So some concerns I’m having...

[IUc2016 7,121]

I see more problems than that.  There seems to be no purpose to our screens.  There is bad spacing.  There is too much standing around.  There is too much panic as the shot clock winds down and we're 25 feet from the rim.

Literally every offense has those problems. Ours is exacerbated because we can’t shoot. You can’t space the defense out if you are no threat to hit a shot outside 10 feet.


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[mdn82 25,510]

It's not from what you said and it's not hate.  It is what it is.  Our offense isn't working.  

From what I said?

 

Me: No team is switching the fundamentals of our offense. Principals (reads, personnel if possible, and sets)? Yes.

 

You: IU switched their offense against UNLV in 87.

 

Me: No they did not. They ran the motion. They utilized their center to bring the ball up to create transition opportunities. They extended on defense.

 

Where is the confusion? Also, “our offense isn’t working” because we are missing wide open shots and layups. Those other issues you speak of are normal occurrences in college basketball. Some more than others depending on what sets/offense they run. Like you have said multiple times over the last couple of days. You hated this hire. Your hatred is blinding you on this. He has to turn this around somehow, and I feel we should be recruiting shooters. That’s on Archie. But the reasons you are hating is because you have always hated and you have stated as much over the last couple of days. Just say that as opposed to making things up or over-exasperating things that are normal occurrences in college basketball. At least I think that would be commendable because it’s true.

 

 

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[Josh 12,569]

1 minute ago, mdn82 said:

From what I said?

Me: No team is switching the fundamentals of our offense. Principals (reads, personnel if possible, and sets)? Yes.

You: IU switched their offense against UNLV in 87.

Me: No they did not. They ran the motion. They utilized their center to bring the ball up to create transition opportunities. They extended on defense.

Where is the confusion?


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I'm not sure where the confusion is.  You said "if that's what you gathered from what I said".  I said "it's not from what you said".

[mdn82 25,510]

Josh, would you really stray away from what got you the job due to kids you inherited (and got the other coach fired so his style wasn’t working either), or stick with what got you there while building a foundation? I can only imagine the hate you are going through to be posting this much, but it is what it is. We need to win more. He isn’t going to change how he coaches. No coach would change their whole identity to go from 18 to say 20 wins.


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Short term gain for long term health is never the answer. One of the biggest issues with Crean was he was so damn unpredictable people couldn’t get in groove. Never have I seen a coach switch their philosophies for short term gain. Principals or reads? Sometimes. Based on opponent. But never their their offense. Change sets? Some. But changing your offense will never outside of your couch on your PlayStation.
 
 
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Yeah, we can't switch our offense to run with UNLV.  Except Coach Knight did, and we won.  I know that's just one example, but good coaches can and should adjust their gameplan to win.

He didn’t switch his offense for that. He ran his motion. UNLV presses. Knight had Eyl or Calloway bring the ball up. If you beat a press it’s like transition. The only thing he really did differently was extend his defense further than he normally did. That isn’t changing the fundamentals of his offense which was suggested. Like I said earlier you change principals within the fundamentals. Put people in different spots. That isn’t changing his offense.
 
 
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[mdn82 25,510]

I'm not sure where the confusion is.  You said "if that's what you gathered from what I said".  I said "it's not from what you said".

Please read again


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[Josh 12,569]

Look, we're just arguing over opinions here.  Hopefully things aren't as gloomy as my posts and our losing streak show, and I don't think Archie is as blameless as the other side says.  We need massive improvements because this brand of IU basketball is unacceptable. How we get there is debatable by us, but we pay a man a lot of money to fix it.  Here's to hoping he does.

[IUc2016 7,121]

Look, we're just arguing over opinions here.  Hopefully things aren't as gloomy as my posts and our losing streak show, and I don't think Archie is as blameless as the other side says.  We need massive improvements because this brand of IU basketball is unacceptable. How we get there is debatable by us, but we pay a man a lot of money to fix it.  Here's to hoping he does.

Agreed. I’m not saying Archie is blameless as the roster construction has me a bit worried. Not enough guards or shooters.

But for this years roster, it is what it is. A middle of the pack big ten roster.


