portal has hurt our chances. I can't fault the staff for looking elsewhere rather than be left holding the bag, literally.

Reneau as the main option at the 5 scares me. Not a rebounder, not a shot blocker, and a fouler. Not a good combo. But he is a machine otherwise.

[IH8PU 218]

5 minutes ago, Stuhoo said:

There are no flawless players. There are players that are great fits and good for the style of play for your team. 

So, we appear to be rolling the dice that the flaws of three excellent college players, Rice, Ballo, and (likely) Carlyle will be overcome by their positive attributes:

• For Carlyle and Ballo especially, the upside is defense, motor, and quickness for their size.
• For Rice, it's leadership and quickness.
• For Rice and Carlyle, it's shot making. Damn, we needed some shot makers - guys who don't need to be wide open or be the beneficiary of a good offensive action to create offense. Last year only Reneau really brought that.
• For all three, they have proven P5 success.
• For Rice and Ballo, an upside is 2 PT fg percentage.

• Downside? For all three, it's 3 point percentage (somewhat less so for Carlyle). Only Ballo is a crappy FT shooter.

We are rolling with them while taking on the risk that Rice and Carlyle's three point percentage may or may not improve. Seems to me like a reasonable risk to take on.

And .... if not them, then who should have been signed, is a question I ask people. I like all 3. I think Rice and Carlyle is better than Gallo and a healthy turnover machine XJ. Don't overlook the fact that Rice and Carlyle were All-Pac12 and one FOY. 

[Stuhoo 76,008]

2 minutes ago, IH8PU said:

And .... if not them, then who should have been signed, is a question I ask people. I like all 3. I think Rice and Carlyle is better than Gallo and a healthy turnover machine XJ. Don't overlook the fact that Rice and Carlyle were All-Pac12 and one FOY. 

I think that @Chris007 presented the alternate approach; push hard for Humrichous and Conwell first and foremost. But we desperately needed shot makers too, and both Rice and Carlyle project as P5 shot makers far more than Conwell or Humrichous. 

That, and it seems as though Rice and Carlyle expressed immediate high interest in being "the bird in the IU hand."

[Home Jersey 5,412]

8 minutes ago, Chris007 said:

This is just me personally but if we wanted to keep the current players we did, then I would have gone out and got Conwell and the kid from Evansville first thing. You have your dominant post player in Reneau, then he is surrounded by guys who can shoot the 3 and get to the basket. The offense would have been much more smooth and fluid

It's interesting. On one hand, I see the vision for what you're describing and really like it. I don't know the Evansville guy well enough to say how good he is on D or rebounding, but IMO that is what we need to prioritize when pairing a big with Malik. I think (hope?) Malik grows into a true stretch 4 role on offense this year, in which case, I like the approach of having Ballo as the dominant big cleaning up things inside. On the defensive side... when Ballo sits this year, do we slide MR over to the 5? How long can that last? Can the Evansville kid/Elijah Malone play the 5 on D and rebound well for a couple of segments each game? 

Who we get as a 3rd guard/shooter and the back up big to round things out IMO makes a pretty huge difference for next year... what does the bench look like - Gallo is a good start to it. With Conwell likely looking for a bigger role than we can give, not sure who the next best option becomes... I'm not particularly moved by Essegian but realistically doubt you can get someone much better than a former B10 freshman all conference, even though he did end up out of the rotation at Wisconsin..... Watching curiously! 

[Chris007 42,360]

5 minutes ago, IUc2016 said:

I have been vocal as well that Conwell was my first choice because he is a "shooter" but more than that. So I agree there. 

I do think the delayed timing of Conwell entering the portal has hurt our chances. I can't fault the staff for looking elsewhere rather than be left holding the bag, literally.

Reneau as the main option at the 5 scares me. Not a rebounder, not a shot blocker, and a fouler. Not a good combo. But he is a machine otherwise.

I understand the concerns with Reneau playing the 5 but their going to be concerns with any lineup. Just like now that it's still clogged and no shooters. 

But I know we are rolling with these guys and I hope we win it all. But just don't feel like we fixed anything from last season other than upgrading talent. 

[IH8PU 218]

@Chris007 Upgrading talent may make all the difference in the world, if they only had some coaching. Yet on the other side of that statement that I can't figure out. I complain about coaching then two back to back B1G FOY's, two center's in a row getting NBA drafted ... some coaching has to be going on for that to happen. 

Woodson said from day one ... he would recruit talent and even recruit over people for the best talent. The problem with that is, as we all know .... sometimes all that talent doesn't fit the team puzzle for success. 

If we could just hit shots, defend the 3, hit foul shots, and leave the lane open .... who knows what would happen.

[steubenhoosier 542]

I agree that we need another shooter or two. One might already be on the roster.

Two years ago, TG had excellent shooting statistics. Last year, he fell off considerably.

I have to think that with the addition of Rice and hopefully Carlyle, the onus on Troy will lessen considerably. Not having to be the primary ballhandler and not having to guard the opposing teams' best player might do wonders in keeping Troy fresher. Not playing as many minutes will help keep him from wearing down.

I don't know that he will return to the shooting numbers from two years ago, but I feel confident he will shoot better than las year.