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[mdn82 25,510]

Look, we're just arguing over opinions here.  Hopefully things aren't as gloomy as my posts and our losing streak show, and I don't think Archie is as blameless as the other side says.  We need massive improvements because this brand of IU basketball is unacceptable. How we get there is debatable by us, but we pay a man a lot of money to fix it.  Here's to hoping he does.

Agreed on everything. There are changes that have to be made. I do feel one major area of concern is we can see we don’t have shooters to the degree we need. I don’t feel we are recruiting enough shooters. My main hope is he isn’t blinded by himself like Crean was and can see that deficiency. If he can’t we will probably be in the same boat in year 4 which won’t lead to a year 5. Plenty areas of concern and I don’t blame anyone for having them.

 

 

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[Maedhros 627]

Just now, mdn82 said:

Agreed on everything. There are changes that have to be made. I do feel one major area of concern is we can see we don’t have shooters to the degree we need. I don’t feel we are recruiting enough shooters. My main hope is he isn’t blinded by himself like Crean was and can see that deficiency. If he can’t we will probably be in the same boat in year 4 which won’t lead to a year 5.


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I don't think Crean was blind to the deficiencies on his roster. When we lacked shooters on the 2014 team, he went out and recruited James Blackmon, Robert Johnson, even Max Hoetzel. Then Noah Vonleh and Luke Fischer both left unexpectedly and the following year's team lacked size, so Crean recruited Thomas Bryant, Juwan Morgan and OG Anunoby.

The weakness he was unable to address was the point guard position following Yogi's departure. After going in on guys like Shake Milton, Bryant Crawford, Tony Carr, and Bruce Brown, he was left with Devonte Green and Josh Newkirk on the roster. Arguably those misses are what cost Crean his job, but I don't think it was for lack of recognition or effort. Heck, we almost landed Tremont Waters, now a pre-season All-American at LSU.

My hope for Archie's recruiting is that we're able to reload instead of constantly having to plug holes. With our deficiencies in shooting likely to continue with the 2019 class, I worry that we're already behind the curve.

[pumpfake 3,930]

In my far, far from expert opinion, I thik we're seeing some consequences of a decision Archie had to make: Do you change the style of play to suit the roster? OR, do you stick with your offensive and defensive philosophy even if the personnel is not adequate or suited to playing that way? Do you, teach and insist on running what you want, in hopes that the available players will be able to pick it up and (more importantly) become proficient at it in the future (for sophs and freshmen).  The former might be best for short term success, and the later for long term success.  I can't make a judgement, but that's why I'm just a guy that sits on my butt and watches on TV while the coaches get paid the big bucks.

[IUc2016 7,121]

Shooting would help. But not passing the ball around and just setting ball screens makes us incredibly easy to defend.  

 

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You’re assuming we are passing the ball around because we don’t have a good look. Mcroberts and smith pass up so many wide open looks because they are afraid to shoot, and just can’t shoot. That’s not on the offensive scheme, that’s on personnel.  

 

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Edit: just saw I read your post wrong. But even then I disagree. Because Mcroberts and smith pass up so many shots that force us into tough shots in the paint.

[ap2345 7,571]

IU starts Juwon Morgan ( all Big Ten caliber), Romeo Langford (5* top 10 player), and two 4* recruits, Rob Phinisee snd Justin Smith.  I know some people will defend Archie mo matter what, but let's not make things up in order to defend him.

Recruit rankings don’t mean anything. Perea and Hollowell both say hello. People get those wrong all the time. Mostly because they are based on a players athleticism and size rather than skill and b-ball IQ. I’m basing things off what I see on the court instead of rankings. I’ve been critical of CAM on here several times.


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[Uspshoosier 45,156]

Look the Nebraska loss hurt. No denying that. But if you’re going off rankings, Nebraska is a more talented team than IU. It’s painful to say it.
 
Glenn Watson - 75.
Isaac Copeland - 24 (5 star)
James Palmer Jr. - 105
Isaiah Roby - 133
Thomas Allen - 103.
 
Glynn Watson is a senior. James Palmer and Isaac Copeland are 5th year seniors. Isaiah Roby is a junior.
Thomas Allen is a sophomore.
 
They have more talent and experience than IU. Tough pill to swallow, but it’s the truth. Nobody is making that up to defend Archie.
 
And do you want me to keep going?
 
I can do this with Michigan, Michigan State, Maryland, Iowa and any other top big ten team you want. It’s not pretty, but it’s the truth.
 
 
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Palmer was First team All-B1G as a junior we well


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[LamarCheeks 18,144]

3 hours ago, IUc2016 said:

Look the Nebraska loss hurt. No denying that. But if you’re going off rankings, Nebraska is a more talented team than IU. It’s painful to say it.

 

Glenn Watson - 75.

Isaac Copeland - 24 (5 star)

James Palmer Jr. - 105

Isaiah Roby - 133

Thomas Allen - 103.

 

Glynn Watson is a senior. James Palmer and Isaac Copeland are 5th year seniors. Isaiah Roby is a junior.

Thomas Allen is a sophomore.

 

They have more talent and experience than IU. Tough pill to swallow, but it’s the truth. Nobody is making that up to defend Archie.

 

And do you want me to keep going?

 

I can do this with Michigan, Michigan State, Maryland, Iowa and any other top big ten team you want. It’s not pretty, but it’s the truth.

 

 

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I'm not necessarily upset with the Nebraska loss -- OK, that's not true; I am. But what really pissed me off is that Nebraska led from buzzer to buzzer, we never really seriously challenged and our guys just seemed uninterested. I hate cliches, but the plain and simple truth is that we did not show up for that game. Is that on the coach? Maybe. You really shouldn't have to coach effort, but it certainly didn't seem to be there. 

[woodenshoemanHoosierfan 6,182]

IU starts Juwon Morgan ( all Big Ten caliber), Romeo Langford (5* top 10 player), and two 4* recruits, Rob Phinisee snd Justin Smith.  I know some people will defend Archie mo matter what, but let's not make things up in order to defend him.

And there are some who have been anti Archie since the hire and will always find reasons to criticize him.

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[woodenshoemanHoosierfan 6,182]

Yes rob Phinesse is a FRESHMAN that was ranked 125ish. He is starting at point guard on a big ten team. Look at the other top big ten teams and tell me who he should start over at THIS point in his career.  
Cassius Winston? Ranked: 31 (junior)
Carson Edwards? 118 (junior)
Glenn Watson? 75 (senior)
Zavier Simpson - 67 (junior)
Anthony Cowan Jr.? 62 (junior)
 
The top teams in this league have an experienced, and talented point guard. We do not. I love rob, but he is not there YET.
 
IU starts Zach Mcroberts. A walk-on. Not only is he a walk-on, he has 15 total point this year and won’t shoot the ball. What other top big ten team would he play major minutes for?
 
Justin Smith. A sophomore who is still developing. Ranked around 100. Maybe he should be more productive than he is, but I don’t think that’s on Archie. Once you watch him play, you can’t tell me he is a starting caliber big ten player (for a top team) at this point in his career.
 
IU’s first guy off the bench is Al Durham. A sophomore Ranked around 230. If you want to go off pure rankings, he is not a guy you should rely heavily on in his sophomore year if you want to be top 3-4 in the Big ten.
 
Yes IU starts Romeo, another freshman. And Juwan a senior. This team has 12 wins because they have carried them despite the glaring holes in the rest of the roster. Two players don’t get it done in this league without quality experience around them.
 
 
Take 2016-2017 Michigan State for example.
Started THREE five stars Cassius Winston, Miles bridges, and Joshua Langford. A high four star in nick ward. That team went 18-13 and barely made the tournament in a weak big ten.
 
TALENTED EXPERIENCE MATTERS. IU doesn’t have nearly enough of it.
 
 
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Quit with the logic

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[woodenshoemanHoosierfan 6,182]

From what I said?
 
Me: No team is switching the fundamentals of our offense. Principals (reads, personnel if possible, and sets)? Yes.
 
You: IU switched their offense against UNLV in 87.
 
Me: No they did not. They ran the motion. They utilized their center to bring the ball up to create transition opportunities. They extended on defense.
 
Where is the confusion? Also, “our offense isn’t working” because we are missing wide open shots and layups. Those other issues you speak of are normal occurrences in college basketball. Some more than others depending on what sets/offense they run. Like you have said multiple times over the last couple of days. You hated this hire. Your hatred is blinding you on this. He has to turn this around somehow, and I feel we should be recruiting shooters. That’s on Archie. But the reasons you are hating is because you have always hated and you have stated as much over the last couple of days. Just say that as opposed to making things up or over-exasperating things that are normal occurrences in college basketball. At least I think that would be commendable because it’s true.
 