[Chris007 42,360]

6 minutes ago, Home Jersey said:

It's interesting. On one hand, I see the vision for what you're describing and really like it. I don't know the Evansville guy well enough to say how good he is on D or rebounding, but IMO that is what we need to prioritize when pairing a big with Malik. I think (hope?) Malik grows into a true stretch 4 role on offense this year, in which case, I like the approach of having Ballo as the dominant big cleaning up things inside. On the defensive side... when Ballo sits this year, do we slide MR over to the 5? How long can that last? Can the Evansville kid/Elijah Malone play the 5 on D and rebound well for a couple of segments each game? 

Who we get as a 3rd guard/shooter and the back up big to round things out IMO makes a pretty huge difference for next year... what does the bench look like - Gallo is a good start to it. With Conwell likely looking for a bigger role than we can give, not sure who the next best option becomes... I'm not particularly moved by Essegian but realistically doubt you can get someone much better than a former B10 freshman all conference, even though he did end up out of the rotation at Wisconsin..... Watching curiously! 

It seems we're asking or trying to get Malik to do things that are not really in his wheelhouse. He's not a stretch 4. We're heck-bent on fitting the square peg in that round hole. Just my opinion. Just seems like we try to get talent but never figure out how to put the puzzle pieces together. 

[IH8PU 218]

2 minutes ago, Chris007 said:

It seems we're asking or trying to get Malik to do things that are not really in his wheelhouse. He's not a stretch 4. We're heck-bent on fitting the square peg in that round hole. Just my opinion. Just seems like we try to get talent but never figure out how to put the puzzle pieces together. 

so what is the answer for Malik? Want to play 4 out 1 in ... he just can't be a full time 5 IMO.

[Chris007 42,360]

1 minute ago, steubenhoosier said:

I agree that we need another shooter or two. One might already be on the roster.

Two years ago, TG had excellent shooting statistics. Last year, he fell off considerably.

I have to think that with the addition of Rice and hopefully Carlyle, the onus on Troy will lessen considerably. Not having to be the primary ballhandler and not having to guard the opposing teams' best player might do wonders in keeping Troy fresher. Not playing as many minutes will help keep him from wearing down.

I don't know that he will return to the shooting numbers from two years ago, but I feel confident he will shoot better than las year.

You make some good points about taking some load off of Trey. Hopefully that helps. Hopefully, he can get back to working out this summer. Saw him & Leal yesterday and he's still on crutches. 

[Home Jersey 5,412]

1 minute ago, Chris007 said:

It seems we're asking or trying to get Malik to do things that are not really in his wheelhouse. He's not a stretch 4. We're heck-bent on fitting the square peg in that round hole. Just my opinion. Just seems like we try to get talent but never figure out how to put the puzzle pieces together. 

It's a fair point. Yes getting as much talent as possible is good but making sure they're playing the right roles and fit well together is arguably the bigger part of what makes a successful CBB team. The devil is in the detail... ultimately every year, every team usually has question marks re: players that they're asking to play a bigger role or develop a different part of their game than they've shown before. I think it's rarer than not, to have a roster where you think you've got everything a team could possibly need accounted for already. IMO you're almost always heading into a season with a few ?s that you're basically betting on player(s) to step up. Minimizing that uncertainty (where possible) with proven college players is the best case scenario... That said, I am fairly comfortable betting on Malik to step up and do what the team needs (+ what he needs to be a pro player some day). 

Since this is the right thread for such a comment... last year we were betting big on Gunn and Banks to be solid rotation players. That bit us in a pretty major way... We can't make that mistake again (relying on players to do more than they're able to, not having a competent backcourt at all, lacking depth, etc.). Upgrading the talent of our starting 5 is a good start - maybe even great - but we still need to land a few pieces for a quality bench. Then we need to actually put it together on the court.

We won't have time for another slow start to the season this upcoming year. I look forward to a delicious serving of crow. 

[Chris007 42,360]

9 minutes ago, IH8PU said:

so what is the answer for Malik? Want to play 4 out 1 in ... he just can't be a full time 5 IMO.

I don't know they answer since we wanted to keep him. It just makes it hard to construct the roster. He's dominant on the inside, just struggles everywhere else

[Hovadipo 53,016]

9 minutes ago, Chris007 said:

Saw him & Leal yesterday

*chris sees leal walking around campus*

[AZ Hoosier 6,053]

7 minutes ago, Chris007 said:

You make some good points about taking some load off of Trey. Hopefully that helps. Hopefully, he can get back to working out this summer. Saw him & Leal yesterday and he's still on crutches. 

It was a meniscus tear, right? Rehab is typically 4-6 weeks of PT after surgery. To still be on crutches raises a bit of concern.

[Hornsby 1,616]

That's why my first get in the offseason would have been a shooter. We have to start having an offense that gets up 20-25 threes a game. 

Doesn't appear it will happen though but some guys on twitter claim we will have the best backcourt in america and a top 15 team.

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[Home Jersey 5,412]

Just now, Hornsby said:

Doesn't appear it will happen though but some guys on twitter claim we will have the best backcourt in america and a top 15 team.
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I'm happy we're landing talented players too. But that was exactly what we were led to believe before last season and we saw how that turned out... I think most sane people are taking the offseason with a grain of salt and waiting til we see it with our own eyes...

[Hornsby 1,616]

This is just me personally but if we wanted to keep the current players we did, then I would have gone out and got Conwell and the kid from Evansville first thing. You have your dominant post player in Reneau, then he is surrounded by guys who can shoot the 3 and get to the basket. The offense would have been much more smooth and fluid

It seems to me they paid three guards pretty good money to stay but all three probably won't play much at all. Could have used the money on conwell, but what do I know.

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