 
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Well said

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[Baltimore Hoosier 986]

6 hours ago, IUc2016 said:

Yes rob Phinesse is a FRESHMAN that was ranked 125ish. He is starting at point guard on a big ten team. Look at the other top big ten teams and tell me who he should start over at THIS point in his career.

 

Cassius Winston? Ranked: 31 (junior)

Carson Edwards? 118 (junior)

Glenn Watson? 75 (senior)

Zavier Simpson - 67 (junior)

Anthony Cowan Jr.? 62 (junior)

 

The top teams in this league have an experienced, and talented point guard. We do not. I love rob, but he is not there YET.

 

IU starts Zach Mcroberts. A walk-on. Not only is he a walk-on, he has 15 total point this year and won’t shoot the ball. What other top big ten team would he play major minutes for?

 

Justin Smith. A sophomore who is still developing. Ranked around 100. Maybe he should be more productive than he is, but I don’t think that’s on Archie. Once you watch him play, you can’t tell me he is a starting caliber big ten player (for a top team) at this point in his career.

 

IU’s first guy off the bench is Al Durham. A sophomore Ranked around 230. If you want to go off pure rankings, he is not a guy you should rely heavily on in his sophomore year if you want to be top 3-4 in the Big ten.

 

Yes IU starts Romeo, another freshman. And Juwan a senior. This team has 12 wins because they have carried them despite the glaring holes in the rest of the roster. Two players don’t get it done in this league without quality experience around them.

 

 

Take 2016-2017 Michigan State for example.

Started THREE five stars Cassius Winston, Miles bridges, and Joshua Langford. A high four star in nick ward. That team went 18-13 and barely made the tournament in a weak big ten.

 

TALENTED EXPERIENCE MATTERS. IU doesn’t have nearly enough of it.

 

 

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I hate using High School rankings to prove a point about college players because there are so many exceptions and under/over achievers. That being said, I do agree with what you're saying in terms of needing talented experience.. This team basically has none except for Morgan..

Has anyone really assessed the remaining schedule? I'd say in terms of making the tournament, this team should be in full panic mode. Where are wins going to come from coming down the stretch? @ Rutgers? Eh. At home vs Ohio State? UGH. Not to mention there are still 2 games vs Michigan State and Iowa.. I think this team is NIT-bound at best barring a total turnaround.

[IUc2016 7,121]

11 minutes ago, Baltimore Hoosier said:

I hate using High School rankings to prove a point about college players because there are so many exceptions and under/over achievers. That being said, I do agree with what you're saying in terms of needing talented experience.. This team basically has none except for Morgan..

Has anyone really assessed the remaining schedule? I'd say in terms of making the tournament, this team should be in full panic mode. Where are wins going to come from coming down the stretch? @ Rutgers? Eh. At home vs Ohio State? UGH. Not to mention there are still 2 games vs Michigan State and Iowa.. I think this team is NIT-bound at best barring a total turnaround.

Well, high school rankings are pretty good indicators of talent and impact. Yes with any rule their are exceptions, but for the most part the recruiting services get it right. 

However, I only used the recruiting rankings because he did. He stated we had 4 and 5 stars in our starting lineup. Which is true. But if someone wants to use the recruit rankings to show we have a lot of talent, I am going to use that same logic to show that according to those services, we are nowhere near the top of the league in terms of talent/experience. 

So, it is actually the best way to prove the point I was making. 

[HoosierDYT 1,748]

I hate using High School rankings to prove a point about college players because there are so many exceptions and under/over achievers. That being said, I do agree with what you're saying in terms of needing talented experience.. This team basically has none except for Morgan..
Has anyone really assessed the remaining schedule? I'd say in terms of making the tournament, this team should be in full panic mode. Where are wins going to come from coming down the stretch? @ Rutgers? Eh. At home vs Ohio State? UGH. Not to mention there are still 2 games vs Michigan State and Iowa.. I think this team is NIT-bound at best barring a total turnaround.

With our current record, we’re currently a 7-9 seed. This comes from various sources


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